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Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree, and there's absolutely no reason that characters can't snuff it in 40k.

Fear of killing off characters, especially when dominated with 'fake-out deaths' coughrubiconcough is widely lamented as a poor trick used by spineless writers when it comes to TV or films.


Yeah. For me, I’ve no problem with Primaris or The Rubicon as such. But when multiple named characters get stabbed in one of their hearts, cross the Rubicon and come back twice as fighty? Once is kinda cool. Multiple times is just a bit boring.

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 Gert wrote:
What? When are new starts handed Horus Rising? They get whatever the edition Starter Set is then get sold the book that goes along with that starter set. Indomitus, Dark Imperium and if not one of them, then a collection of short stories about Space Marines.
That has never been my experience. I'm not talking about in a Games Workshop either, I'm talking about online. There are way more folks coming into 40k through youtube lore videos and animations now than anything else. And plenty of them aren't here for the TT. Models, maybe, Novels, definitely. So when they ask for recommendations, what's always number one on those lists? Horus Rising.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 13:27:51


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Horus Rising is the best selling novel in the Black Library iirc, I see a lot of people being pointed towards it as their first '40k' novel.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree, and there's absolutely no reason that characters can't snuff it in 40k.

Fear of killing off characters, especially when dominated with 'fake-out deaths' coughrubiconcough is widely lamented as a poor trick used by spineless writers when it comes to TV or films.


Yeah. For me, I’ve no problem with Primaris or The Rubicon as such. But when multiple named characters get stabbed in one of their hearts, cross the Rubicon and come back twice as fighty? Once is kinda cool. Multiple times is just a bit boring.
Isn't that not what happened with Calgar though? Calgar crossed the Rubicon to ease tensions between Firstborn and Primaris. He was already Primaris when he was ripped apart by Abaddon.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

The changes from 2nd to 3rd (for example the speed changes between my Guard infantry and my genestealers with the earlier stark differences falling away) killed 40k for me until I was enticed back with 8th edition.

I am rapidly falling out of favour with 9th though with the use of Stratagems to replace strategy and tactics and the divergence from other wargames towards a more 'magic' end of the market, which I accept is more mainstream, but it still fundamentally isn't as rewarding or fun. Its made worse by getting some games of Epic Armageddon recently and being reminded GW can design good wargames when they actually want to.

Background wise? Primaris marines. Completely contrary to the ethos so far with the implications barely explored making the setting less internally consistent.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






jareddm wrote:
That has never been my experience. I'm not talking about in a Games Workshop either, I'm talking about online. There are way more folks coming into 40k through youtube lore videos and animations now than anything else. And plenty of them aren't here for the TT. Models, maybe, Novels, definitely. So when they ask for recommendations, what's always number one on those lists? Horus Rising.

I'll chalk it up to the UK/US divide in how people get started with Warhammer.
And as someone else has already said, Horus Rising is a bestselling novel and Dan Abnett is the best writer BL has to offer. The Heresy novels have some gems and considering that the Heresy is a niche within a fairly niche hobby (especially in the early 2000s), that any of them let alone eight, are placed on the NYT Bestsellers list is very impressive. If people are asking for novel recommendations you give them good novels, not the generic stuff like "Crusade and other Stories".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 13:49:33


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






jareddm wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree, and there's absolutely no reason that characters can't snuff it in 40k.

Fear of killing off characters, especially when dominated with 'fake-out deaths' coughrubiconcough is widely lamented as a poor trick used by spineless writers when it comes to TV or films.


Yeah. For me, I’ve no problem with Primaris or The Rubicon as such. But when multiple named characters get stabbed in one of their hearts, cross the Rubicon and come back twice as fighty? Once is kinda cool. Multiple times is just a bit boring.
Isn't that not what happened with Calgar though? Calgar crossed the Rubicon to ease tensions between Firstborn and Primaris. He was already Primaris when he was ripped apart by Abaddon.


If memory serves he got stabbed in the heart, Rubicon, then stabbed in the heart again.

This would require me re-reading pay check awakening again…

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Calgar crossed the Rubicon then got shanked by Abbadon.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Yeah it seems Calgar was fine when he underwent the procedure, but they really hammed up how "dying" is part of the rubicon surgery.

I think that Dark Angels character was the first one to be resurrected by doing it? Or was he just the first to be brought back from dead-dead? Either way, they did it with Ragnar and maybe Shrike as well?

EDIT: Just checked. Nah Shrike was fine at the time as well, he did it to prove his dedication apparently.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 14:02:00


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






The problem was setting up the procedure as being dangerous, then doing it on a bunch of named characters who all obviously had to survive. There wasn't some random Successor Chapter Master who did it first and then died making everyone scared again, it was First Founding Chapters with named heroes.
I like Primaris as a concept but the Rubicon was stupid and dumb.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 14:13:11


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Oh yeah it was definitely stupid hamming up the rubicon as some insanely deadly procedure and then using it on a bunch of named characters so it ends up with a negative mortality rate.

I can't say any of the rest of the new lore was handled much better though.
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

The rubicon isn’t exactly old lore though is it.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






Eh... I really dislike the fall of Cadia. That was completely unnecessary.

At the moment I don't like the design space that the Primaris Space Marines are in because it lacks direction. GW has not a clue what they want them to be or where to go with them.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






I'm not a terribly old timer, having started with DoWC and then on the TT at the transition from 4e to 5e, but I completely dislike the Fall of Cadia as well. I mean, it's the grimdark future and gak happens, but at the same time, Cadian is the only fully supported IG right now. The Catachan are a close second, but honestly their models are looking a bit cartoony these days and they're rarely actually stocked in stores.

I'm also not a big fan of Primaris since they seem to be pushing them as just bigger better SM, but then having to go back and bring the now called FB into line since they can't actually get rid of them either, making the whole thing a completely unnecessary expansion to what was already the most well balanced (options-wise only) and expanded faction while other factions are still using the same models from 20 years ago with very few options.
   
Made in de
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Nuremberg

I've got mixed feelings about the Heresy novels. On the one hand there are some great books in there (Horus Rising and First Heretic) and some fun page turners (Know No Fear and Betrayer) but there's an awful lot of dross too. Generally I think the series should have been shorter but more focused on Horus and they should have cut out the magic knife plot and worked a bit harder to give him real motivations to fall to Chaos. The wider impact on discourse around the background is the real negative effect - people mostly want to discuss primarchs and other heresy related stuff. And there's nothing really wrong with that, it's just not my cup of tea. It isn't helped by some of the new 'canon' being a lot less cool than what I imagined when I was younger, a bit of a Star Wars prequels effect there.

   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Yeah.

When the Heresy is good? It’s fantastic. It adds depth and nuance to what was a pretty basic story (Horus go naughty, some bro also naughty. Fighty fight fight!).

But there is a fair amount of filler. Now I’m not for one second gonna pretend my opinion on any given book is universal, let alone carefully considered. But I will say I lost interest when the novels dried up in favour of Kwik Kash limited editions and chapbooks etc. Because that was mostly filler.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





West Lafayette, IN

One tiny entry in the 5th Edition Marine codex pissed me off more than anything ever done in 40K lore.


When Matt Ward explained the three types of Marines to us: Ultramarines, We Wish We Were Ultramarines, and One Step From Chaos. That was probably the biggest slap in the face to the most players in one go. A close second would be the now infamous Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle debacle. Oh, look. Both by Ward.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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Executing Exarch





 Just Tony wrote:
One tiny entry in the 5th Edition Marine codex pissed me off more than anything ever done in 40K lore.


When Matt Ward explained the three types of Marines to us: Ultramarines, We Wish We Were Ultramarines, and One Step From Chaos. That was probably the biggest slap in the face to the most players in one go. A close second would be the now infamous Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle debacle. Oh, look. Both by Ward.


but on the upside he was being paid exactly what his ideas were worth, hopefully

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
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Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

mrFickle wrote:
Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?


this half-assed transition to a "moving" narrative that doesn't actually move. like others have said, we have these big, character driven fights that are meant to be "ULTIMATE SHOWDOWNS OF ULTIMATE DESTINY!", but the writers cannot bring themselves* to have a meaningful resolution with a actaul winner and a looser who suffers a serious setback because of it. like others have said, their is zero tension when you know that both characters will still be alive and available at the end of the book. Hell, they dont even do things like let the deamon protagonists "die" even though it's not permanent for them.

because nothing happens of note, the narrative doesnt move. which creates this annoying "its changed, but it sorta hasnt" feel that gets old quick.


they need to go whole hog with this and actually have things happen that rock the boat. Have a major marine character die crossing the primaris, then have his mantle taken up by a new character. have chaos start conquering larges swathes of the imperium, and have this shown on the maps, so that the threat is felt to be more like a real existential threat to the Imperium than a local problem to Madeup's World, Segmentum Solar. Have the lore for multiple xenos races reflect this sudden shift in the statue quo and their attempts to exploit it, or them running into chaos on a much greater basis than before. etc etc.


move. the. narritive. forward.

*or are not allowed to kill off/seriously change an established character because that would upset that factions fans.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
One tiny entry in the 5th Edition Marine codex pissed me off more than anything ever done in 40K lore.


When Matt Ward explained the three types of Marines to us: Ultramarines, We Wish We Were Ultramarines, and One Step From Chaos. That was probably the biggest slap in the face to the most players in one go. A close second would be the now infamous Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle debacle. Oh, look. Both by Ward.


but on the upside he was being paid exactly what his ideas were worth, hopefully


I entirely disagree.

The Codex Astartes was, in a certain way, a test of loyalty to the remaining Primarchs, at a time when loyalty was at a premium. The Codex Astartes does make sense, as it limited the military reach of the Primarchs.

Skip forward 10,000 years, and it’s more about the Letter of the Law, than the Spirit of the Law, as with pretty much everything Imperial.

It’s the 10 Monkies in a Cage, but repeated for 10,000 years. People know and accept you’re not meant to X, but they don’t really understand why.

Consider this, if you’d be so kind. The Inquisition is an organisation with theoretically limitless power. Said limitless power is kind of the point of them. Yet, with competing factions and theologies, they’re surprisingly effective at self regulating.

But, no Inquisitor alive in the modern 40K day has even the slightest concept of just how awful the Heresy was. They’ve never seen a Legion lay waste to a foe, regardless of whether that was a loyalist or traitor Legion. The sheer scale of slaughter anyone able to command tens of thousands of Astartes is frankly unimaginable.

However, they might have seen a single Astartes or a squad thereof work their bloody business. And see just how much of a threat to The Imperium those same warriors could be to The Imperium.

And really, it’s only an Inquisitor who might have the experience to appreciate the wisdom behind the Codex Astartes strict limits on how large a Chapter should be. To see “well, 1,000 of the buggers should get the job done”. And to then know that once upon a time, the Legions engaged in numbers to rival an Imperial Guard regiment? That’s……brown trousers o’clock. And so they support it, and indeed enforce it.

Other Imperial factions (ever Space Marine Chapter Masters) likely don’t have that level of perspective.

So from the Inquisitorial point of view? You do what you can to enforce that. Because the alternative is frankly unimaginable. Any Chapter heading into higher numbers of Brothers under arms? Yeah. You got to ask why, and assume an answer you’re not gonna like.

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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in es
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But the tiny 1000 astartes strong chapters are militarily insignificant.

You can give them epic levels of plot armor, Astartes arent that great threat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 19:58:22


 
   
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:
But the tiny 1000 astartes strong chapters are militarily insignificant.
What we are shown and told indicates otherwise.


They/them

 
   
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Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

mrFickle wrote:
Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?

The changing of Chaos Space Marines from ancient Warriors using ancient weapons and wielding the powers of Chaos as a weapon to wreak havoc on the Imperium they built into a bunch of ramshackle warbands fighting to impress the Chaos Gods, because the ultimate goal of every Heretic Astartes is to ascend to Daemenhood.

On behalf of the 8th Legion, your "Path to Glory".
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Indeed.

It’s not their direct comparable numbers. It’s how they’re deployed.

Few if any foes (foreign or domestic) can properly survive an Imperial Guard sledgehammer once the Astartes have ripped the arse off the command structure.

No commanders? No orders. No orders? Lessened response.

Want to collapse a Waaaaagh! Horribly murder the Warboss. Astartes can and will do that.

Want to break the Hive Mind, or at least draw its attention? Astartes can and will do that.

Eldar? Where’s your wussy Farseer, the Astartes are about to rip his head off.

Necrons? Oh no! Your Phaeron got roflstomped! There go your command protocols.

And so on and so forth.

Astartes in their current incarnation are stalemate resolvers. Few can stand against them one on one. They are terror troops. Every shot causes one of your friends to detonate. You can hit them with anti-tank weapons, and they can still walk away. When they get up close and personal? Their pistols are still detonating your mates, their chainswords are kicking our raw gobbets of meat. Oh, and they’re crashing through walls whilst doing it.

Taken their arm off? They don’t care.

Deployed at full Chapter Strength? Yeah. Good luck with that. Not to say it can’t be done, but you need serious numbers on your side to carry the day.

Now….the Astartes Legions? Tens if not hundreds of thousands of Astartes? There’s nothing they cannot collectively achieve.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
But the tiny 1000 astartes strong chapters are militarily insignificant.
What we are shown and told indicates otherwise.


What we are shown is mostly nonsensical... Is in universe propaganda for the ignorant imperial citizens and bolter porn to fullfill the power fantasies of the fanboys.

Space Marines dont resist any serious scrutiny of their military capabilities, if you do so they are reduce to a joke rather than a menace to anyone.
   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Oh you sweet summer child with ribbons in your hair.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Indeed.

It’s not their direct comparable numbers. It’s how they’re deployed.

Few if any foes (foreign or domestic) can properly survive an Imperial Guard sledgehammer once the Astartes have ripped the arse off the command structure.

No commanders? No orders. No orders? Lessened response.

Want to collapse a Waaaaagh! Horribly murder the Warboss. Astartes can and will do that.

Want to break the Hive Mind, or at least draw its attention? Astartes can and will do that.

Eldar? Where’s your wussy Farseer, the Astartes are about to rip his head off.

Necrons? Oh no! Your Phaeron got roflstomped! There go your command protocols.

And so on and so forth.

Astartes in their current incarnation are stalemate resolvers. Few can stand against them one on one. They are terror troops. Every shot causes one of your friends to detonate. You can hit them with anti-tank weapons, and they can still walk away. When they get up close and personal? Their pistols are still detonating your mates, their chainswords are kicking our raw gobbets of meat. Oh, and they’re crashing through walls whilst doing it.

Taken their arm off? They don’t care.

Deployed at full Chapter Strength? Yeah. Good luck with that. Not to say it can’t be done, but you need serious numbers on your side to carry the day.

Now….the Astartes Legions? Tens if not hundreds of thousands of Astartes? There’s nothing they cannot collectively achieve.


And spite of this propaganda and self help talks Astartes chapters are tiny military units, with huge limitations... The are the less capable of the military forces of the 40k universe: They lack the numbers, resources and logistics of the Imperial Guard... There reproduction as bioweapons is slow and expensive compared to the masterpieces of biowarfare that are orks and tiranids... There technology is barbaric compare to the one wielded by Eldars or Necrons, or even the Admech... Astartes as a folk tale sound terrifying but as an actual combat force they are almost harmless in interstellar conflicts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 20:31:53


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?

The changing of Chaos Space Marines from ancient Warriors using ancient weapons and wielding the powers of Chaos as a weapon to wreak havoc on the Imperium they built into a bunch of ramshackle warbands fighting to impress the Chaos Gods, because the ultimate goal of every Heretic Astartes is to ascend to Daemenhood.

On behalf of the 8th Legion, your "Path to Glory".


Agree totally, they almost have that baddie vibe from Saturday morning cartoons where they will never beat the baddies because they are either stabbing each other in the back, over complicating things or the leaders are surrounded by morons. I’ve really struggled to develop a clear picture of who Chaos Space Marines are these days. The codex somehow manages to be be to broad to try and cater to fluff wrapped around the traitor legions whilst only really providing the necessary units to play black legion, thematically speaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When CSM first broke onto the scene they were the past coming back to haunt the imperium but now I feel like, except for abbadon, it’s the black legion that only really counts as CSM and those marines are from who know where. And DG and TS are something separate now from CSM, probably that doesn’t make sense

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 20:44:32


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Vatsetis wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Indeed.

It’s not their direct comparable numbers. It’s how they’re deployed.

Few if any foes (foreign or domestic) can properly survive an Imperial Guard sledgehammer once the Astartes have ripped the arse off the command structure.

No commanders? No orders. No orders? Lessened response.

Want to collapse a Waaaaagh! Horribly murder the Warboss. Astartes can and will do that.

Want to break the Hive Mind, or at least draw its attention? Astartes can and will do that.

Eldar? Where’s your wussy Farseer, the Astartes are about to rip his head off.

Necrons? Oh no! Your Phaeron got roflstomped! There go your command protocols.

And so on and so forth.

Astartes in their current incarnation are stalemate resolvers. Few can stand against them one on one. They are terror troops. Every shot causes one of your friends to detonate. You can hit them with anti-tank weapons, and they can still walk away. When they get up close and personal? Their pistols are still detonating your mates, their chainswords are kicking our raw gobbets of meat. Oh, and they’re crashing through walls whilst doing it.

Taken their arm off? They don’t care.

Deployed at full Chapter Strength? Yeah. Good luck with that. Not to say it can’t be done, but you need serious numbers on your side to carry the day.

Now….the Astartes Legions? Tens if not hundreds of thousands of Astartes? There’s nothing they cannot collectively achieve.


And spite of this propaganda and self help talks Astartes chapters are tiny military units, with huge limitations... The are the less capable of the military forces of the 40k universe: They lack the numbers, resources and logistics of the Imperial Guard... There reproduction as bioweapons is slow and expensive compared to the masterpieces of biowarfare that are orks and tiranids... There technology is barbaric compare to the one wielded by Eldars or Necrons, or even the Admech... Astartes as a folk tale sound terrifying but as an actual combat force they are almost harmless in interstellar conflicts.


Have you read any of the background? At all?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





mrFickle wrote:
I think people disliking the HH and the way it’s impacted 40K is interesting because I remember reading snippets about the primarchs and the HH and really wanting to know more. But I think it was the mystery that made it exciting as you imagine what might have happened.


that and not everyone agrees on anything. I mean the HH series is GW's best selling novel series so clearly a lot of people do wanna know more. but yeah some people think it worked better as a bit of a mystery. I can understand both points of view TBH

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
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