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Made in gb
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Killer Klaivex







 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh, and named characters.

Not so much them being a thing, but becoming so central to the background. I feel it to be limiting on the writers.

Example? Ghaz vs Ragnar. We both knew nobody was going to die there, which rips the dramatic tension out of it.

This may be heavily informed of my modern media consumption such as GoT and Walking Dead, where big names can and do snuff it.


This. I don't object to Guilliman getting back from his spa weekend, I don't have a problem with Abbadon going on his annual hike out of the eye. I don't mind the stories and campaigns which surround that sort of thing. 'Professional wrestling', as Da Boss so eloquently put it, does have its own charms.

The problem for me is that it's crowded out everything else. There's no longer any room in the official 40K narrative for the Average Joe human. The Yarricks, the Cains, the Gaunts, the Eisenhorns, the Creeds, the Macharius, the Slaydo. Normal humans only exist now as a sort of narrative companion and plot enabler to the main superhuman named characters. You'll never get another Armageddon campaign, because the Imperial side of the story needs to be told from the viewpoint of Primarised Calgar/Dante/whatever. The Space Marines have effectively taken over the story, and in line with that, the Primarch-centric story of 30K has morphed into being over and above it.

The Grim Adventures of High Commander [insert name here] to stop the evil machinations of Chaos Lord/Archon/O' [insert name here] will never be of relevance beyond a footnote on the timeline, because they're not named characters. And that's a shame, because so very many of the now -named- characters came from that sort of beginning.


 
   
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Lord of the Fleet






London

This possible change doesn't irk me, what irks me is I'm unsure of wherever it happened or not. I could have sworn that the original fluff for Vulkan was that he was white as he wasn't actually Nocturnean. Only the Salamanders themselves were black.

Am I mistaken or was this real?

   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider




Yeah you’re 100% mistaken because there is no old background for the race or skin tone of the Salamanders or Vulkan.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/21 19:07:57


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah you’re 100% mistaken because there is no old background for the race or skin tone of the Salamanders or Vulkan.
When Salamanders were first released into 40k as part of Codex: Armageddon, the depictions of them had them with dark skin (natural/african) rather than the unnatural coal black they are now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/22 15:24:29


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Terrifying Rhinox Rider




Yeah it was a commercially available book, I’ve seen it. There isn’t any background in it that says Nocturneans are any particular IRL race.

Or Macraggans for that matter

When the first helmetless Salamander was ever shown in Rogue Trader they had dark skin and blond hair. No background.

the studio army shown in that Armageddon codex has more white skinned models than dark. There’s no background about what dominants skin tones most of the chapters’ home worlds have.
   
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Dakka Veteran




What's the biggest thing I dislike?

The gradual shift the setting has had from grimdark to nobledark. Just read through the 3rd edition rulebook and look at the artwork, then compare it to the 9th edition lore and art.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah it was a commercially available book, I’ve seen it. There isn’t any background in it that says Nocturneans are any particular IRL race.

Or Macraggans for that matter

When the first helmetless Salamander was ever shown in Rogue Trader they had dark skin and blond hair. No background.

the studio army shown in that Armageddon codex has more white skinned models than dark. There’s no background about what dominants skin tones most of the chapters’ home worlds have.
That's all fine. They did however change to unnatural coal black at some point and thats wierd.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






How is it weird? It's a gene-seed mutation. Just like the Red Thirst or Raven Guard paleness. It would be weird if only the Salamanders had a gene-seed mutation.
   
Made in jp
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

 Gert wrote:
How is it weird? It's a gene-seed mutation. Just like the Red Thirst or Raven Guard paleness. It would be weird if only the Salamanders had a gene-seed mutation.


Weird in that GW had just enough sense to realize that maybe racially segregated marine chapters might not be a great thing, but instead of improving diversity across their range they just fluffed away an entire chapter of Black marines and replaced them with mutants. And didn't change their primarch's name from a childish pun - Vulkan He'stan: Vulkan, he's tan - oh and also they didn't give the same treatment to the White Scars who are still depicted as being the East Asian chapter.

But yeah, no, one planet of humans with white ethnotype features but jet black skin and red eyes because they weren't weird enough looking already is totally sensical.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Vulcan is the Roman God of fire, volcanoes and the forge. Vulkan the Primarch comes from a finery volcanic world and is amazing at forging.
Vulkan He'stan is Master of the Forge in M41.
You've mixed two characters up and honestly for the whole time I've been in the hobby it's never occurred to me that the M41 Vulkan's second name could be a pun on his skin tone. Would you happen to have a source that says this is true?
The Scars are based on the Mongols and there is literally nothing stopping you from painting them whatever skin tone you want and there never has been.
As a side note, the mutations in the Salamanders gene-seed come from Nocturne's radiation. If you had a batch of gene-seed not from Nocturne then the mutation wouldn't be present or it would develop less severely.
The Raven Guard mutation makes the Astartes pale but again this is a process that takes time and won't turn every single Astartes with Raven Guard gene-seed into the same pale skinned person.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 10:43:43


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

He'stan = He's Tan?

That's a stretch guys.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in jp
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

Hands in the air, I saw someone else post that a while back, and it made sense to me. Poked around online and there's nothing that backs it up. However i am absolutely happy to die on the hill that GW have historically been crap at diversity, making the salamanders thing be "they have coal black skin" instead of literally any other visual representation of heatproof - considering they had already been protrayed as dark-skinned - was a lame misstep and also the white scars are allover the place visually, and rarely draw any consistant inspiration from actual accurate historical sources in the way that, say, ultramarines have.

Of all 3 the primarchs that aren't white, one is red, one is chaos black spray black.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Well my old colleague who many moons ago worked at the studio always maintained the sallies were a poor black sterotype and written as such (slow reflexes etc.). It was only when the studio became more aware of such stuff that they started to revise some of the ethno-national shorthand they had quickly written in earlier (a useful trick, but not if the underlying sterotypes the audience have are negative), with managers and editors getting better at raising such questions about existing background.
   
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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 Nevelon wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Well, tell you what- you and I will have to respectfully disagree.

I suppose I shouldn't have brought game content in background thread in the first place, though I hadn't expected an immediate response shutting down 4 armies and alienating all the players who love them just because "You can always ally with good ole, run of the mill space marines"

I play 25 PL Deathwatch- it's twelve infantry models- A Watchmaster leading a Proteus team of 5 and Kyria Draxus leading a Fortis Team of five.

Funny thing about that little force? Even as small as it is, it's still better for having a supplement. Ninth ed isn't exclusively about 2k battles anymore.

Anyway, like I said, not the right forum to talk about the game anyway. Peace out.


Sorry, my bad here.

It’s one of those things that crosses over background and rules for me. And a bit of a hot button. IMHO things like grey knights and deathwatch have a mystique of being elite and special. Or should. Seeing them deployed army-strength in pickup games lessens that for me. As an old timer, it remember before they got the full army treatment, and that’s the vision I like to have for them. Now they feel like they are just silver marines or black armored marines with some special rules. I know they still have the background and lore, but it’s all intertwined with what I see on the table

I do recognize that the ship has sailed. Newer players (and that’s most people) have a completely different vision of these armies. And that’s OK. I don’t advocate the squatting of anyone’s army, but there are some I wish were never fleshed out to that level.



Yes I feel the same way. I still remember that old Marine vs. Chaos Epic battle report, and I think that planted the seed in my head about how those 'elite of the elite' forces should operate. In that game, during the battle the Grey Knights teleported in just to take out Magnus the Red (Daemon Primarch) and cast him back into the warp, while the rest of the battle was taking place around them.

Having them teleport in to take on some cultists who have been dabbling with a naughty book they found in Cultist Dave's attic lessens the impact somewhat I feel

But, I understand people wanting to have the coolest forces/nicest miniature representation of them, and that applies to a lot of the miniature range. Remember seeing a little 'dawn patrol' 40k game (800pts or something, in an old edition) where some Imperial Guardsmen happened to come across the living embodiment of Khaine, the Avatar! Obviously the Eldar had carried out that once-in-a-generation ritual to summon forth their war god, as that group of poor Imperial Guardsmen that were out on patrol on the backwater planet of Talmasci IV absolutely had to die!

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Gert wrote:
How is it weird?
It's weird that GW chose to expunge/retcon one of their very few earlier depictions of a non-white marine.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ketara wrote:


This. I don't object to Guilliman getting back from his spa weekend, I don't have a problem with Abbadon going on his annual hike out of the eye. I don't mind the stories and campaigns which surround that sort of thing. 'Professional wrestling', as Da Boss so eloquently put it, does have its own charms.

The problem for me is that it's crowded out everything else. There's no longer any room in the official 40K narrative for the Average Joe human. The Yarricks, the Cains, the Gaunts, the Eisenhorns, the Creeds, the Macharius, the Slaydo. Normal humans only exist now as a sort of narrative companion and plot enabler to the main superhuman named characters. You'll never get another Armageddon campaign, because the Imperial side of the story needs to be told from the viewpoint of Primarised Calgar/Dante/whatever. The Space Marines have effectively taken over the story, and in line with that, the Primarch-centric story of 30K has morphed into being over and above it.

The Grim Adventures of High Commander [insert name here] to stop the evil machinations of Chaos Lord/Archon/O' [insert name here] will never be of relevance beyond a footnote on the timeline, because they're not named characters. And that's a shame, because so very many of the now -named- characters came from that sort of beginning.


This may very well be true of BL faction, and we'll certainly see how many "normals" feature in WH+ animations.

In terms of the game, I think this is something Crusade was meant to address. Named characters are the equivalents of Heroic and Legendary level generic HQ's- the difference is that the named are already heroic or legendary out of the box, so they've already received battle honours, which are reflected in their datacard abilities and wargear. They can't actually grow any further, so it isn't really all that fun to include them in a Crusade.

By contrast, generic characters can look forward to at least 4 battle honours as they grow, and you're free to load them up with Requisition Strats which become permanent when purchased with requisition points. Some of the Battle Honours associated with the Charadon campaign are also directly linked to the stories of the campaign. Yes, this does mean that Jeff the Platoon Commander can become the "Liberator of Feiror" while the mighty Commissar Yarrick or even the mightier Roboute Guilliman cannot.
   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut





Ireland

Since coming back, the one change that really sticks out for me is the appearance of the Tau. I don't get them at all, they don't fit in my vision of 40K (though the fluff has moved on a lot as this thread highlights) and I don't like the mech/drone style that's somewhere between anime and Star Wars. There's loads of anime and Star Wars out there already, 40K doesn't need it.

That said, I've no idea what would make a good new faction that isn't a derivative of an existing faction so I suppose it's good that GW put something novel into the universe.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






 Insectum7 wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah you’re 100% mistaken because there is no old background for the race or skin tone of the Salamanders or Vulkan.
When Salamanders were first released into 40k as part of Codex: Armageddon, the depictions of them had them with dark skin (natural/african) rather than the unnatural coal black they are now.


The earliest depiction of the Salamanders' skin I can think of was the Space Marine Painting Guide in the Space Marine Paint Set from about 1990; there, they had "ordinary" dark skin, with blond hair (pre-dating Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man), Later on, on the cover of the Battle For Armageddon board game, the two Salamanders on the cover were white. In Codex: Armageddon, there are two Salamanders models shown with their helmets off - the white squad sergeant and the "ordinary" black captain (again, with blond hair). Not sure what was in the 4th edition Codex: Space Marines, but by 5th edition they "have jet-black skin and burning red eyes".
   
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Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah you’re 100% mistaken because there is no old background for the race or skin tone of the Salamanders or Vulkan.
When Salamanders were first released into 40k as part of Codex: Armageddon, the depictions of them had them with dark skin (natural/african) rather than the unnatural coal black they are now.


The earliest depiction of the Salamanders' skin I can think of was the Space Marine Painting Guide in the Space Marine Paint Set from about 1990; there, they had "ordinary" dark skin, with blond hair (pre-dating Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man), Later on, on the cover of the Battle For Armageddon board game, the two Salamanders on the cover were white. In Codex: Armageddon, there are two Salamanders models shown with their helmets off - the white squad sergeant and the "ordinary" black captain (again, with blond hair). Not sure what was in the 4th edition Codex: Space Marines, but by 5th edition they "have jet-black skin and burning red eyes".


I just checked my 4th ed marine codex. There is one un-helmeted salamander in the back “examples of people’s armies” section, so might not be 100% cannon. But he's a normal human, albeit dark, skin-tone.

   
Made in fr
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Many years ago you used to be able to get a Salamanders tactical boxset - I can't remember if it was 2nd or 3rd edition, but remember I was a staffer in early 00's and that was a leftover boxset that was in the backstore. That box had natural black skintone marines as the painted examples on the front of the box, I think I did put it out on the shelves at the time as it was kind of cool and stood out from the other releases (perhaps other than Easterlings for LoTR which was the game that was super popular at the time) - and I guess things went a bit backwards after that by introducing the coal black and red eye unnatural look afterwards. I absolutely don't think it was intentional by GW it was just an indicator of the demographic that both developed the games and their customers, and there wasn't the thought that a kid from some other ethnic group might come into a store and want some supermen to collect that looked like him or her.

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






the single biggest change I've hated, above all others?

"no model, no rules".

As an ork player who loved model making, my eyes lit up when I realised that you could make a big mek on a warbike with a shokk attack gun. and I made it. Then GW got rid, because "there's no model". Can't be a sales based decision (at least, not by anyone intelligent), as to make one, I would need to buy 2 kits (SAG kit, and a warbiker kit), probably plus greenstuff!

Looted vehicles, mega armoured warbosses, wazdakka, all casualties of the "no model, no rules" rubbish.

Then it got worse - deffkilla wartrikes can't have powerklaws, because they didn't include them in the kit. Why would a warboss want a sub-par CC weapon, just because they're on a trike?

Then they go inconsistent, and give trukks the option of a grabbin' klaw?

Yeah, all in all it's the philosophy of "if we don't make that exact model, it must not be possible!" in GW which has made me less interested over recent years. I used to look for what I can convert - now every option is available, but not because they made them all - because they took away the ones which weren't.

Not entirely fluff, but as the game is meant to represent the fluff, it seems off that a warboss would pass on good armour (now corrected in new 'dex) or a decent weapon based on... well, nothing really.


for just fluff, I'm still not sold on newcrons. Even though they're old now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/17 13:27:27


12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
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Halifax

I miss morale, pinning, going to ground, and psychology.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





I miss blast templates, I just liked the aesthetic they added to the game. Especially Gorks footprint
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Other, perhaps controversial things I miss?

Vehicle and Tyranid Design Rules.

As a theory? Wonderful, wonderful stuff. Harking right back to the very beginning of 40K, where providing rules for home brew vehicles, robots and that was necessary, due to GW’s limited capacity to produce such kits.

They were intended as a way for modellers to do just whatever they flipping pleased in terms of conversions, and then be able to field them. Absolutely bugger all wrong with that.

The trouble? Was us. They sadly proved why the player base cannot be trusted. For every “I made a random conversion, now I field it”, was someone math hammering the intent behind the rules into oblivion, exploiting the system to create stronger for cheaper, or replacing deliberate gaps in their army with a vehicle.

I’d still like them back all the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/18 14:42:08


Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
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Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Other, perhaps controversial things I miss?

Vehicle and Tyranid Design Rules.

As a theory? Wonderful, wonderful stuff. Harking right back to the very beginning of 40K, where providing rules for home brew vehicles, robots and that was necessary, due to GW’s limited capacity to produce such kits.

They were intended as a way for modellers to do just whatever they flipping pleased in terms of conversions, and then be able to field them. Absolutely bugger all wrong with that.

The trouble? Was us. They sadly proved why the player base cannot be trusted. For every “I made a random conversion, now I field it”, was someone math hammering the intent behind the rules into oblivion, exploiting the system to create stronger for cheaper, or replacing deliberate gaps in their army with a vehicle.

I’d still like them back all the same.


With great flexibility come great responsibility.

Any time you add customization you add potential for abuse. Also seen in the 4th edition “build a chapter” rules. Which had the potential to be a lot of fun, but ended up being people trading away the option for things they were not going to use anyway to power up the stuff they brought to the table.

   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Same with the 3.5 Daemon Prince rules.

I loved the concept, but so many were just never used.

It’s a real shame, especially given Narrative Gaming is once again “official”. Being back VDR, TDR and DPDR for narrative only.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
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Upstate, New York

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Same with the 3.5 Daemon Prince rules.

I loved the concept, but so many were just never used.

It’s a real shame, especially given Narrative Gaming is once again “official”. Being back VDR, TDR and DPDR for narrative only.


They kind of did with the build a hero/LR thing. That was 8th? One of those fun sounding things that never got used.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






It isn't as though GW shouldn't have learned their lesson from 2nd ed. vehicle design rules - 2pt Land Raiders!
   
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Dakka Veteran




Jarms48 wrote:
What's the biggest thing I dislike?

The gradual shift the setting has had from grimdark to nobledark. Just read through the 3rd edition rulebook and look at the artwork, then compare it to the 9th edition lore and art.


Yup, this is it, but enough of the "we genocide people who look different" has stayed in to where, absent context, you'd think GW was supporting genocidal fascism, with is protagonists being exemplars of that system.

Again, why the setting works best as (dark) satire.
   
Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Nevelon wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah you’re 100% mistaken because there is no old background for the race or skin tone of the Salamanders or Vulkan.
When Salamanders were first released into 40k as part of Codex: Armageddon, the depictions of them had them with dark skin (natural/african) rather than the unnatural coal black they are now.


The earliest depiction of the Salamanders' skin I can think of was the Space Marine Painting Guide in the Space Marine Paint Set from about 1990; there, they had "ordinary" dark skin, with blond hair (pre-dating Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man), Later on, on the cover of the Battle For Armageddon board game, the two Salamanders on the cover were white. In Codex: Armageddon, there are two Salamanders models shown with their helmets off - the white squad sergeant and the "ordinary" black captain (again, with blond hair). Not sure what was in the 4th edition Codex: Space Marines, but by 5th edition they "have jet-black skin and burning red eyes".


I just checked my 4th ed marine codex. There is one un-helmeted salamander in the back “examples of people’s armies” section, so might not be 100% cannon. But he's a normal human, albeit dark, skin-tone.


I just leafed through the Armageddon codex and on the inside of the cover it's got a picture of their full Salamander army, which has 10 unhelmeted dudes. 8 of them are paler, I guess it's hard to say they're exactly white due to the level of zoom but the remaining two are very obviously brown.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Other, perhaps controversial things I miss?

Vehicle and Tyranid Design Rules.

As a theory? Wonderful, wonderful stuff. Harking right back to the very beginning of 40K, where providing rules for home brew vehicles, robots and that was necessary, due to GW’s limited capacity to produce such kits.

They were intended as a way for modellers to do just whatever they flipping pleased in terms of conversions, and then be able to field them. Absolutely bugger all wrong with that.

The trouble? Was us. They sadly proved why the player base cannot be trusted. For every “I made a random conversion, now I field it”, was someone math hammering the intent behind the rules into oblivion, exploiting the system to create stronger for cheaper, or replacing deliberate gaps in their army with a vehicle.

I’d still like them back all the same.


The rules were tuned such that replicating an already existing vehicle would always make it more expensive, and afaik made a decent job at that, so what could you actually make cheaper? Land Raiders seem an obvious choice since you could just strip the twinned lascannons and probably have points over, but regular Land Raiders were pretty bad in 3rd ed anyway.
   
 
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