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H.B.M.C. wrote:I do like how the thread's base premise is predicated on the fact that disliking GW's prices is 'crying'.

You're the one associating "disliking" with "crying". The OP did not insinuate such a thing and only said "crying" and never mentioned "disliking".

Not everything is about your personal agenda.

Capt. Camping wrote:

Why most people buy from GW? because they grew up with GW and is the only product they know. It has mass marketing from video games and is what mostly found in FLGS

I have no pulse on what other people think.
I just do what I want.
That said, GW is getting too expensive for me.
Fortunately, I have already finished my army.
So now I just play and paint.

DarknessEternal wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I do like how the thread's base premise is predicated on the fact that disliking GW's prices is 'crying'.

You're the one associating "disliking" with "crying". The OP did not insinuate such a thing and only said "crying" and never mentioned "disliking".

Not everything is about your personal agenda.

I suppose some people could be so happy that they are paying more that they are overcome with tears of joy.

it makes me proud that I'm part of a hobby that values it's products and intellectual property properly.

To me it's like wanting a steak. I can go to Mortons and get an awesome Prime Rib for $60 and if I can afford it, I'll get my moneys worth. If you can't afford the steak, then you are going to argue that The Sizzler's $9.99 steak is just as good and that Mortons is overpriced and how dare they charge so much for beef. Bottom line, it's better quality..prepared by better chefs...and the experience is better.

That's GW, yes...it's a $60 steak....but man, it tastes pretty good and if you can afford it...it's worth every penny.

When people complain about how expensive GW is, I tell them how much it is to fill up my Ford Truck...it's the price of a battleforce. I'll eat that Mortons steak every day of the week TBH.

Palindrome wrote:
I suppose some people could be so happy that they are paying more that they are overcome with tears of joy.

Are you seriously unable to tell the difference between not liking something and whining about something?

The other reason why many people only knows GW is because there are thousands of stuff you can find in ebay from retired players.

Also a lot of players are lazy or ignorant to use the internet to find other alternatives to GW. In theminiaturespage forum, there is a guy who found a player who use to think GW was the whole wargaming. That player did not realize there was a universe of different miniatures and rules out there. How ignorant.

I believe OP meant to put decrying, not crying. Poor word choice.

I'm in love with Dakka, though, because they find so many ways to attack everything but the argument. It's amusing, no sarcasm


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Capt. Camping wrote:The other reason why many people only knows GW is because there are thousands of stuff you can find in ebay from retired players.

Also a lot of players are lazy or ignorant to use the internet to find other alternatives to GW. In theminiaturespage forum, there is a guy who found a player who use to think GW was the whole wargaming. That player did not realize there was a universe of different miniatures and rules out there. How ignorant.

How condescending of you. I'm sure many people look up to you with that kind of attitude.

I play 40k exclusively, as none of the other games or models interest me. Yet, I often explain to people at my FLGS that there are other great game systems, and that anyone can play more than one system. I challenge them, even, to look into other games, as that's the only way someone can be happy with their hobby.

Much better than calling them lazy or ignorant.

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:it makes me proud that I'm part of a hobby that values it's products and intellectual property properly.

To me it's like wanting a steak. I can go to Mortons and get an awesome Prime Rib for $60 and if I can afford it, I'll get my moneys worth. If you can't afford the steak, then you are going to argue that The Sizzler's $9.99 steak is just as good and that Mortons is overpriced and how dare they charge so much for beef. Bottom line, it's better quality..prepared by better chefs...and the experience is better.

That's GW, yes...it's a $60 steak....but man, it tastes pretty good and if you can afford it...it's worth every penny.
.

trouble is with the advent of finecast your chances of getting a steak filled with gristle are reasonably high ( 20% or above from what i've seen and read), is that $60 dollar load of gristle worth it or is the sizzler steak?

I don't have to listen to other peoples gripes to come to my own conclusion.
I'm 25 years old and an Iraq war veteran and I play with little plastic men. Alittle shamefull but everyone has their guilty pleasures. What gets me though is when I show off my models I get ooo's and aww's but the topic immediatly turns to how much money that plastic box (aka tanks/apc) cost
"Oh this here? $50, but I got it across the pond for only $40!!"
Its the look of horror on peoples faces on how much I spent on plastic army men that really make me feel ashamed.
I love the hobby though and will stick to just beating myself up because I buy plastic crack.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Palindrome wrote:
I suppose some people could be so happy that they are paying more that they are overcome with tears of joy.

Are you seriously unable to tell the difference between not liking something and whining about something?

Oh I can tell the difference. I am curious as to what you thought the OP meant though, its not as if he hasn't made his feelings abundantly clear by his word choice.

Palindrome wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Palindrome wrote:
I suppose some people could be so happy that they are paying more that they are overcome with tears of joy.

Are you seriously unable to tell the difference between not liking something and whining about something?

Oh I can tell the difference. I am curious as to what you thought the OP meant though, its not as if he hasn't made his feelings abundantly clear by his word choice.

I think you've got it backwards.

Crying is disliking, but disliking is not necessarily crying.

I will continue to buy GW products even though I PERSONALLY believe them to be overpriced.

I used to simply buy whatever model I wanted to play with. Now I have to do some thinking about adding that $70 model is worth the fun ill get out of it in games vs price.

Right now I am assembling a 2nd WHFB army. I have only just begun but due to expense, I am building it up more slowly.

I will most likely stop collecting GW models after this army as I will own 2 armies for both 40k and Fantasy.

Of course I will revisist buying GW when army books/codexes are released for the armies I play.

I will continue to play both 40k and Fantasy for many many years to come I believe.

It is not that I am upset that prices go up. What I am upset is that there is no reason it should. I might not be an expert in the area of plastic mini models, however, I have worked in the auto production for 8 years. Every year at the factory where each part is made, later to be made into a car (you would be surprised how many there are), after a year, the factory producing the parts is expected to have a price decrease of about 1-3%. Each model has about a life of 6 years, therefore, the final run of a model is about 6 - 18% less to produce than the first run of the model. Not saying the savings is passed onto the customer, however, it does offset over the time of the vehicle and its sales.

Now, GW has used the same plastic molds for some of the current models now for ten years or more. Maybe since plastic is a petroleum product, cost for material costs more, but, I doubt it matches the inflation of there price increases.

All in all, I just want to know the reason for the price increase other than "well, its that time of year again".

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:it makes me proud that I'm part of a hobby that values it's products and intellectual property properly.

To me it's like wanting a steak. I can go to Mortons and get an awesome Prime Rib for $60 and if I can afford it, I'll get my moneys worth. If you can't afford the steak, then you are going to argue that The Sizzler's $9.99 steak is just as good and that Mortons is overpriced and how dare they charge so much for beef. Bottom line, it's better quality..prepared by better chefs...and the experience is better.

That's GW, yes...it's a $60 steak....but man, it tastes pretty good and if you can afford it...it's worth every penny.

When people complain about how expensive GW is, I tell them how much it is to fill up my Ford Truck...it's the price of a battleforce. I'll eat that Mortons steak every day of the week TBH.

So those Finecast minis at my FLGS with the bubbles, holes, and generally malformed areas are like Morton's prime rib?

That Sizzler is sounding a lot better all the sudden.

Milisim wrote:I will continue to buy GW products even though I PERSONALLY believe them to be overpriced.

I used to simply buy whatever model I wanted to play with. Now I have to do some thinking about adding that $70 model is worth the fun ill get out of it in games vs price.

Right now I am assembling a 2nd WHFB army. I have only just begun but due to expense, I am building it up more slowly.

I will most likely stop collecting GW models after this army as I will own 2 armies for both 40k and Fantasy.

Of course I will revisist buying GW when army books/codexes are released for the armies I play.

I will continue to play both 40k and Fantasy for many many years to come I believe.

I would like to commend you on your good sense. It is amazing how many people don't have it.

Well, I find the OP incredibly offensive. The arguments against GW are getting better informed and well reasoned compared to last time (imo) and to dismiss them as whining or crying or acting like babies or saying we should be happy this is the only problem we have is quite stale and ill reasoned.

No other Miniature game really covers the same aesthetic that GW does...so I'd say its safe.

brettz123 wrote:

Milisim wrote:I will continue to buy GW products even though I PERSONALLY believe them to be overpriced.

I used to simply buy whatever model I wanted to play with. Now I have to do some thinking about adding that $70 model is worth the fun ill get out of it in games vs price.

Right now I am assembling a 2nd WHFB army. I have only just begun but due to expense, I am building it up more slowly.

I will most likely stop collecting GW models after this army as I will own 2 armies for both 40k and Fantasy.

Of course I will revisist buying GW when army books/codexes are released for the armies I play.

I will continue to play both 40k and Fantasy for many many years to come I believe.

I would like to commend you on your good sense. It is amazing how many people don't have it.

Echo, echo, echo, echo...

My 2 cents from a former player:

GW definitely has style and story down, and I believe that that is partly what is being paid for anymore. They are sort of an elite golf club that has wide "appeal" in the sense that the name is recognized and respected, even if for the wrong reasons. I also think that they are largely responsible for increasing the popularity of tabletop gaming, which, again, lends to their credit in terms of respect. To me, the problem with the company enters when you view it from two viewpoints: 1)Evolution of the gaming industry, and 2)Soundness from a gaming perspective (art, style, story aside).

To address the first point, from the history I understand of GW they were pioneers in the beginning, and maintained this through roughly 4th edition (I started playing at the transition period from 3rd to 4th). It was around this time that many other legitimate games started to gain ground, and many companies saw an opening to compete with GW for the same gaming space. The internet was also rapidly expanding by this point and changing the way both marketing and sales worked. GW seemed to staunchly take the stance of turning their back to this evolution of the industry and fight tooth-and-nail to maintain exactly what it had already established (the mass of litigation and lack of online availability ensued).

The second point is what really turned me away from the game. It became readily apparent over the years that GW had no real intention of creating a good game for its tournament scene. Yes it has story, yes it has character, yes it has good mechanics, but it absolutely does not nor will have objective or subjective balance beyond a few of the army choices. Dealing with minor balance issues is typically not a problem, and is expected in games universally. Tournaments typically point out these issues and the makers, if they are driven by customer demands, typically find a way to address said issues (Infinity and Malifaux have both proved to be good examples of this ongoing process). Most other game companies due this via errata and online wikis and online forums to deal with official changes and rulings. GW does not do any of that and go so far as to relegate certain armies into near worthlessness with each codex they release. For those players looking for strategy and tactical games that offer numerous approaches and varied play styles, GW is a poor choice. For players who don't like needing cookie-cutter armies and model lists to stay competitive, GW is a poor choice.

I've since turned to Infinity to fill my need for high-level strategical thinking that is insanely balanced across the board... it doesn't hurt that CB has some amazing miniatures to boot at rather reasonable prices. Malifaux fills my need for story and fun as much as 40k ever did, and it has more than enough character for me. All in all, I've found the competition to be much more enjoyable, competitive, balanced, and cost-effective than GW, which is why I do my darndest to demo games and attract attention in my LGS.

Surtur wrote:Well, I find the OP incredibly offensive. The arguments against GW are getting better informed and well reasoned compared to last time (imo) and to dismiss them as whining or crying or acting like babies or saying we should be happy this is the only problem we have is quite stale and ill reasoned.

Why are you pushing your personal agenda? Try reading only what is written.

The OP didn't say everyone who dislikes GW's pricing policies is "crying or acting like babies". He asked how do people who ARE crying and acting like babies affect the way you think about the products.

Btw i wanted to thank the guy who mentioned perry miniatures, i had a look round the site and am thinking of buying Korean garrison archers as my kossite woodsmen. I really like those minis!
For me, some good has come out of this thread

DarknessEternal wrote:

The OP didn't say everyone who dislikes GW's pricing policies is "crying or acting like babies". He asked how do people who ARE crying and acting like babies affect the way you think about the products.

The OP neglected to make that distinction.

I am of two minds on this.

On the one hand, this is a voluntary hobby and I hate whiners of any stripe.

On the other, I feel for those who can't afford to collect and play this game with the ease that many of us take for granted.

Still, GW should be able to raise its prices anytime they want. If you find yourself priced out of the hobby, well, 'thems the breaks' despite how much you have 'invested' in the past.

Loyalty to a company accounts for nothing despite how 'wonderful' it would be. I can also, with confidence, rest assured that should a bigger and badder game universe rear its head the players of 40k will leave in droves with little regard for GW's well being.

I feel the same as when I hear complaints about the cost of cigarettes, smokeless tobacco, and beer. Quit!

Otherwise I don't mind paying for my bad habits.

Palindrome wrote:
The OP neglected to make that distinction.

Were the two sentences he wrote really too long to read completely?

Honestly, I went to a new gaming store this weekend that opened up recently selling Infinity and Warmachine stuff. I found the models to be barely any cheaper than Games Workshop 40k models.
Also, most non-gaming model kits around are not much cheaper than Games Workshop models. e.g an Airfix type of tank will cost £15.00-20.00 while a GW Chimera will cost 20 quid and a LRBT will cost £30.00 but are usually superior models.

Of course the only thing is that most 40k armies you need many many times more models that gaming systems such as Infinity (unless you play GK of course). But this is about the only issue and if you want small Infinity sized games then you can equally play 500-750 point 40k games for the same price with some 40k armies.

I admit I used to be "bitching at GW prices" all the time, but honestly looking at competing gaming systems and models they aren't all that bad. Sure, some things are not acceptable; like finecast is poor in my opinion for the price and the price of paints is not good value for money, with Vallejo being cheaper and of equal quality imo. Also the way they have treated fanfilms and fiction in the past has been questionable. So I still have a lot of criticism and scrutiny for them.

I think the fact so many people crying about the high prices had made me look into it more objectively and found out that actually the crying is often not justifiable.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Surtur wrote:Well, I find the OP incredibly offensive. The arguments against GW are getting better informed and well reasoned compared to last time (imo) and to dismiss them as whining or crying or acting like babies or saying we should be happy this is the only problem we have is quite stale and ill reasoned.

Why are you pushing your personal agenda? Try reading only what is written.

The OP didn't say everyone who dislikes GW's pricing policies is "crying or acting like babies". He asked how do people who ARE crying and acting like babies affect the way you think about the products.

"How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the products? How do you handle these people when you encounter them?"

Given that he spoke in broad generalities that the forum is oft to do, it's safer to assume he was labeling everyone who complained. I rather think that you are the one pushing an agenda since you've been flying in the face of people who were targeted by the OP and telling them to be quiet. As for people crying and being a baby, please by all means, name names. Give us some examples.

I suppose that if the points the people were 'crying' about were invalid, I'd complain a lot more. The thing is, so far, those points have never been more valid.

My GW spending was looking more like my Triathlon spending, and that was quite the wake-up call. That is a no go, and at least Triathlon gives the added bonus of keeping me in shape.

Points can be valid or invalid even if you don't agree with them. In the realm of GW's pricing, the fact is that there have been two price increases in the last 6 months, and neither one was a simple inflation adjustment. The Stormraven is now $82.50. What was it two weeks ago? $66 I believe? Like it or hate it, that is a 25% price increase that literally happened overnight; and wasn't the Stormraven (which launched last year, correct?) only $56 when it first came out (I could be wrong on that one, as I've slept since the release...)?

The valid point to be made is that the price increase is dramatically high regardless of your level of income or 'love for the hobby.'

Palindrome wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

The OP didn't say everyone who dislikes GW's pricing policies is "crying or acting like babies". He asked how do people who ARE crying and acting like babies affect the way you think about the products.

The OP neglected to make that distinction.

True but is it so hard to not read bad intentions into everything we read on this site? It shouldn't surprise me but somehow it still does how people insist on being affronted, insulted, and disrespected (sometimes all at the same time).


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Surtur wrote:
Given that he spoke in broad generalities that the forum is oft to do, it's safer to assume he was labeling everyone who complained.

Actually it is just safer not to ASSume at all.