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Exalted Beastlord




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And likewise, there's still stories where only some factions show up currently, and also have historically been stories when everyone has shown up.


Can you name some? I honestly can't think of any where everyone shows up.
Dawn of War features that in Soulstorm (I think?).

Dawn of War didn't have everyone in it, so... obviously not.

Medusa V had every faction present.
The Plague Wars had everyone present.
I *believe* that the 13th Black Crusade had everyone around, even Tau.

Nearly any "narrative" campaign that GW ran at WHW was explicitly open to all factions.
And, as I said, Shadow War: Armageddon had unit packs for all factions in the game at the time.

I mean, sure. Game rules and events encouraging people to show up at the shop aren't going to turn people away with 'you aren't in this, so sorry, but you can't play.' That's not the same as a story though.


I think it sure could - just pick a sufficiently large and vital region (like a sub-sector of space, perhaps), and just provide enough reasons to be there - but considering this is 40k, that's not difficult for many factions.

It is actually difficult for several factions, especially access to a specific sub-sector. There are places in the galaxy some just can't get to. Stuff like tau wandering out of their pocket, tyranid being separated from their hive fleets, and anyone being in the Eye just gets handwaved (when people bother to tie a story element or place to a game. Mostly in my experience, folks just don't bother- they just get on with the game against whichever opponent is there).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 18:10:55


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Voss wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
I honestly can't think of any where everyone shows up.
Dawn of War features that in Soulstorm (I think?).

Dawn of War didn't have everyone in it, so... obviously not.
Soulstorm pretty much did. Or rather, they featured just about every faction that was in the setting at the time.

It definitely had Tau in, which are the biggest case of "nooooo they aren't supposed to be there!" we usually see.
Medusa V had every faction present.
The Plague Wars had everyone present.
I *believe* that the 13th Black Crusade had everyone around, even Tau.

Nearly any "narrative" campaign that GW ran at WHW was explicitly open to all factions.
And, as I said, Shadow War: Armageddon had unit packs for all factions in the game at the time.

I mean, sure. Game rules and events encouraging people to show up at the shop aren't going to turn people away with 'you aren't in this, so sorry, but you can't play.' That's not the same as a story though.
Still examples of settings and battle in 40k where everyone was present, which you asked for.

Plus, I'd definitely say that most of those were story settings. But, as you say, GW were creating events and moments where they didn't want to (for good reason) exclude whole factions. I think that's what they're going for with things like Octarius.


I think it sure could - just pick a sufficiently large and vital region (like a sub-sector of space, perhaps), and just provide enough reasons to be there - but considering this is 40k, that's not difficult for many factions.

It is actually difficult for several factions, especially access to a specific sub-sector. There are places in the galaxy some just can't get to. Stuff like tau wandering out of their pocket, tyranid being separated from their hive fleets, and anyone being in the Eye just gets handwaved (when people bother to tie a story element or place to a game.
Well, with the Startide Nexus, that's not an issue any longer for the Tau, Hive Fleet Leviathan (or is it Kraken?) has slipped under the galactic plane, so could reasonably strike anywhere, and anything in the Eye likely has Warp access, so could be Deus-Ex-Machina'd wherever the subsector needs to be.

End of the day, I'd rather see more things in lore that provide opportunities for factions to pop up in battles than restrictions in lore that stop factions showing up.
Mostly in my experience, folks just don't bother- they just get on with the game against whichever opponent is there).
Oh, absolutely - that's why I'd like to see more player freedoms, instead of restrictions, to canonise that.


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Made in us
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
I honestly can't think of any where everyone shows up.
Dawn of War features that in Soulstorm (I think?).

Dawn of War didn't have everyone in it, so... obviously not.
Soulstorm pretty much did. Or rather, they featured just about every faction that was in the setting at the time.

It definitely had Tau in, which are the biggest case of "nooooo they aren't supposed to be there!" we usually see.
Medusa V had every faction present.
The Plague Wars had everyone present.
I *believe* that the 13th Black Crusade had everyone around, even Tau.

Nearly any "narrative" campaign that GW ran at WHW was explicitly open to all factions.
And, as I said, Shadow War: Armageddon had unit packs for all factions in the game at the time.

I mean, sure. Game rules and events encouraging people to show up at the shop aren't going to turn people away with 'you aren't in this, so sorry, but you can't play.' That's not the same as a story though.
Still examples of settings and battle in 40k where everyone was present, which you asked for.


No, it actually wasn't. You said stories, and I asked for examples of that. I could've been more clear, I suppose.
But the 40k stories and 40k games don't overlap much at all to me.
They aren't even vaguely capable of modelling what happens in one format in the other. If Special Character whomever shows up on the table, he gets multiple heavy weapons to the face and its a done deal. Meanwhile a book marine gets to go nuts on multiple squads as an unstoppable juggernaut (usually).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 19:00:55


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Voss wrote:
No, it actually wasn't. You said stories, and I asked for examples of that. I could've been more clear, I suppose.
But the 40k stories and 40k games don't overlap much at all to me.
Ah, my mistake - all the same, I personally would still regard those I mentioned above as "story" events, in so much as I consider any story or setting or battle in 40k as a "story".


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I could state Guilliman's return, but I think he's the most notably symptom of the sort of 'Avengersifcation' of 40k in the wake of him waking up. Events now, more than ever, feel like they have to directly revolve around the Character Of The Week, rather than merely about the factions. Whilst there's always been prominent characters tied to certain events (Yarrick and Ghaz on Armageddon), it feels like just about everything must now directly revolve around them and everybody else is just a witness to their awesome 12" Reroll Failed Hits bubbles.

It's served to shrink the scale of the setting immensely. We can't care what's going on over in X sector because Guilliman or Calgar aren't there yet, or Typhus is attacking it with Be'lakor, or whatever character - updated model or new invention - they're trying to push that week. It feels more character driven than ever, which when GW can't write good, consistent, coherent characters at the best of times isn't a great setup.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 20:10:37


 
   
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 Arbitrator wrote:
I could state Guilliman's return, but I think he's the most notably symptom of the sort of 'Avengersifcation' of 40k in the wake of him waking up. Events now, more than ever, feel like they have to directly revolve around the Character Of The Week, rather than merely about the factions. Whilst there's always been prominent characters tied to certain events (Yarrick and Ghaz on Armageddon), it feels like just about everything must now directly revolve around them and everybody else is just a witness to their awesome 12" Reroll Failed Hits bubbles.

It's served to shrink the scale of the setting immensely. We can't care what's going on over in X sector because Guilliman or Calgar aren't there yet, or Typhus is attacking it with Be'lakor, or whatever character - updated model or new invention - they're trying to push that week. It feels more character driven than ever, which when GW can't write good, consistent, coherent characters at the best of times isn't a great setup.


I think guilliman is also not a from dark enough for 40K, and although the dark imperium is a grim dark setting I think guilliman can’t help but make things less grim. If he was to come back he should have come back as some sort of bitter zombie guilliman
   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
No, it actually wasn't. You said stories, and I asked for examples of that. I could've been more clear, I suppose.
But the 40k stories and 40k games don't overlap much at all to me.
Ah, my mistake - all the same, I personally would still regard those I mentioned above as "story" events, in so much as I consider any story or setting or battle in 40k as a "story".


How? Magnus the Red (or, conversely Squad Trooper B) on the table has no drama, agency, arc, foil, growth or resolution. You simply apply statistical probability to him until he's off the table.

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mrFickle wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
I could state Guilliman's return, but I think he's the most notably symptom of the sort of 'Avengersifcation' of 40k in the wake of him waking up. Events now, more than ever, feel like they have to directly revolve around the Character Of The Week, rather than merely about the factions. Whilst there's always been prominent characters tied to certain events (Yarrick and Ghaz on Armageddon), it feels like just about everything must now directly revolve around them and everybody else is just a witness to their awesome 12" Reroll Failed Hits bubbles.

It's served to shrink the scale of the setting immensely. We can't care what's going on over in X sector because Guilliman or Calgar aren't there yet, or Typhus is attacking it with Be'lakor, or whatever character - updated model or new invention - they're trying to push that week. It feels more character driven than ever, which when GW can't write good, consistent, coherent characters at the best of times isn't a great setup.


I think guilliman is also not a from dark enough for 40K, and although the dark imperium is a grim dark setting I think guilliman can’t help but make things less grim. If he was to come back he should have come back as some sort of bitter zombie guilliman





he basicly IS a bitter zombie gulliman

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
I could state Guilliman's return, but I think he's the most notably symptom of the sort of 'Avengersifcation' of 40k in the wake of him waking up. Events now, more than ever, feel like they have to directly revolve around the Character Of The Week, rather than merely about the factions. Whilst there's always been prominent characters tied to certain events (Yarrick and Ghaz on Armageddon), it feels like just about everything must now directly revolve around them and everybody else is just a witness to their awesome 12" Reroll Failed Hits bubbles.

It's served to shrink the scale of the setting immensely. We can't care what's going on over in X sector because Guilliman or Calgar aren't there yet, or Typhus is attacking it with Be'lakor, or whatever character - updated model or new invention - they're trying to push that week. It feels more character driven than ever, which when GW can't write good, consistent, coherent characters at the best of times isn't a great setup.


I think guilliman is also not a from dark enough for 40K, and although the dark imperium is a grim dark setting I think guilliman can’t help but make things less grim. If he was to come back he should have come back as some sort of bitter zombie guilliman





he basicly IS a bitter zombie gulliman


He bitter, maybe a bit emo but not grim. If he went around exterminatus happy because of the disgust he sees in wha the empire has become maybe but at the end of the day, what ever he says, he still pulled off one heroic mission after another to save the imperium

If it was better that we burned in Horus ambition then why the indomitus crusade, if you want the house to burn down stop putting out fires
   
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Exterminatusing the whole Imperium because it doesn't fit the Emperor's ideal vision isn't grimdark its just stupid.
Thats also what Guilliman said before he spoke with the Emperor. Nobody knows what was said but Guilliman came out determined to protect what was left of the Imperium.
That Guilliman's return and the introduction of the Primaris has done little if anything to "save" the Imperium is more grimdark than "me Guilliman sad, me burn literally everything".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 21:45:34


 
   
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Voss wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
No, it actually wasn't. You said stories, and I asked for examples of that. I could've been more clear, I suppose.
But the 40k stories and 40k games don't overlap much at all to me.
Ah, my mistake - all the same, I personally would still regard those I mentioned above as "story" events, in so much as I consider any story or setting or battle in 40k as a "story".


How? Magnus the Red (or, conversely Squad Trooper B) on the table has no drama, agency, arc, foil, growth or resolution. You simply apply statistical probability to him until he's off the table.
I disagree. Are you seriously telling me that you've never told your own stories or seen your own narratives unfold on tabletop? That you've never been compelled by the performance of one squad as it somehow outlasts and defeats a much stronger unit? That squad leader that impossibly seems to slay the enemy warlord? That plasma gunner that always overheats? The rivalries between commanders, the grudge matches between games, the imagery of the battle fought by the little toy soldiers on the table?

Every game has story potential, in my opinion. Squad Trooper B is exactly the kind of thing I mean, because that trooper might survive that charge from that lone Terminator assaulting the objective, and even kill it. And from that, Squad Trooper B is not just Squad Trooper B, but 'Squad Trooper B - the Terminator Slayer'. Perhaps you have a character who keeps losing their duels against the enemy leader - but you keep trying and trying until one day, you actually roll hot, and you finally win that duel.

Those are the stories which I believe 40k was built to tell - the ones in the narrative are just frameworks for those stories.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 22:06:39



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heck didn't some of the original special characters become who they where today because of things that happened in GW games done for battle reports?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
heck didn't some of the original special characters become who they where today because of things that happened in GW games done for battle reports?
Yes, I believe so! In fact, the whole story of Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels was based on just such a battle report game!
(Well, either Tycho or Mephiston, I don't remember exactly which)


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BrianDavion wrote:
heck didn't some of the original special characters become who they where today because of things that happened in GW games done for battle reports?


Yup. Ghazgul being the biggest, of course. It's one reason why our local tables have a rule of no named characters... you should be making your own story, not playing someone else's.

But we're old, so.
   
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West Lafayette, IN

BrianDavion wrote:
heck didn't some of the original special characters become who they where today because of things that happened in GW games done for battle reports?


Captain Cortez was written out as a playable character because Dave Thomas got him captured in a one off game against one of the studio Dark Eldar players.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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 Gert wrote:
Exterminatusing the whole Imperium because it doesn't fit the Emperor's ideal vision isn't grimdark its just stupid.
Thats also what Guilliman said before he spoke with the Emperor. Nobody knows what was said but Guilliman came out determined to protect what was left of the Imperium.
That Guilliman's return and the introduction of the Primaris has done little if anything to "save" the Imperium is more grimdark than "me Guilliman sad, me burn literally everything".


Apparently for some fans if you dont double down on the stupidity is not 40k enough.

Guilliman doing more damage to humanity and the IOM than Abbadon and the Tyranids together would be the perfect nihilistic story.

It would also made perfect sense from his perspective to follow a scorched earth policy to deny resources to the enemies of the IOM while hopping something new and better arises from the ashes.

But in the grimdark future of the year 40.000 there is only WORLDS but no consequences... The power of the status quo is unbreakable.

   
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Vatsetis wrote:


Guilliman doing more damage to humanity and the IOM than Abbadon and the Tyranids together would be the perfect nihilistic story.




and endless nihilism is boring.

It would also made perfect sense from his perspective to follow a scorched earth policy to deny resources to the enemies of the IOM while hopping something new and better arises from the ashes.


it only makes sense if you admit you'll NEVER fething WIN THOSE WORLDS BACK.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 06:40:09


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 Lord Damocles wrote:

Only the Marines, Guard, and Orks are narratively present in Acheron where Shadow War Armageddon is set.

The framing for all of the other factions in the rulebook is 'The battles that rage through Acheron’s sprawling underhive are but a drop in the ocean of clandestine campaigns that ravage the Imperium. Armageddon is a single planet in a vast galaxy, and every hive world, promethium colony and mining station can quickly become enshrouded in a shadow war' (pg.114).

This is what I was getting at.

Why haven't they done the same for Killteam?
The only time shoe-horning everyone makes sense in is interactive campaigns, whether that be videogames like Dawn of War or global campaigns like Medusa. Even then it only makes sense because we accept it's necessary to handwave that thin justification for the sake of not excluding anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Guilliman, I do agree that not everything needs to be super grim evil all the time regardless of sense.

However, I dislike how he was handled in general. It seems they've basically handwaved all the expected internal conflict.
I know they've made excuses like he had a bunch of Assassins hanging around to scare the High Lords into going along with it? But when you have Black Templars chumming up with Eldar, and Dark Angels embracing foreign soldiers with open arms it raises an eyebrow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 07:33:03


 
   
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 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:

Only the Marines, Guard, and Orks are narratively present in Acheron where Shadow War Armageddon is set.

The framing for all of the other factions in the rulebook is 'The battles that rage through Acheron’s sprawling underhive are but a drop in the ocean of clandestine campaigns that ravage the Imperium. Armageddon is a single planet in a vast galaxy, and every hive world, promethium colony and mining station can quickly become enshrouded in a shadow war' (pg.114).

This is what I was getting at.

Why haven't they done the same for Killteam?
The only time shoe-horning everyone makes sense in is interactive campaigns, whether that be videogames like Dawn of War or global campaigns like Medusa. Even then it only makes sense because we accept it's necessary to handwave that thin justification for the sake of not excluding anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Guilliman, I do agree that not everything needs to be super grim evil all the time regardless of sense.

However, I dislike how he was handled in general. It seems they've basically handwaved all the expected internal conflict.
I know they've made excuses like he had a bunch of Assassins hanging around to scare the High Lords into going along with it? But when you have Black Templars chumming up with Eldar, and Dark Angels embracing foreign soldiers with open arms it raises an eyebrow.


I reccomend reading the novels "the emperor's legion" and "the regent's shadow" they're fantastic novels and do flesh out things a little. there's resistance to Gulliman, some of it overt (there was an attempted coup when his back was turned) but most of the resistance has been subtler because well... obviously going DIRECT against a primarch is idiotic. for example, there where sabotoge issues with the preperations of the indomatus crusade fleet etc.


on the other topic, we're talking an entire sector of space, not just one world.

also I think it's worth noting that the exact wording is "almost every faction has a stake"

honestly, even if it's just the orks, tyranids and imperium, that's close eneugh to every faction to count, and the craftworld eldar sending a small strike team into the mix to futz with the course of the war is pretty "standard operating procedure" for them.
so I'd honestly not read tooooooooooo much into this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 07:48:56


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I have a few, but two I specifically dislike, though they are the same problem (other than the Tau in general, awful faction), was the fleshing out of Deathwatch and Grey Knights from 1x small specialist squads that were allies you could attach to a force to fully fleshed out forces.

Grey Knights specifically are meant to be so so so rare that there really is no justification other than well, Angron popping up on Armageddon for such huge contingents of them showing up. This is also because they were/are meant to be that badass and powerful just as a 5x man Terminator unit. Power Armour Grey Knights as well is another matter entirely. Fully Terminator Plate or get in the bin.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 13:13:08


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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I have a few, but two I specifically dislike, though they are the same problem (other than the Tau in general, awful faction), was the fleshing out of Deathwatch and Grey Knights from 1x small specialist squads that were allies you could attach to a force to fully fleshed out forces.

Grey Knights specifically are meant to be so so so rare that there really is no justification other than well, Angron popping up on Armageddon for such huge contingents of them showing up. This is also because they were/are meant to be that badass and powerful just as a 5x man Terminator unit. Power Armour Grey Knights as well is another matter entirely. Fully Terminator Plate or get in the bin.


There's not enough Exalts in the galaxy for this. I loved GK back when they were specialized Terminators. They should be add-ons to existing Imperium forces for special missions. This is my feeling towards Inquisitors as well. These folks should be in an Imperial Agents codex, not swarming battlefields by themselves.


 
   
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I think a lot of the factions that got expanded from single squads into entire factions suffered for it.
Deathwatch in particular. Killteams were literally their whole shtick. But they expanded them into entire armies, why?!
   
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Does anyone here who hates that DW were expanded actually play DW, read any of their Codex material, or read any DW novels?
Multiple Kill Teams being deployed is not a new thing and on top of that DW are very expensive in-game, it's literally an army of 1st Company Veterans in most cases.
The Combat Patrol at most is three Kill Teams plus a leader and a support officer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 14:24:50


 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:


he basicly IS a bitter zombie gulliman


"I do these things and I enjoy them, not because we are moral or right, or loving souls seeking to enlighten a dark universe, but because all I feel are the Butcher's Nails hammered into my brain. I serve because of this mutilation. Without it, well, perhaps I might be a more moral man as you claim to be... a virtuous man, eh? Perhaps I might ascend the steps of our father's palace... and take the slaving bastard's head"

Go on, Roboute... you can be a better moral compass than fricking *Angron* right... right..?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thread tax - I've been at this since Rogue Trader, and the thing I found hardest to make my peace with was... the Dark Eldar. Based on all that came before I found them utterly nonsensical: wot, no soulstones?!?

*shuffles his feet nervously and eyes his primary faction of spikey douchebag elves*

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 14:37:20


 
   
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 Gert wrote:
Does anyone here who hates that DW were expanded actually play DW, read any of their Codex material, or read any DW novels?
Multiple Kill Teams being deployed is not a new thing and on top of that DW are very expensive in-game, it's literally an army of 1st Company Veterans in most cases.
The Combat Patrol at most is three Kill Teams plus a leader and a support officer.


So the codex material about them deploying in force is basically all new, so yes, I dislike that.

I used to play a Deathwatch kill team as an attachment with a captain or librarian leading it, it was badass.

I have read the deathwatch novels, I can recall off the top of my head once when more than one kill team was in the same battle i.e. shooting at the same enemies as the other kill team. Multiple kill teams on a planet is fine, as with what happened in the third war for Armageddon. Those same kill teams being in sight of each other and not out on specialist missions themselves... That is not how they used to work, and what I dislike about them.

1 kill team used to be enough, requiring whole forces of kill teams to achieve one mission devalues them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 15:24:23


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How do you take down the Warboss of a huge Waaaagh! with one Kill Team? What about a Hrud migration?
There was room for missions with multiple Kill Teams assigned the same mission previously, now it's just possible to do so.
   
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 Gert wrote:
How do you take down the Warboss of a huge Waaaagh! with one Kill Team? What about a Hrud migration?
There was room for missions with multiple Kill Teams assigned the same mission previously, now it's just possible to do so.


That does seem like the kind of narrative space that, er, space marine chapters are meant to occupy rather than super-specialler specialist marines...
   
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But why send a random Chapter when the specialists exist? Why waste Astartes who might have never fought Orks before when you can send ones that have intimate knowledge of Orks seared into their brains. Three Kill Teams led by a Captain would be far more effective than a Company plus support.
A normal Chapter might seek a truce with Xenos whereas the Deathwatch are indoctrinated even beyond normal Astartes to hate Xenos. There will be no moral quandary and no quarter given.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 16:04:53


 
   
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 Gert wrote:
How do you take down the Warboss of a huge Waaaagh! with one Kill Team? What about a Hrud migration?
There was room for missions with multiple Kill Teams assigned the same mission previously, now it's just possible to do so.


Space Marine Chapters/Imperial guard regiments with Ordo Xenos support (if necessary) for both situations.

Also, 3x kill teams will not stop a Wagghhh.

One Warboss needing to be assassinated? 1 Kill Team, 1 Officio Assassinorum operative. To stop a whole Waaagh, you need a hell of a lot of bodies, equipment, Navy support if the Orks have a fleet...

You are trying to justify it to us, I (and others) do not like the lore change, this is what this thread is about, stop being so defensive about a faction you have put on a pedestal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 16:27:32


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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Space Marine Chapters/Imperial guard regiments with Ordo Xenos support (if necessary) for both situations.

Also, 3x kill teams will not stop a Wagghhh.

One Warboss needing to be assassinated? 1 Kill Team, 1 Officio Assassinorum operative. To stop a whole Waaagh, you need a hell of a lot of bodies, equipment, Navy support if the Orks have a fleet...

Killing the Warboss is a tried and true tactic for stopping Ork hordes, if that Warboss has survived previous attempts by an Assassin or single Kill Team then a larger force might be required.

You are trying to justify it to us, I (and others) do not like the lore change, this is what this thread is about, stop being so defensive about a faction you have put on a pedestal.

I'm having a discussion which BTW you can't stop me from doing.
I'd also like to point out that in the DW Codex supplement it still mentions how DW Astartes conduct various operations from single warriors leading human operatives to entire Watch Fortresses being deployed. DW are still deployed in Kill Teams it just varies on how many teams are needed for a given mission.
The DW Combat Patrol has a total of 15 models and at most 3 Kill Teams plus a Lt and an Apothecary. That's still a small force.
If you want small forces of DW then you can still do that with small-scale games and Kill Team. I could go and read through all the DW RPG books and find evidence that a Watch Fortress would deploy en mass but there's a hell of a lot of books for the RPG and I really CBA.
   
 
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