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They appealed to the "wargamer" market, but totally bypassed the "hobbyist" segment. Anyone who took a pride in their models just didn't need apply. Turned out that the "wargamer" segment of the market are prepared to pay way less for their toys than the hobbyists are.

I think the actual packaging had a lot to do with it too. They were packaged less like "wargames" models, and more like "tiny toy action figures". I think a lot of people who might actually have enjoyed trying the game passed them up on the shelf because they presented in too much of a "toy" like fashion. As someone who has both a mortgage AND a room full of tiny plastic space-men, I realize that sounds a bit silly, but packaging makes a huge difference in perception.

Tycho wrote:

As someone who has both a mortgage AND a room full of tiny plastic space-men, I realize that sounds a bit silly, but packaging makes a huge difference in perception.

One thing that I think works against a lot of newer companies is that they put up 3D renderings not photos of the actual models on sale. I'm willing to bet many don't try out new companies because all they can see are a couple of painted models and a lot of 3D renderings and they think "bet they aren't as good in reality".

It's one thing that Spartan Games did wrong - whilst those who were fans knew that what you saw in the render was what you'd get in the model - anyone new would be very sceptical considering how few photos they actually had.

To my mind its a huge problem - wargame packaging should have the model assembled and painted up on the box - ideally on the front if not at least on the back.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Seems there are a couple of physical/digital hybrid games out there in the toy world.

Disney dimensions? I think? You buy figures and that lets you add them to your game.

"Toys to life" was a thing for several years, but has run its course.

Skylanders encapsulated content via non-collectible paywall figures and expansion items. They sold ridiculous numbers and ridiculous profit via what was effectively a DLC model tied to physical keys. Then they got greedy and killed the golden goose. I think they'll still launch an 8th year line, but it'll be a much lower interest.

Disney Infinity came shortly thereafter, and was cancelled immediately after the 3rd year product hit the shelves.

Lego Dimensions is dead or dying. Smaller product line, but sustainable.

As these are a video game DLC model, it's not so complicated. Especially as Skylanders simply tells the same story every year, with a tiny twist.


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Caliginous wrote:
They also were very innovative in their pre-painted concept with Battlefiled. I remember the absolute vitriol thrown their way on the interwebz when they announced the pre-paints, but games like X-Wing have really shown there is a market for this concept.

Prepaint clearly works for X-wing, specifically, which has a very strong collector base willing to spend BIG money on the very distinctive models that look "just so". It would also work for Star Trek, if the property had been managed better.

Generic army men in an unremarkable style? Not so much. Same issue with the AT-43 and Dust prepaints. Too niche to support more expensive prepaint. Too bad, as the Therians were well-designed.

I remember there being such a buzz about Battlefield Evo and how that games pre-paints would start a trend in the industry. It just didn't happen, although I think there were a myriad of reasons for that.

Fun fact that Andy Chambers' SST rules were initially meant to be for 40k 4th edition, and would have constituted a complete re-write of the game and supporting codex books. But, the company took a decision not to make that step (and perhaps upset the apple cart, although there were a lot of gamers that were lamenting the route 40k had taken, even back then). So Andy left GW and took the rules to Mongoose, who built the rules into SST.

I don't think I've ever met anyone who didn't enjoy the SST rules (apart from the grenade launcher scatter rules, which were awful!) It's interesting to imagine how 40k would have worked with them, certainly a big departure from what we have now

I'm still wishing we'd have gotten the fake 40k 6E rules - much better than the actual 6E rules that ruined the game

I don't think I've ever met anyone who didn't enjoy the SST rules (apart from the grenade launcher scatter rules, which were awful!) It's interesting to imagine how 40k would have worked with them, certainly a big departure from what we have now

Agreed one-million percent. The reactions system alone would have fixed a great deal of what a lot of 40K players still complain about. That said, like any innovation, they weren't without their issues. At smaller scales, the SST ruleset is *easily* the best wargame I've ever played, and second place isn't even close, but once SST started to "mature", there were some issues that MGP never properly addressed ...

On SST, I've never been especially persuaded that Big Bad Andy C took prototype 40k rules to Mongoose.

At the risk of starting an argument (I'm not, just giving an opinion), anything Andy C wrote for 40k would belong to GW. Hell, if I sent in some fan art or fan fiction, their terms and conditions mean it becomes their sole property.

Apply that to someone, anyone on the actual payroll, and I hope you can see why it just doesn't sit right.

I may of course be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. But I just don't buy it.

 Pacific wrote:
I remember there being such a buzz about Battlefield Evo and how that games pre-paints would start a trend in the industry. It just didn't happen, although I think there were a myriad of reasons for that.

Only really one main reason: they were rubbish.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On SST, I've never been especially persuaded that Big Bad Andy C took prototype 40k rules to Mongoose.

At the risk of starting an argument (I'm not, just giving an opinion), anything Andy C wrote for 40k would belong to GW. Hell, if I sent in some fan art or fan fiction, their terms and conditions mean it becomes their sole property.

Apply that to someone, anyone on the actual payroll, and I hope you can see why it just doesn't sit right.

I may of course be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. But I just don't buy it.

The 40k rules he wrote (if he did) would have belonged to GW. But game mechanics aren't protected by copyright, so all that would be needed is to rewrite the rules using the same mechanics but with different wording.

If what he (allegedly) presented to GW was just an outline rather than a fully written ruleset, even easier.

I don't think it's ever been confirmed, but it's certainly possible.


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Of course, it's also possible that he got permission from GW to publish those rules himself when (if) they turned them down...

Tycho wrote:

I don't think I've ever met anyone who didn't enjoy the SST rules (apart from the grenade launcher scatter rules, which were awful!) It's interesting to imagine how 40k would have worked with them, certainly a big departure from what we have now

Agreed one-million percent. The reactions system alone would have fixed a great deal of what a lot of 40K players still complain about. That said, like any innovation, they weren't without their issues. At smaller scales, the SST ruleset is *easily* the best wargame I've ever played, and second place isn't even close, but once SST started to "mature", there were some issues that MGP never properly addressed ...

Sst is one of my most fondly remembered wargames that never was. Easily ten years ahead of its time. Brilliant, but flawed mechanics. As cool as reactions were, they had problems. To the point where 90% of the damage the mi did wasn't in their bloody turn because they could keep reacting against everything. I remember talking to some guys who I think were playtesters, or at least 'in the know', or so they claimed, and they were talking about a second edition of the game where reactions were toned down so each unit got one reaction in the opponents tuen. But then... it went away.

Battlefield evo was interesting. Wasn't there a ww2 version as well - I vaguely remember reading rules for finns.

And tycho, for what it's worth, Matt said to me on these boards once that their judge dredd game was the spiritual successor to sst. I liked the sound of that, but I've never read the Jd rules or could claim much interest in the game as the models were, in my mind at least, uninspiring. :(

Great thread - very nostalgic, but quite a sad read in places...

I was going to give a mention to ebob miniatures. Great sculptor (Robert Souter I believe) who has worked for quite a few minis companies as freelance, I was really taken though with his WW2 POW game 'The Great Escape' - Only a small range of minis, but nicely sculpted on the whole and initially supported with some free downloadable printable scenery (I still use them for my WW2 games).

He seemed to disappear though a few years ago and no news / updates on the website or ebob facebook page. In fact there were a few disgruntled customers who had placed orders, with their money taken but no product delivered or any comms...

It appears though,that ebob are back up and running as the website has been rebranded this year as is dated 2017 (although i preferred the old one)

Tycho wrote:

sculpts were notoriously bad. So bad in fact that Matt had to go online only hours after the first stores recieved theirs and started freaking out. I'll never forget him saying "This is unnaceptabe and I will get to tthe bottom of it! This is not what we approved!" or something along those lines. This was followed a bit later by him saying "I spent some time going around to the local shops looking at the EVO mminis and you know - they're not half bad.". Battlefield Evolution died right then and there. It was a classic example of MGP having a great idea, failing to deliver, and then failing to take responsibility for said failure to deliver. For those of you who don't know what we're talking about - picture the little rubber "GUTS" toys from the 80s but a little taller, a little thinner and with about the same paint job and that's what the EVo minis were.

That's right I had forgotten the debacle after the game shipped. Wasn't there a claim that the prototypes that were approved didn't match the actual production minis that shipped? So many of us were crushed by how disappointing the minis were - we were all so keen to get into modern 28mm gaming on the scale that Evo promised. We ended up playing it a couple of years later and I really liked it - SST was better, but I still thought the game was a lot of fun. But we only had a few games to give it a go. My FLGS *still* has some Evo miniatures in storage...

Tycho wrote:
MGP had amazing ideas for games, but was simply incapable of really delivering. The saying in my area at the time was "You've been 'goosed". Meaning you bought into the hype but now now you have a pewter Brain bug that came with two left halves and 9oz of extra flashing covering a 3 oz model. We always felt like the ultimate combo would be for MGP's idea men to get together with GW's design and production staff. THAT would have produced some truly incredible results imo.

Very true. Take Rogue Trooper for example. Great idea. But does it *actually* translate into a viable miniatures war game? The idea is great: dystopian hard science fiction, two distinct factions, lots of hardware. But who would actually play it? The golden age for the comic was 30 years ago. Would it be continually supported? Would there be any player base? Would the minis be good? I was so close to banging the "pledge" button on KS all those years ago, but asked myself these questions, and then just put my hands up and backed away slowly.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On SST, I've never been especially persuaded that Big Bad Andy C took prototype 40k rules to Mongoose.

At the risk of starting an argument (I'm not, just giving an opinion), anything Andy C wrote for 40k would belong to GW. Hell, if I sent in some fan art or fan fiction, their terms and conditions mean it becomes their sole property.

Apply that to someone, anyone on the actual payroll, and I hope you can see why it just doesn't sit right.

I may of course be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. But I just don't buy it.

Separately, can I ask why the 'big bad' description, has the impression of him changed now?

Remember that we are talking about the GW of 15 years ago, not the one of today that I've heard has very strict (including instant dismissal) controls in place around the design department.

So, one that was probably a bit more personable, not 'blokes down the pub together writing rules on a napkin' quite level, but certainly a close cadre of colleagues who enjoyed what they did, had known each other for many years (Andy being a central part of the team by this point) and probably wouldn't have had to sign NDAs for pet projects and WIPs that they were playing around with as part of their jobs.

I should imagine that it was as simple as 'I've got this idea, it's in an alpha stage, what do you think of it?' Sales/head office said no, and so off he went. He wasn't the first of the design team or the last, and others left for similar reasons, as either they or the direction of GW took different paths.

Of course that's just my impression, built on comments going around at the time (and I have more certainty around SST being written by AC, and it being based on a prototype 40k version, than I do on his reasons for leaving GW which can only ever really be conjecture)

Anything that he created while at GW may be GW.

That said, rules are mechanics and instructions. Numbers are stats. None of which have any copyright or IP at their core. The only copyright is on the specific expression (i.e. wording) of the rule, and there, only to the extent that the wording goes beyond the minimum amount required to express an idea.

A 40k 4E ruleset lightly massaged for SST could be nearly identical from a mechanics standpoint, and GW couldn't do a damn thing about it.

Otherwise, you'd have someone writing "roll a d6" and collecting royalties every time that phrase was used.

 Stevefamine wrote:
Mageknight 1.0 and Dungeons and Pirates of the Spanish Main were 10/10 on initial release

Absolutely LOVED Pirates. Sadly, hardly anyone else played...

 Pacific wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On SST, I've never been especially persuaded that Big Bad Andy C took prototype 40k rules to Mongoose.

At the risk of starting an argument (I'm not, just giving an opinion), anything Andy C wrote for 40k would belong to GW. Hell, if I sent in some fan art or fan fiction, their terms and conditions mean it becomes their sole property.

Apply that to someone, anyone on the actual payroll, and I hope you can see why it just doesn't sit right.

I may of course be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. But I just don't buy it.

Separately, can I ask why the 'big bad' description, has the impression of him changed now?

Remember that we are talking about the GW of 15 years ago, not the one of today that I've heard has very strict (including instant dismissal) controls in place around the design department.

So, one that was probably a bit more personable, not 'blokes down the pub together writing rules on a napkin' quite level, but certainly a close cadre of colleagues who enjoyed what they did, had known each other for many years (Andy being a central part of the team by this point) and probably wouldn't have had to sign NDAs for pet projects and WIPs that they were playing around with as part of their jobs.

I should imagine that it was as simple as 'I've got this idea, it's in an alpha stage, what do you think of it?' Sales/head office said no, and so off he went. He wasn't the first of the design team or the last, and others left for similar reasons, as either they or the direction of GW took different paths.

Of course that's just my impression, built on comments going around at the time (and I have more certainty around SST being written by AC, and it being based on a prototype 40k version, than I do on his reasons for leaving GW which can only ever really be conjecture)

Just a title think I picked up watching Children's BBC when it was still in the broom cupboard. Andy Crane, one of the presenters, was referred to as 'Big Bad Andy C' a few times, and it just stuck.

We've covered a lot of the recent failed companies, but what about further back?
TSR makes for a great case study of over producing and not really caring about your customers, and bears some striking similarities to the way GW was going under Kirby until Rountree took over.
Avalon Hill is one I miss. Still sad that much of their library is now lost in the depths of Hasbro or other black holes of mystery. Would really like to see the rights to Magic Realm sorted out so someone could print a new edition.

Yeah looking back on Gary Gygax's first company New Infinities had a good chance of being great..

They took a 40k / Star Frontiers type game as the first outing, Called "Cyborg Commando" the art
work was sub par and the rules was bad... They even had a chapter on the odds of rolling dice..

It felt very rushed and just bad all the way around...I don't remember but I think it also kill the company.
He did recover some street cred with Dangerous Journeys but I am sure he wanted everyone to forget
Cyborg Commando ..

I never understood why companies go full pre-paint, with FF i can understand, but a company that supplied the hobbyists for years with miniatures and then ignores most of its base that got them there, is just incomprehensible.

How difficult is it to also release unpainted versions for the hobbyists?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I never understood why companies go full pre-paint, with FF i can understand, but a company that supplied the hobbyists for years with miniatures and then ignores most of its base that got them there, is just incomprehensible.

How difficult is it to also release unpainted versions for the hobbyists?

That idea came from the same line of thinking that the clix games came from. Word around the campfire was that it was supposed to be a tabletop version of BF2, but the checks written by hype were a little bit more then was able to be handled.

Then at that particular time, there ended up being some serious issues that almost seemed to pop up at once, and then compound over licensing, and the Sony thing with SST. I was pretty hard on Matt at the time, but in his realistic rear view blinders, I think that the company just rode their success a little too hard, and it ended up costing them the bank. Add on to it that they continued to lose resources, and it was a final 100 miles of bad road.

In the business, it is called a victim of your own success. You make a big win, and then end up losing the pot on the next grasp at the next big thing. It is not a rookie move, either, we can see A LOT of companies doing it, from major car manufacturers to furniture companies, to game companies.

You can see quite a few examples in game companies that run KS or Indigogo projects. When you look at the phenomena big picture wise, it is the same mentality that killed FASA, TSR, and Demonblade.

You can also end up with surveys chasing the wrong market. Asking people why they don't get into wargames and building/painting is going to be a barrier to many people starting a new game.

However that doesn't necessarily mean that when presented with pre-painted; those same people will actually want to buy them.

If you're also abandoning you core market that can be a huge backlash as well because now your core and most loyal fans are suddenly thrown out of the airlock. That creates a huge negative feeling and atmosphere which can seriously turn a community toxic- and once your community goes toxic there's almost nothing you can do to turn it around that isn't going to cost a company a fortune. Toxicity of the community can come from lots of other palces too - you see it a lot in early access computer games where developers don't keep up proper communication or have long development gaps - people whine and complain and demanding. Planetary Annihilation is a good example where miss managed community elements resulted in them having such a toxic base that it killed Human Resources which was to be their next big game.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On SST, I've never been especially persuaded that Big Bad Andy C took prototype 40k rules to Mongoose.

Spoiler:

At the risk of starting an argument (I'm not, just giving an opinion), anything Andy C wrote for 40k would belong to GW. Hell, if I sent in some fan art or fan fiction, their terms and conditions mean it becomes their sole property.

Apply that to someone, anyone on the actual payroll, and I hope you can see why it just doesn't sit right.

I may of course be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. But I just don't buy it.

Spoiler:

Separately, can I ask why the 'big bad' description, has the impression of him changed now?

Remember that we are talking about the GW of 15 years ago, not the one of today that I've heard has very strict (including instant dismissal) controls in place around the design department.

So, one that was probably a bit more personable, not 'blokes down the pub together writing rules on a napkin' quite level, but certainly a close cadre of colleagues who enjoyed what they did, had known each other for many years (Andy being a central part of the team by this point) and probably wouldn't have had to sign NDAs for pet projects and WIPs that they were playing around with as part of their jobs.

I should imagine that it was as simple as 'I've got this idea, it's in an alpha stage, what do you think of it?' Sales/head office said no, and so off he went. He wasn't the first of the design team or the last, and others left for similar reasons, as either they or the direction of GW took different paths.

Of course that's just my impression, built on comments going around at the time (and I have more certainty around SST being written by AC, and it being based on a prototype 40k version, than I do on his reasons for leaving GW which can only ever really be conjecture)

Just a title think I picked up watching Children's BBC when it was still in the broom cupboard. Andy Crane, one of the presenters, was referred to as 'Big Bad Andy C' a few times, and it just stuck.

Ah OK fair enough!

I was about to say surely that was just referring to his haircut, but then realized I was thinking of Pat Sharpe

Pat Sharpe? Pat Sharpe and his bottled charisma?


Seeeeeeeeeensational!

Say what you like about the mullet, but he's one of the few TV presenters from my youth not to be picked up by Operation Yewtree. Him and Glen Michael.

Another games company from the "whoooooooooo?"* column; Stone Circle Games, cut short by some Hollywood shenanigans, apparently. Their China Town game was pretty fun - take Hong Kong martial arts movies, far eastern demons and vampires and chuck in some Yakuza cyborgs and stir well.


(*thank you, Marc Riley)

 Overread wrote:
You can also end up with surveys chasing the wrong market. Asking people why they don't get into wargames and building/painting is going to be a barrier to many people starting a new game.

However that doesn't necessarily mean that when presented with pre-painted; those same people will actually want to buy them.

Sometimes it's a matter of bringing a product to market before the market is ready for it, or the product may be missing that final element that takes it from "something I would like to have" to "OMG I must have that". I think prepaints do have a significant future in gaming, and may very well become the rule rather than the exception, but the quality needs to get higher with the price still being low enough. Perhaps as 3D printing tech improves to where we can not only print out minis affordably, but that they'll also be fully "painted" with the color in the plastic itself (easily allowing the hobbyist to just paint over with no loss of detail), that will be the tipping point.

Now that I've taken a good look the Ex Illis site is really terrible, images don't show up right, hard to find anything.

The minis are also a mixed bag.

I pulled the images because it seemed the only way to get a good look.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-518-7012_Ex%20Illis.html

Some are pretty good:







Others a bit uninsipired



Or just bad



The angels look particularly good.





But if they're not easy to check out on their own site... Doesn't really inspire confidence in their software or game.


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And it looks like they died last December.



https://meeples.wordpress.com/2016/12/19/50-off-remaining-ex-illis-stock-at-bastion/

https://www.facebook.com/Ex-illis-135224783179034/

Ah well, not that I needed more models.

reL Ex-Illis - I liked the concept well enough, but wasn't excited by the execution. At all. The models just didn't do anything for me. Even the ones you consider "pretty good" just don't cut it for me.

It's not like the Vor Growlers or AT-43 Therians - those were minis that I found to be inspiring (but not so much so that I'd have spent money on them).

Ex Illis has been dead for years - I remember checking out there forums back in like, 2013 - and it was just a handful of die-hards and one or two of the developers slowly fixing bugs on the software.

And I too like the concept - (one of the things that makes me a collector/painter but not a gamer is all the bookkeeping TTG require) but the minis were lackluster and the tech needs top get better and cheaper (adding another layer of expense to the already ridiculous cost of your average mini isn't gonna win many converts).

But it'd be awesome being able to keep track of xp/status effects/loot/etc without cluttering up the table with a bunch of paper, cards, tokens.

These days we can kind of take smart phones and tablets for granted, even more than in 2013. So it might work.

But I don't see an Android version of the software...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
reL Ex-Illis - I liked the concept well enough, but wasn't excited by the execution. At all. The models just didn't do anything for me. Even the ones you consider "pretty good" just don't cut it for me.

It's not like the Vor Growlers or AT-43 Therians - those were minis that I found to be inspiring (but not so much so that I'd have spent money on them).

MAN I forgot about AT-43. Some great designs but the modeler in me was less drawn to the game, though did appreciate the designs overall. Nobody let me proxy things either out of the two people that played the game.

How did the mechanics work? Heard they weren't terrible but that's about it.

I still have some Ex Illis minis - converted a bunch of them into a Warhammer Empire army a few years back.

Big problem with games like Ex Illis (and Golem Arcana or whatever) is that it constantly takes your attention away from the miniatures. People are staring at a screen more than the tabletop. The miniatures seem tertiary to a pretty crappy war game - the smart phone/ tablet aspect of it really didn't add to the game as intended.

The Ex Illis designer had a creepy non-smile in all the company photos too.