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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I don't know, it just leans into the superman myth-but-not bit a *little* closer than I'm personally comfortable with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But then, I like my marines as brainwashed convicts, so... biases, worn on sleeve

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 17:32:54


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I'm not against a few Deathwatch Killteams teaming up occasionally for exceptional circumstances.
But it's become almost standard operating procedures, and they're employing literally a small army. IMO it devalues the Deathwatch as a small team of specialists if they're fielding anything on that scale.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 18:05:18


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I agree turning deathwatch into a chapter with a codex was poor and feels like they were trying to do marines+.

They suit kill team but as it stands I just think GW were milking the SM cow for everything they could.

   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I only started in 2016, but I miss objectively good guys, like Cain and Vulkan. Granted both of them have never been confirmed dead, but I mean more written out of the lore/we haven't seen or heard from them in over a decade?
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






I mean Cain is dead at some point but that's like 50 odd years into M.42 which the timeline isn't near right now. Vulkan is Vulkan.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
I mean Cain is dead at some point but that's like 50 odd years into M.42 which the timeline isn't near right now. Vulkan is Vulkan.


Last I checked (and I'm a Horus Heresy guy), Vulkan was utterly bonkers as only a man who is immortal and nobody thought to tell him could be.which was kinda neat in the way it undercut the whole perpetual thing. They "fixed" it... didn't they..?
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I only started in 2016, but I miss objectively good guys, like Cain and Vulkan. Granted both of them have never been confirmed dead, but I mean more written out of the lore/we haven't seen or heard from them in over a decade?


Cain's still around, he had a novella published about a year or so ago.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Catulle wrote:
Last I checked (and I'm a Horus Heresy guy), Vulkan was utterly bonkers as only a man who is immortal and nobody thought to tell him could be.which was kinda neat in the way it undercut the whole perpetual thing. They "fixed" it... didn't they..?

Currently, Vulkan in the Heresy is (spoilers for Deathfire and Old Earth IIRC)
Spoiler:
on Terra standing guard beside the Golden Throne just in case the Emperor fails and the webway opens. He's got a psychic doomsday device that will destroy Terra if the Emperor dies. He's very sane and alive.

Post Heresy (spoilers for Beast Arises)
Spoiler:
Vulkan "died" fighting the Beast on Ullanor, which turned out to be one of seven. Basically Vulkan died for nothing and he hasn't been seen since, despite his perpetuality.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

I'm not fond of some of the changes to ship lore, with Lunar classes flitting around during the Heresy, even though in the original lore, it wasn't a mainline of the Navy until M36.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Gert wrote:
Catulle wrote:
Last I checked (and I'm a Horus Heresy guy), Vulkan was utterly bonkers as only a man who is immortal and nobody thought to tell him could be.which was kinda neat in the way it undercut the whole perpetual thing. They "fixed" it... didn't they..?

Currently, Vulkan in the Heresy is (spoilers for Deathfire and Old Earth IIRC)
Spoiler:
on Terra standing guard beside the Golden Throne just in case the Emperor fails and the webway opens. He's got a psychic doomsday device that will destroy Terra if the Emperor dies. He's very sane and alive.

Post Heresy (spoilers for Beast Arises)
Spoiler:
Vulkan "died" fighting the Beast on Ullanor, which turned out to be one of seven. Basically Vulkan died for nothing and he hasn't been seen since, despite his perpetuality.


I really thought that bit with vulkan in war of the beast was lame, if you're gonna bring a primarch back just to have him go out like a putz....... why bother?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Catulle wrote:
Last I checked (and I'm a Horus Heresy guy), Vulkan was utterly bonkers as only a man who is immortal and nobody thought to tell him could be.which was kinda neat in the way it undercut the whole perpetual thing. They "fixed" it... didn't they..?

Currently, Vulkan in the Heresy is (spoilers for Deathfire and Old Earth IIRC)
Spoiler:
on Terra standing guard beside the Golden Throne just in case the Emperor fails and the webway opens. He's got a psychic doomsday device that will destroy Terra if the Emperor dies. He's very sane and alive.

Post Heresy (spoilers for Beast Arises)
Spoiler:
Vulkan "died" fighting the Beast on Ullanor, which turned out to be one of seven. Basically Vulkan died for nothing and he hasn't been seen since, despite his perpetuality.


Damnit, Bueller!
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Malcador was a Perpetual, and he died after being exposed to almost the same thing as Vulkan, right? Unchecked raw pure warp energy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I only started in 2016, but I miss objectively good guys, like Cain and Vulkan. Granted both of them have never been confirmed dead, but I mean more written out of the lore/we haven't seen or heard from them in over a decade?


Cain's still around, he had a novella published about a year or so ago.


Was that a compilation/compendium of older books, or a entirely new book? I was under the misapprehension that Cain's last book was in the early to mid 00's. Also, with Cain, he's basically a Marvel Character at this point. They can bring him back whenever they need to, "Poof, HE WAS ALIVE THIS WHOLE TIME!"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/06 01:33:14


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Was that a compilation/compendium of older books, or a entirely new book? I was under the misapprehension that Cain's last book was in the early to mid 00's. Also, with Cain, he's basically a Marvel Character at this point. They can bring him back whenever they need to, "Poof, HE WAS ALIVE THIS WHOLE TIME!"




New one. Last Night at the Resplendent was a novella that came out last year.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Malcador was a Perpetual, and he died after being exposed to almost the same thing as Vulkan, right? Unchecked raw pure warp energy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I only started in 2016, but I miss objectively good guys, like Cain and Vulkan. Granted both of them have never been confirmed dead, but I mean more written out of the lore/we haven't seen or heard from them in over a decade?


Cain's still around, he had a novella published about a year or so ago.


Was that a compilation/compendium of older books, or a entirely new book? I was under the misapprehension that Cain's last book was in the early to mid 00's. Also, with Cain, he's basically a Marvel Character at this point. They can bring him back whenever they need to, "Poof, HE WAS ALIVE THIS WHOLE TIME!"


his last full length novel was in 2018 but he's appered in short stories since then.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Cain is dead in universe according to Vail's notes on his memoirs.

Obviously stories can still feature him by just being set earlier in the timeline; although after a while it's better that good stories/series actually end, rather than shambling on forever with the exploits of characters becoming increasingly unbelievable.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





thing is cain has ALWAYS been dead. Cain isn't a GW character so much as a character from one author's novel series (BTW if anyone likes the Cain novels and is unaware, the novels are HEAVILY inspired by the flashman papers... which are basicly best summed up as "Victorian era Cain") So if he's appering less is proably more the writer not having any good ideas, or busy writing something else etc.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Humorless Arbite





California

For me things started getting worse with the big necron revamp. Then it's gradually gotten worse ever since. I actually think the dark eldar 7th edition...or was it 6th...I don't even know. But when the range was revamped almost entirely, that was a good book, good lore.

 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Thargrim wrote:
For me things started getting worse with the big necron revamp. Then it's gradually gotten worse ever since. I actually think the dark eldar 7th edition...or was it 6th...I don't even know. But when the range was revamped almost entirely, that was a good book, good lore.


that was 5th edition. same edition as the Necron "great retconning"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/06 07:18:35


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Basecoated Black





England

Orks losing the quirky humorous charm (RT and 2nd), instead becoming feral green gorilla like creatures.

The Screamer-Killer Carnifex becoming irrelevant.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





mrFickle wrote:
I agree turning deathwatch into a chapter with a codex was poor and feels like they were trying to do marines+.

They suit kill team but as it stands I just think GW were milking the SM cow for everything they could.



See, I don't think of DW as marines at all; I think of them as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. It was stoopid edition churn that prevented GW from releasing Alien Hunters in 3rd ed despite releasing both Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters. As far as I'm concerned, giving DW a dex/supplement was a way of making it up to us beardy folk who have been playing long enough that we're still bitter we got screwed over five editions ago.



   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

PenitentJake wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I agree turning deathwatch into a chapter with a codex was poor and feels like they were trying to do marines+.

They suit kill team but as it stands I just think GW were milking the SM cow for everything they could.



See, I don't think of DW as marines at all; I think of them as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. It was stoopid edition churn that prevented GW from releasing Alien Hunters in 3rd ed despite releasing both Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters. As far as I'm concerned, giving DW a dex/supplement was a way of making it up to us beardy folk who have been playing long enough that we're still bitter we got screwed over five editions ago.





I love deathwatch. Look cool, great background, etc.

They don’t need to be a full army. And they are not alone. I feel the same way about grey knights, harlequins, imperial knights, LotD, scions, and probably more that I’m forgetting. All those things that started out as one unit, maybe with a character or two that got spun up into a bloated stand alone force. Keep them small. We can easily ally things these days.

Take a kill team or two. Add a character. But if you want all the whistles and bells of a full marine force, just ally in a normal chapter. Which is what would happen in my headcannon if a KT found something that needed that level of firepower. If the inquisitor or whoever was leading the mission found out they needed more firepower then a couple veterans could do with a surgical strike, they would go to the nearest chapter with relations to the Deathwatch and ask to borrow a demi company, or whatever force was needed. Not call back to the watch fortress for stuff they really have no business needing.

Super special hyper rare things are fine as a 0-1 elite pick, or a special ally cherry on top on another army. Taking a full table of them cheapens their uniqueness. Also leans into the one-upmanship that now has full forces of custodies on the field.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well, tell you what- you and I will have to respectfully disagree.

I suppose I shouldn't have brought game content in background thread in the first place, though I hadn't expected an immediate response shutting down 4 armies and alienating all the players who love them just because "You can always ally with good ole, run of the mill space marines"

I play 25 PL Deathwatch- it's twelve infantry models- A Watchmaster leading a Proteus team of 5 and Kyria Draxus leading a Fortis Team of five.

Funny thing about that little force? Even as small as it is, it's still better for having a supplement. Ninth ed isn't exclusively about 2k battles anymore.

Anyway, like I said, not the right forum to talk about the game anyway. Peace out.



   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Orks losing the quirky humorous charm (RT and 2nd), instead becoming feral green gorilla like creatures.
.


Yes I wasn't a fan of that too. I know an element still remains of that with the Orks, but them becoming a lot more 'nasty' has switched me off them a bit - although I'm sure it makes them a more attractive force for 40k and things like that!

If you are still a fan check out Space Marine Epic 2nd edition (or the fan remake NetEpic), their representation in that game still carries much of the fun and randomness of the Ork faction as it was released around that time; Ork clans following their nature if you fall out of command (Evil Sunz go racing, Goffs will charge), mad Mekboy weapons and contraptions, Cults of speed and things like that.

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

PenitentJake wrote:
Well, tell you what- you and I will have to respectfully disagree.

I suppose I shouldn't have brought game content in background thread in the first place, though I hadn't expected an immediate response shutting down 4 armies and alienating all the players who love them just because "You can always ally with good ole, run of the mill space marines"

I play 25 PL Deathwatch- it's twelve infantry models- A Watchmaster leading a Proteus team of 5 and Kyria Draxus leading a Fortis Team of five.

Funny thing about that little force? Even as small as it is, it's still better for having a supplement. Ninth ed isn't exclusively about 2k battles anymore.

Anyway, like I said, not the right forum to talk about the game anyway. Peace out.


Sorry, my bad here.

It’s one of those things that crosses over background and rules for me. And a bit of a hot button. IMHO things like grey knights and deathwatch have a mystique of being elite and special. Or should. Seeing them deployed army-strength in pickup games lessens that for me. As an old timer, it remember before they got the full army treatment, and that’s the vision I like to have for them. Now they feel like they are just silver marines or black armored marines with some special rules. I know they still have the background and lore, but it’s all intertwined with what I see on the table

I do recognize that the ship has sailed. Newer players (and that’s most people) have a completely different vision of these armies. And that’s OK. I don’t advocate the squatting of anyone’s army, but there are some I wish were never fleshed out to that level.


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Whilst I heavily prefer the lore of 'Knights and Deathwatch being single squads doing special stuff, with only really 'Knights ever talked about doing big deployments (and that is once a millennia events), I can kinda justify it with these 2000 point forces everyone loves (honestly higher point values routinely just aren't fun, no idea why people keep playing it) being still a small force, or in the case of the deathwatch I like to imagine its the entire watchstation deploying.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





The_Real_Chris wrote:
Whilst I heavily prefer the lore of 'Knights and Deathwatch being single squads doing special stuff, with only really 'Knights ever talked about doing big deployments (and that is once a millennia events), I can kinda justify it with these 2000 point forces everyone loves (honestly higher point values routinely just aren't fun, no idea why people keep playing it) being still a small force, or in the case of the deathwatch I like to imagine its the entire watchstation deploying.


My DW force will grow a bit- 5 Vanguard Vets to finish the Proteus Team, 5 Outriders to finish the Fortis team. And Indomitor team of 5 HI's and 5 Agressors. A Corvus Blackstar... And I'll have to put in a second Proteus to a) balance Old Marines and Primaris (two 10 man teams of each) and b) take up the remaining seats in the Corvus.

Beyond that? They'll get a Librarian and a Chaplain.

Usually, I'll only deploy 2/4 of the teams- one old, one new. Also 2/4 HQ. The whole Fortress would only deploy in the most dire of emergencies.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Nevelon wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I agree turning deathwatch into a chapter with a codex was poor and feels like they were trying to do marines+.

They suit kill team but as it stands I just think GW were milking the SM cow for everything they could.



See, I don't think of DW as marines at all; I think of them as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. It was stoopid edition churn that prevented GW from releasing Alien Hunters in 3rd ed despite releasing both Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters. As far as I'm concerned, giving DW a dex/supplement was a way of making it up to us beardy folk who have been playing long enough that we're still bitter we got screwed over five editions ago.





I love deathwatch. Look cool, great background, etc.

They don’t need to be a full army. And they are not alone. I feel the same way about grey knights, harlequins, imperial knights, LotD, scions, and probably more that I’m forgetting. All those things that started out as one unit, maybe with a character or two that got spun up into a bloated stand alone force. Keep them small. We can easily ally things these days.

Take a kill team or two. Add a character. But if you want all the whistles and bells of a full marine force, just ally in a normal chapter. Which is what would happen in my headcannon if a KT found something that needed that level of firepower. If the inquisitor or whoever was leading the mission found out they needed more firepower then a couple veterans could do with a surgical strike, they would go to the nearest chapter with relations to the Deathwatch and ask to borrow a demi company, or whatever force was needed. Not call back to the watch fortress for stuff they really have no business needing.

Super special hyper rare things are fine as a 0-1 elite pick, or a special ally cherry on top on another army. Taking a full table of them cheapens their uniqueness. Also leans into the one-upmanship that now has full forces of custodies on the field.


The funny part to me is that if you want to play OG Deathwatch, all you have to do is field a Sternguard Squad, because when Sternguard were created they were nearly copy-pasted from the original DW WD article.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

 Insectum7 wrote:

The funny part to me is that if you want to play OG Deathwatch, all you have to do is field a Sternguard Squad, because when Sternguard were created they were nearly copy-pasted from the original DW WD article.


Before they had a codex I put together a squad with the shoulder pads I got in the captain and command squad boxes. Don’t know if I got a chance to field them before the new rules dropped, but that was the plan.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






BrianDavion wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
For me things started getting worse with the big necron revamp. Then it's gradually gotten worse ever since. I actually think the dark eldar 7th edition...or was it 6th...I don't even know. But when the range was revamped almost entirely, that was a good book, good lore.


that was 5th edition. same edition as the Necron "great retconning"
The Necron book was basically proto-6th iirc, released just a couple months before 6th . . . complete with the new flyers. I think that DE book was mid 5th? Squeezed in between five Marine codexes somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nevelon wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

The funny part to me is that if you want to play OG Deathwatch, all you have to do is field a Sternguard Squad, because when Sternguard were created they were nearly copy-pasted from the original DW WD article.


Before they had a codex I put together a squad with the shoulder pads I got in the captain and command squad boxes. Don’t know if I got a chance to field them before the new rules dropped, but that was the plan.
Yeah for a while you could order Deathwatch shoulder pads, bolters and helmets from GW (all metal). I still have some of those around somewhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/21 05:41:24


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I had a Deathwatch and an AdMech army before GW went and made rules for them.

It's all about being ahead of the curve.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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