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Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
But the tiny 1000 astartes strong chapters are militarily insignificant.
What we are shown and told indicates otherwise.


What we are shown is mostly nonsensical...
So is much of 40k's stuff - welcome to 40k.

From what I remember, you were largely in support of other "nonsensical" material, in previous discussions. Why the dissonance?
Is in universe propaganda for the ignorant imperial citizens and bolter porn to fullfill the power fantasies of the fanboys.
If that is propaganda, what else is? How much is propaganda? What is truth? Is there any truth?

Maybe, just maybe, 40k is more focused on player enjoyment and the wilful suspension of disbelief, in favour of rule of cool, however that manifests for each player - and therefore, perhaps the feats we see Space Marines do are canon, or perhaps not. Who are you to deny someone else's interpretation?

Space Marines dont resist any serious scrutiny of their military capabilities
Absolutely no faction resists serious scrutiny of their military capabilities. Welcome to 40k.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





West Lafayette, IN

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
One tiny entry in the 5th Edition Marine codex pissed me off more than anything ever done in 40K lore.


When Matt Ward explained the three types of Marines to us: Ultramarines, We Wish We Were Ultramarines, and One Step From Chaos. That was probably the biggest slap in the face to the most players in one go. A close second would be the now infamous Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle debacle. Oh, look. Both by Ward.


but on the upside he was being paid exactly what his ideas were worth, hopefully


Jesus fething Christ, is this seriously going to permeate every goddamned thread?!?!?!?

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?

The changing of Chaos Space Marines from ancient Warriors using ancient weapons and wielding the powers of Chaos as a weapon to wreak havoc on the Imperium they built into a bunch of ramshackle warbands fighting to impress the Chaos Gods, because the ultimate goal of every Heretic Astartes is to ascend to Daemenhood.

On behalf of the 8th Legion, your "Path to Glory".



and before they were the '8th Legion,' theywere presented as just another Khornate Chapter. Your conception of them is itself a change from the original material.

See RoC: Slaves to Darkness, p 167: "The World Eaters are not the only chapter to dedicate themselves to the Blood God, as the Night Lord's red and black devices demonstrate" (black banner, with a red bat over a white moon with a Khorne rune above)
See it here: https://www.ozdestro.com/uploads/1/3/0/1/13014732/img-6583_1_orig.jpg

if anything, fighting to impress the chaos gods is closer to the original conception, with the black legion being the failures of the chaos chapters, switching from god to god in attempt to save themselves, only surviving because they managed to master possession to the point that the marine host wasn't destroyed by the process.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Just Tony wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
One tiny entry in the 5th Edition Marine codex pissed me off more than anything ever done in 40K lore.


When Matt Ward explained the three types of Marines to us: Ultramarines, We Wish We Were Ultramarines, and One Step From Chaos. That was probably the biggest slap in the face to the most players in one go. A close second would be the now infamous Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle debacle. Oh, look. Both by Ward.


but on the upside he was being paid exactly what his ideas were worth, hopefully


Jesus fething Christ, is this seriously going to permeate every goddamned thread?!?!?!?


proably. some people are just like a dog with a bone

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





again swooosh /s

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Voss wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?

The changing of Chaos Space Marines from ancient Warriors using ancient weapons and wielding the powers of Chaos as a weapon to wreak havoc on the Imperium they built into a bunch of ramshackle warbands fighting to impress the Chaos Gods, because the ultimate goal of every Heretic Astartes is to ascend to Daemenhood.

On behalf of the 8th Legion, your "Path to Glory".



and before they were the '8th Legion,' theywere presented as just another Khornate Chapter. Your conception of them is itself a change from the original material.

See RoC: Slaves to Darkness, p 167: "The World Eaters are not the only chapter to dedicate themselves to the Blood God, as the Night Lord's red and black devices demonstrate" (black banner, with a red bat over a white moon with a Khorne rune above)
See it here: https://www.ozdestro.com/uploads/1/3/0/1/13014732/img-6583_1_orig.jpg

if anything, fighting to impress the chaos gods is closer to the original conception, with the black legion being the failures of the chaos chapters, switching from god to god in attempt to save themselves, only surviving because they managed to master possession to the point that the marine host wasn't destroyed by the process.

Wow, faster than expected. We've been over that before. Back in the RT era, when space marines were convicts without extensive genetic modification, primarchs were just generals, and the Ultramarines had a half-Eldar librarian.

Obviously I was talking about the transition of the depiction of Chaos Space Marines from what they were in 2nd, 3rd, and most of 4th edition to how they've been depicted from the 4th edition CSM codex (which was released towards the end of 4th edition) onwards.

But, I guess you want to go back to how everything was in RT? Valid point. You're really devoted to that one banner and two shoulder pads, aren't you?
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





ya know... the existance of a night lords deamon prince suggests that they're not all marching in lockstep on the issue of chaos

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I do find it quite funny Gadzilla that you complain about CSM being presented as Chaos worshipers when you present the NL as being anti-Chaos despite the fact that neither statement is 100% accurate.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

BrianDavion wrote:ya know... the existance of a night lords deamon prince suggests that they're not all marching in lockstep on the issue of chaos

Of course they aren't. Daemon Princes and Possessed have always been available to the Night Lords. Some would even openly worship the Chaos Gods, but the majority don't, and would view those that do as weaklings and fools.

Gert wrote:I do find it quite funny Gadzilla that you complain about CSM being presented as Chaos worshipers when you present the NL as being anti-Chaos despite the fact that neither statement is 100% accurate.

Not "anti-Chaos", they use it. They just don't generally worship it (again, some warbands would). Raptors are pretty warped, after all.

And I'm complaining about CSM being presented as a bunch of warbands whose primary goal is "Daemenhood", and act like a bunch of mustache twirling villains. Of COURSE some of them worship Chaos. There's entire LEGIONS devoted to them.
   
Made in us
Painting Within the Lines





Tangentville, New Jersey

I started at the tail end of second edition and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what's already been said.

I liked when the Horus Heresy was legend, where things were vague and sometimes even contradictory. It was like Beowulf with bolters. Giving too much detail demystified it.

I liked when Necrons were cold, nearly-mindless malfunctioning machines that no one understood.

I'm also not a fan of Cawl coming out of nowhere with super tech, new Uber-Marines, and then resurrecting a Primarch. There should have been at least a schism on Mars if not a civil war in the Imperium. I have issues with the crushing stagnation of 10,000 years that's so indicative of the setting suddenly handwaved away.

But if I'm only allowed one thing to complain about, then it's Roboute. Let the dead stay dead. Primarchs are better as legends than living characters. I'd also be happy if certain canonical Daemon princes remained relegated to Epic for that matter.


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:ya know... the existance of a night lords deamon prince suggests that they're not all marching in lockstep on the issue of chaos

Of course they aren't. Daemon Princes and Possessed have always been available to the Night Lords. Some would even openly worship the Chaos Gods, but the majority don't, and would view those that do as weaklings and fools.

Gert wrote:I do find it quite funny Gadzilla that you complain about CSM being presented as Chaos worshipers when you present the NL as being anti-Chaos despite the fact that neither statement is 100% accurate.

Not "anti-Chaos", they use it. They just don't generally worship it (again, some warbands would). Raptors are pretty warped, after all.

And I'm complaining about CSM being presented as a bunch of warbands whose primary goal is "Daemenhood", and act like a bunch of mustache twirling villains. Of COURSE some of them worship Chaos. There's entire LEGIONS devoted to them.


the thing is, they're not all presented as worshipping chaos, but even the ones who don't tend to be walking the "path of glory" all the same

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:ya know... the existance of a night lords deamon prince suggests that they're not all marching in lockstep on the issue of chaos

Of course they aren't. Daemon Princes and Possessed have always been available to the Night Lords. Some would even openly worship the Chaos Gods, but the majority don't, and would view those that do as weaklings and fools.

Gert wrote:I do find it quite funny Gadzilla that you complain about CSM being presented as Chaos worshipers when you present the NL as being anti-Chaos despite the fact that neither statement is 100% accurate.

Not "anti-Chaos", they use it. They just don't generally worship it (again, some warbands would). Raptors are pretty warped, after all.

And I'm complaining about CSM being presented as a bunch of warbands whose primary goal is "Daemenhood", and act like a bunch of mustache twirling villains. Of COURSE some of them worship Chaos. There's entire LEGIONS devoted to them.


the thing is, they're not all presented as worshipping chaos, but even the ones who don't tend to be walking the "path of glory" all the same

And that's what I was complaining about. Some CSM do WORSHIP CHAOS, others USE IT but don't worship it (which is probably just as damning), others don't use it at all. The distinction has been largely lost. But if your point is that they've ALL been tainted by it in some degree, I'd say you're right. But not all seek Daemonhood.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
But the tiny 1000 astartes strong chapters are militarily insignificant.
What we are shown and told indicates otherwise.


What we are shown is mostly nonsensical...
So is much of 40k's stuff - welcome to 40k.

From what I remember, you were largely in support of other "nonsensical" material, in previous discussions. Why the dissonance?
Is in universe propaganda for the ignorant imperial citizens and bolter porn to fullfill the power fantasies of the fanboys.
If that is propaganda, what else is? How much is propaganda? What is truth? Is there any truth?

Maybe, just maybe, 40k is more focused on player enjoyment and the wilful suspension of disbelief, in favour of rule of cool, however that manifests for each player - and therefore, perhaps the feats we see Space Marines do are canon, or perhaps not. Who are you to deny someone else's interpretation?

Space Marines dont resist any serious scrutiny of their military capabilities
Absolutely no faction resists serious scrutiny of their military capabilities. Welcome to 40k.


You must remember wrongly or have misunderstand what I said. Seems to be an habit on your part

That I have a different POV about SM other than standard bolter porn depictions dosent mean I "deny" other players interpretations or pretend to spoil the fun out of them. Im just giving a different perspective.

The more people focus on SM heroic deeds and huge power the more dumb they look like. They are ment to be a satire of militaristic hubris, taking them as an unapologetic power fantasy undermines the hole concept.

   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:
That I have a different POV about SM other than standard bolter porn depictions dosent mean I "deny" other players interpretations or pretend to spoil the fun out of them. Im just giving a different perspective.
A different perspective that only exists to say "hey, look how unrealistic this is!!"?

Sure - we all know 40k is unrealistic. Not sure why you need to make a big deal about it though?

The more people focus on SM heroic deeds and huge power the more dumb they look like. They are ment to be a satire of militaristic hubris, taking them as an unapologetic power fantasy undermines the hole concept.
Slapping "it's satire" on things doesn't make it true, you know. Not to mention how, by that logic, *everything* in 40k is "satire" - if we're not supposed to take "satirical" content as real, is there anything left that is tangible in the setting? Serious question.

Space Marines can be unrealistic without being "satirical" - it's seeming a lot more like a buzzword than anything else.


They/them

 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Well if its a satire at least the over the top and absurd elements of the setting and SM in particular serve a greater cause.

Taking 40k as something serious for its face value is sort of sad.

I dont understand why you are so confrontational.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Again, just being over the top and extreme isn't necessarily "satirical" - just to settle that issue.

Nothing in 40k should be face value, yes, but when you're using "but it's satire!" to imply that every Space Marine action is just propaganda, does that not also mean that *every* action in 40k, because 40k itself should not be taken at face value, is propaganda?

Where does the "but it's just propaganda" train stop?


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I'd rather not get on the hate train, but I'll say that I miss Sanguinus fighting a trio of Bloodthirsters at the gate, defending the Emperor until they were able to bring him down … his deathcry while plummeting to Earth driving his Blood Angels ino a frenzy that would later be reflected as the Black Rage … that was epic, in the truest sense of the world.

Much better than his current punked status.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




You are reading to far into my words and making a completelly wrong misinterpretation of my POV.

Under such circunstances I cannot continue a civic debate with you.

   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Wakshaani wrote:
I'd rather not get on the hate train, but I'll say that I miss Sanguinus fighting a trio of Bloodthirsters at the gate, defending the Emperor until they were able to bring him down … his deathcry while plummeting to Earth driving his Blood Angels ino a frenzy that would later be reflected as the Black Rage … that was epic, in the truest sense of the world.

Much better than his current punked status.


what if they take both stories and combine them? where Sanguinius accompoanies the emperor into battle agaisnt horus carving into the fallen primarchs bloodthirster bodyguards only to be stabed in the back by Horus as he finishes the last one?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva





1. Killing off Squats
2. Removing the comedic aspects from the fluff and game
3. Primaris Marines (GW just couldn't put out a new box of marines without screwing up the fluff)

 
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




New York City

Like a lot of people. Primaris Marines.

Fight for our dead! Death to their living! And claim them in the name of the Emperor!
Lego Warhammer 40,000. Someone make it happen. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






that jar jar binks guy, he's a tool

I have a blog on the Warhammer Tournaments website:

There Will Always be Chainswords

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Primaris Marines
Newcrons
Horus Heresy series ( should have been left as ancient legwnds)
Guilliman resurrection

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

That an event during the Horus Heresy was responsible for drawing the Tyranids to the Milky Way galaxy.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That an event during the Horus Heresy was responsible for drawing the Tyranids to the Milky Way galaxy.
Oh no, is that a thing?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pointer5 wrote:
1. Killing off Squats
2. Removing the comedic aspects from the fluff and game
3. Primaris Marines (GW just couldn't put out a new box of marines without screwing up the fluff)


On pint 2, I feel like Orks have taken another step towards being more serious with the beast snaggas.

I don’t think it’s bad thing, I think they were maybe a bit too silly even though they were my first army in 2nd. I think there is balance in Orks for them to look really mean but have a hilarious edge that I don’t think GW have got right. I loved the old weirdboyz models that looked like lunatic jesters that are being electrocuted, but I think the up sizing of Ghaz was a good move.

I haven’t read a recent ork codex but I used to like things like the cannon which had a projectile that could in theory infinitely bounce all over the battle field. Even back at you haha. Not good in a tournament setting I guess
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I noticed something in the recent Killteam article about the new Octarius warzone that I think is indicative of the new narrative direction of 40k.

Everyone is there.

In broad strokes, a Tyranid tendril is descending on the Imperium, so they divert it to worlds in the Otarius sector filled with Orks. Awesome, a cool setup for a nice Orks v Nids campaign.

But, the war grows so large it starts spilling out into surrounding Imperial worlds, forcing the Imperium to engage to contain it.
Okay, the Imperium needs to be everywhere and every battle needs to be bigger and cooler than the one before [/s]. Still cool though.

Then, everyone else turns up to fight as well. But they don't actually want to commit so they only send small Killteams (TM).

Why? There's no good justification for why these would all come. It really feels like a video game like Dawn of War that constructs really thin justification that all these races with completely divergent and opposed intentions all turn up. It makes sense for a video game, I get it, they need everyone there for the campaign so it's fine.
But why 40k? 40k is a thousand thousand stories that we make right? Wrong. Not anymore, it's the story that GW tells us, so to make their new game work they need everyone involved in the story.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 08:20:43


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Every faction being present on the current planet/sector setting because of reasons is a very old trope of 40k.

Its dumb, but its also old.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 09:28:17


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I don't remember it from any other stories? Only games like Dawn of War.

Black Reach, Dark Vengeance, any of the Imperial Armours, etc, are all 1v1.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Necrons. General “Gerroff Moi Laaaaand”. Also likely intelligence gathering as to what’s all that racket.

Craftworld Eldar. Get in, tweak fate by a couple of actions. Preserve Eldar lives

Dark Eldar - Slaves, Basil. SLAVES!

The only one that’s a serious stretch would be Tau of course.

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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
 
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