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Speaking of cope,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s more to reinforce we’ve nothing like enough information for any particular conclusion.

People were adamant that 2nd Edition wasn’t selling. People were adamant that Legions Imperialis wasn’t selling. Some folk just love to whine, and will interpret anything as support for said whine. Ref folk turning up in this thread as Outrage Farmers who, rather conspicuously, have never commented on Heresy stuff prior.

So…yeah. We’ve a single online retailer offering a healthier than normal discount. And that’s all we know.

lmao.

Of course we have enough information for a particular conclusion.
Information: a major retailer has decided to offer a heretofore unprecedented discount on a tentpole product that is still in the preorder window.
Conclusion: a major retailer felt their Saturnine sales were soft enough that they had to sacrifice their expected profits in an effort to achieve acceptable return.

We can make this conclusion based on a wealth of accumulated knowledge, including wildly theoretical leaps like "how stores work"

For some reason you're licking boot and attempting to die on the most logic broiest of hills. "Attention, good sirs," he spake, adjusting his fedora and blue-tinted spectacles. "Is it not merely possible that the owner of Wayland Games is merely a tremendous fan of The Horus Heresy, and is merely engaged in a noble campaign to promote the health and success of said aforementioned tabletopian gaming system, by investisacrificing his own monetary currencies? Merely?"

Yeah dude yeah it's totally possible. It's possible you can drink a gallon of toilet water and get Toiletman superpowers, too. We simply cannot know FOR SURE.

Every edition comes with complaints so it can be hard to tell if this is just the expected or if there are actually enough people put off by the changes that it will not be as successful as previous edition(s). Only time will tell at this point.

 Albertorius wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Oh that's not a good look

What's interesting to me is it implies internet hype/dooming has a massive impact on sales, as I don't see a reason for HH 3.0 to tank other than the leaks of how horrible it is. Aren't we supposed to be the loud minority, either way?

I have seen some cope-adjacent commentary about this. Some thinking seems to be that it's either the units in the box not being greatly appealing for either new players or veterans, or the rules changes turning veterans off.

One source of that is the Lords of War youtube channel (this video). But they also predicted the Saturnine box would be a gangbusters release and then walked it back when they saw the soft sales and started workshopping the excuses I present above.

There's a huge list of reasons it won't be a massive success, the negativity wave is just the icing on the cake really. You have to remember the game is 95% space marines and people are forever fed up of having space marines shoved in their face. For a lot of people 40k is the entry path to 30k, so a lot of them simply lose access to their faction of choice in return for... marines as far as the eye can see.

That was exactly the same for the 2.0 boxes, though, and it seems they sold better, initially at least.

It did because you had a decade or more of HH curious who didn't want to dive in whilst it was all resin, so they grabbed that market chunk with 2.0, there's no assurances that they'll all want the 3.0 box however as they either may dislike saturnine units or simply not need another 40 dudes and a turret etc.

It's also an expensive "what if I give this a go?" which is a big detractor. It's also not really a proper entry product, there's no real division of forces or rules to support the two halves (whatever they may be) playing off against each other. In fact the whole box is basically a giant start collecting to look at it differently, for a sub-game of old 40k that is larger and more expensive to get into.

There have been two marine boxes already, maybe I'm projecting my own feelings on it, but I can't see someone who has built up a force around a particular mark of armor being willing to pay for a big box of even more marines.

Especially when GW decided to just spam the same 5 poses.

Add to that the edition change pessimism and the box seems like a hard sell.

And maybe you can argue the box isn't for existing players, but I don't see HH having the same lifecycle of new player churn as 40k. I think GW miscalculated in that regard.

Dudeface wrote:
It did because you had a decade or more of HH curious who didn't want to dive in whilst it was all resin, so they grabbed that market chunk with 2.0, there's no assurances that they'll all want the 3.0 box however as they either may dislike saturnine units or simply not need another 40 dudes and a turret etc.

It's also an expensive "what if I give this a go?" which is a big detractor. It's also not really a proper entry product, there's no real division of forces or rules to support the two halves (whatever they may be) playing off against each other. In fact the whole box is basically a giant start collecting to look at it differently, for a sub-game of old 40k that is larger and more expensive to get into.

So you think now there's a sort of overabundance then? For the price at least, which I absolutely agree is a turnoff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScarletRose wrote:
There have been two marine boxes already, maybe I'm projecting my own feelings on it, but I can't see someone who has built up a force around a particular mark of armor being willing to pay for a big box of even more marines.

Especially when GW decided to just spam the same 5 poses.

Add to that the edition change pessimism and the box seems like a hard sell.

And maybe you can argue the box isn't for existing players, but I don't see HH having the same lifecycle of new player churn as 40k. I think GW miscalculated in that regard.

More like four, if we count the two HH boardgames that came filled to the brim with marines for about half as much as this box.

 Albertorius wrote:

That was exactly the same for the 2.0 boxes, though, and it seems they sold better, initially at least.

Big issue I can see is that 2.0 box was plastic spartan and contemptor plus a ton of infantry that could be used in 40k armies as well at the time, so there were 2 markets for the box, not just hh players

The Saturnine is not a very attractive design, it looks mostly like all that 40k Primaris Toy Ghak...

I agree, not many need more Marines, or a new (not needed) unit like the Saturnine, or the new Dread.

Buchpreisbindung is indeed, a law.

 Altruizine wrote:
Speaking of cope,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s more to reinforce we’ve nothing like enough information for any particular conclusion.

People were adamant that 2nd Edition wasn’t selling. People were adamant that Legions Imperialis wasn’t selling. Some folk just love to whine, and will interpret anything as support for said whine. Ref folk turning up in this thread as Outrage Farmers who, rather conspicuously, have never commented on Heresy stuff prior.

So…yeah. We’ve a single online retailer offering a healthier than normal discount. And that’s all we know.

lmao.

Of course we have enough information for a particular conclusion.
Information: a major retailer has decided to offer a heretofore unprecedented discount on a tentpole product that is still in the preorder window.
Conclusion: a major retailer felt their Saturnine sales were soft enough that they had to sacrifice their expected profits in an effort to achieve acceptable return.

We can make this conclusion based on a wealth of accumulated knowledge, including wildly theoretical leaps like "how stores work"

For some reason you're licking boot and attempting to die on the most logic broiest of hills. "Attention, good sirs," he spake, adjusting his fedora and blue-tinted spectacles. "Is it not merely possible that the owner of Wayland Games is merely a tremendous fan of The Horus Heresy, and is merely engaged in a noble campaign to promote the health and success of said aforementioned tabletopian gaming system, by investisacrificing his own monetary currencies? Merely?"

Yeah dude yeah it's totally possible. It's possible you can drink a gallon of toilet water and get Toiletman superpowers, too. We simply cannot know FOR SURE.

Let’s ingnore the rest of your mince.

A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

I’m sure you can see The Underpants Gnomes logic of your claim, yes? Because if you can, you’ll need to try much, much harder to convince me

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

The biggest independent, Warhammer selling online store in UK and Europe feels that they are not getting back their investment on the new HH releases and therefore has deeply discounted them before it's even released, just on the strength of the preorders.

That amounts to what we can see, nothing else regarding the sales of GW itself, or other storefronts (although others seem to be further discounting their stuff too), and of course, it's way too early to say if a full edition of a game is a dud or not just with preorders.

But we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them.

AoD hit more marks than this IMO.
Major plastic boost (Spartan, fully posable Contemptor, another armour mark) was the big one.
Throw in Mk6 being a big nostalgia hit for a lot of people due to Rogue Trader.

Saturnine armour didn't really exist outside of fanwork which was assumed to be one of the older Terminator models.
Mk2 likewise is a cool armour but not the same level of history and iconic look as Mk6.
The gun turret just isn't as big a draw as a big plastic tank and the Saturnine Dread is nowhere near as famous as the Contemptor nor as sought after.
It's like someone had an idea of what nostalgia is conceptually, but hasn't ever actually experienced it.

RazorEdge wrote:

I agree, not many need more Marines, or a new (not needed) unit like the Saturnine, or the new Dread.

You're right, I don't need more Marines (that ship sailed decades ago), Satunine, or the new Saturnine Dread. I want them. It's an important difference.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

The biggest independent, Warhammer selling online store in UK and Europe feels that they are not getting back their investment on the new HH releases and therefore has deeply discounted them before it's even released, just on the strength of the preorders.

That amounts to what we can see, nothing else regarding the sales of GW itself, or other storefronts (although others seem to be further discounting their stuff too), and of course, it's way too early to say if a full edition of a game is a dud or not just with preorders.

But we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them.

And yet…..the four I buy from with varying regularity and preference haven’t.

What’s more likely? Wayland may have over ordered. Wayland might be trying to steal a march and future sales with a deeper discount. Or the game isn’t selling anywhere ever, despite other large online suppliers not deepening their discount?

There are of course other possibilities (maybe Wayland is somehow deep in the financial poop, and need a swift return is an out there, unsupported but ultimately possible explanation) I’ve not covered.

But the Droop Group are out in force. And as with Altruizine, attacking the messenger rather than the message. Which is definitely a sign you’re definitely right and haven’t been given at least pause for thought, whether or not the pause lasts terribly long.

It might very well be a dud. I don’t, and haven’t, ruled that out. But given we’re necessarily dealing with extremely limited factual information? I’m gonna take the piss out of premature doom mongers, doom mongering on account they’ve seemingly eff all better to do.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

The biggest independent, Warhammer selling online store in UK and Europe feels that they are not getting back their investment on the new HH releases and therefore has deeply discounted them before it's even released, just on the strength of the preorders.

That amounts to what we can see, nothing else regarding the sales of GW itself, or other storefronts (although others seem to be further discounting their stuff too), and of course, it's way too early to say if a full edition of a game is a dud or not just with preorders.

But we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them.

And yet…..the four I buy from with varying regularity and preference haven’t.

Yes, that tracks with what you've quoted.

 Altruizine wrote:

Yeah dude yeah it's totally possible. It's possible you can drink a gallon of toilet water and get Toiletman superpowers, too. We simply cannot know FOR SURE.

Not with that attitude you can't, no.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to get to drinking!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
Speaking of cope,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s more to reinforce we’ve nothing like enough information for any particular conclusion.

People were adamant that 2nd Edition wasn’t selling. People were adamant that Legions Imperialis wasn’t selling. Some folk just love to whine, and will interpret anything as support for said whine. Ref folk turning up in this thread as Outrage Farmers who, rather conspicuously, have never commented on Heresy stuff prior.

So…yeah. We’ve a single online retailer offering a healthier than normal discount. And that’s all we know.

lmao.

Of course we have enough information for a particular conclusion.
Information: a major retailer has decided to offer a heretofore unprecedented discount on a tentpole product that is still in the preorder window.
Conclusion: a major retailer felt their Saturnine sales were soft enough that they had to sacrifice their expected profits in an effort to achieve acceptable return.

We can make this conclusion based on a wealth of accumulated knowledge, including wildly theoretical leaps like "how stores work"

For some reason you're licking boot and attempting to die on the most logic broiest of hills. "Attention, good sirs," he spake, adjusting his fedora and blue-tinted spectacles. "Is it not merely possible that the owner of Wayland Games is merely a tremendous fan of The Horus Heresy, and is merely engaged in a noble campaign to promote the health and success of said aforementioned tabletopian gaming system, by investisacrificing his own monetary currencies? Merely?"

Yeah dude yeah it's totally possible. It's possible you can drink a gallon of toilet water and get Toiletman superpowers, too. We simply cannot know FOR SURE.

Let’s ingnore the rest of your mince.

A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

I’m sure you can see The Underpants Gnomes logic of your claim, yes? Because if you can, you’ll need to try much, much harder to convince me

The big box for the new edition, which suffers from not being a fomo item (god it hurts to type that), has been allocated to stores based on their expected interest in the big summer release. Wayland is the one with the big discount, yes, but literally nowhere has reported any stock shortfalls, pending orders for 2nd waves or anything of the ilk.

This gives 3 likely outcomes:

1. Stores bought far too much and are in trouble - this is bad for them and bad as an indicator of the success of HH if their sales estimates were off other similar boxes
2. GW made too many - this is bad for GW as they have excess stock and likely over-egged their forecast. It's bad for the game as it leads to lower support
3. It simply isn't that popular - this is bad for everyone

Right. But you’re still not covering all the bases.

How many did GW make? How many did Wayland order? How many has Wayland sold on pre-order? What about the other online discount sellers?

We don’t know. And we’ll never know.

What if Wayland wanted to order, let’s say with a number out my arse purely for demonstration, 1,000 copies. But someone blobbed the order, and typed 3,000?

There, you’re in a quandary. Because if they did over order? You assume there’s no Sale Or Return contract with GW as the seller.

I don’t know and won’t pretend to know what the truth of the matter is, including on the Sale or Return. But I will point out for all the complaints about GW toward 3rd Party Sellers, a lack of Sale or Return isn’t something I recall turning up. Granted, that’s not proof either way.

Ultimately, outside of people with nothing better to do than whine about a company that doesn’t care about them? We’ve nowt beyond simple observation.

I’m happy to admit I’m wrong on these things, if and/or when better and greater information is available. But I’m confident the Droop Group will just flounce away on to the next moan, like nothing ever happened.

I was strongly tempted by the age of darkness box because it seemed like a great deal. I held off because I don't really need more marines and the tank though cool is imo impractically huge, but I did consider buying it a good few times.

With this box I was honestly never that interested. I like the armour on the marines more in this one, but I dislike the Saturnine designs on everything but the dreadnaught and hate the scale creep involved, and I'm not at all interested in gun turrets. Even if I liked that stuff, I still felt it was a worse deal than Age of Darkness, and knowing it's joining the 3 year threadmill makes my perception of the value of the rulebook drop quite a lot (whereas before I saw Heresy as a "stable" game, albeit using an edition of 40K I had negative memories of).

So it's not unbelievable to me that people are just cool on this box because it doesn't represent good value to them.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A single store has offered a deeper discount than normal for a boxed set which, being an ongoing stock item cannot sell out. Therefore……that’s a sign the game is a dud.

The biggest independent, Warhammer selling online store in UK and Europe feels that they are not getting back their investment on the new HH releases and therefore has deeply discounted them before it's even released, just on the strength of the preorders.

That amounts to what we can see, nothing else regarding the sales of GW itself, or other storefronts (although others seem to be further discounting their stuff too), and of course, it's way too early to say if a full edition of a game is a dud or not just with preorders.

But we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them.

And yet…..the four I buy from with varying regularity and preference haven’t.

Yes, that tracks with what you've quoted.

Please don’t edit quotes in that way. I’m happy to assume it was a hamfisted attempt at paraphrasing, but it’s still extremely bad form.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Right. But you’re still not covering all the bases.

How many did GW make? How many did Wayland order? How many has Wayland sold on pre-order? What about the other online discount sellers?

We don’t know. And we’ll never know.

What if Wayland wanted to order, let’s say with a number out my arse purely for demonstration, 1,000 copies. But someone blobbed the order, and typed 3,000?

There, you’re in a quandary. Because if they did over order? You assume there’s no Sale Or Return contract with GW as the seller.

I don’t know and won’t pretend to know what the truth of the matter is, including on the Sale or Return. But I will point out for all the complaints about GW toward 3rd Party Sellers, a lack of Sale or Return isn’t something I recall turning up. Granted, that’s not proof either way.

Ultimately, outside of people with nothing better to do than whine about a company that doesn’t care about them? We’ve nowt beyond simple observation.

I’m happy to admit I’m wrong on these things, if and/or when better and greater information is available. But I’m confident the Droop Group will just flounce away on to the next moan, like nothing ever happened.

We know GW made sufficiently more than they've sold.

We know Wayland bought more than they sold, we know, to the best of my knowledge, this is true of all online retailers.

We know typically launch boxes tend to sell out with GW or cause stock issues.

We know a lot of other kits are out of stock at GW.

What we don't know is whether they wasted production on this vs other kits.

We don't know if GW expected to sell as many as they made.

We don't know numbers for retailers.

This is all very funky and yes, you are right, it is not conclusive evidence of a problem. I would argue its good evidence of it not being a rip roaring success at the least.

I... cut what I was not answering to, and changed styles on all of four words of my own comment to highlight it and show what I was answering?

The rest are just your speculations, which I rather not answer as neither I not you have any actual info about.

I'll say it again: I think we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them, because of their actions. For what reason? I don't know, and I don't care for this specific line of thought, nor do I care for what other stores are doing.

Hope that clears that up.

Again, it all boils down to how many were made, and outside of end customers, who bought or were sold what.

Certainly as a trend, GW seem to have had fewer stock issues in recent months compared to recent history, going back to Indomitus.

As I said at the time, and still maintain, selling out and not having enough for everyone is a nice problem to have, but a Problem all the same.

What we’d need for any kind of accurate comparison are the production and sales numbers for 2nd and 3rd Ed.

But we’re simply never going to have those. Ever. From anyone. Except some Johnny No-Stars off of out of The Internet, who should be considered entirely suspect unless they can name, verify and evidence their source.

And so, our only conclusion? Is that GW have produced More Than Enough.

Why have Wayland offered a deeper discount? Go ask Wayland. You might get a straight answer, you might not. But do brace yourself for the answer not necessarily supporting an existing conclusion, at all.

And again, that answers not to what I was stating. No matter.

But, to your conclusion?

And so, our only conclusion? Is that GW have produced More Than Enough.

...no? Our only conclusion would be that GW sold Wayland More Than Enough, to the point that they're doing a deep discount on the preorders.

Sometimes GW gets their estimations "just right" for a launch period and most people who want a copy get it and there isn't a big nor understock.


Sometimes GW over-estimates and we get overstock

Sometimes GW under-estimates and we get understock.




The latter is often the most troubling for customers and the former for GW. In the end we see all three happening and often as not all three are used to predict and justify that the sky is falling and GW have made the biggest mistake in the world.

Lets not forget this product has a 3 year shelf life at minimum. The actual models in it have a shelf life that can be measured in decades and will generally retain value and could even go up if they are withdrawn from sale in the future.



We also have very little real world understanding of the actual numbers. Unless retailers come forward with hard numbers for us to work with we don't really know how things compare sales wise. Did GW produce VASTLY too many kits; did GW over-supply Wayland; Did Wayland over-order more than normal; is there other stuff going on like GW having a policy that projects which get X finances for their duration get Y amount that must be spent on the starter set

There are a LOT of whatifs and honestly we don't have enough cards in our hands to tell.


Heck it might be the production numbers and prices are 100% on point and what's actually happened is that the market at large is REALLY straining because of the continued problems risen by wars, tariffs and cost of living. So this game could be under-selling but purely because everyone is getting more and more financially drained at large and the big pandemic casual market is burning out because of that.

 Albertorius wrote:
I... cut what I was not answering to, and changed styles on all of four words of my own comment to highlight it and show what I was answering?

The rest are just your speculations, which I rather not answer as neither I not you have any actual info about.

I'll say it again: I think we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them, because of their actions. For what reason? I don't know, and I don't care for this specific line of thought, nor do I care for what other stores are doing.

Hope that clears that up.

We can conclude nothing.

There are many possible reasons why Wayland might’ve increase their discount. I’ve suggested some possibilities, and hopefully made it clear those were by no means the only possibilities.

But we’ve Bad Faith Actors in this very thread desperate to pretend their claim isn’t only The Truth, but The Only Possibility.

Again, I’m perfectly happy to be wrong, should further evidence and information come to light. Will the Droop Group do so? No. They’ll just slink off into the peanut gallery once again. Because their only interest appears to be hating a company which doesn’t even know or care that they exist, any more than said company knows or cares that I exist.

OTOH, for retailers over buying is a very bad thing, as it freezes money on non-moving assets. Which would explain Wayland's move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
I... cut what I was not answering to, and changed styles on all of four words of my own comment to highlight it and show what I was answering?

The rest are just your speculations, which I rather not answer as neither I not you have any actual info about.

I'll say it again: I think we can infer that Wayland Games does feel the release/preorder of the edition is being a dud, for them, because of their actions. For what reason? I don't know, and I don't care for this specific line of thought, nor do I care for what other stores are doing.

Hope that clears that up.

We can conclude nothing.

There are many possible reasons why Wayland might’ve increase their discount. I’ve suggested some possibilities, and hopefully made it clear those were by no means the only possibilities.

But we’ve Bad Faith Actors in this very thread desperate to pretend their claim isn’t only The Truth, but The Only Possibility.

Again, I’m perfectly happy to be wrong, should further evidence and information come to light. Will the Droop Group do so? No. They’ll just slink off into the peanut gallery once again. Because their only interest appears to be hating a company which doesn’t even know or care that they exist, any more than said company knows or cares that I exist.

Alright then, I guess I'm a bad faith actor then, now.

 Overread wrote:
Sometimes GW gets their estimations "just right" for a launch period and most people who want a copy get it and there isn't a big nor understock.


Sometimes GW over-estimates and we get overstock

Sometimes GW under-estimates and we get understock.




The latter is often the most troubling for customers and the former for GW. In the end we see all three happening and often as not all three are used to predict and justify that the sky is falling and GW have made the biggest mistake in the world.

Lets not forget this product has a 3 year shelf life at minimum. The actual models in it have a shelf life that can be measured in decades and will generally retain value and could even go up if they are withdrawn from sale in the future.



We also have very little real world understanding of the actual numbers. Unless retailers come forward with hard numbers for us to work with we don't really know how things compare sales wise. Did GW produce VASTLY too many kits; did GW over-supply Wayland; Did Wayland over-order more than normal; is there other stuff going on like GW having a policy that projects which get X finances for their duration get Y amount that must be spent on the starter set

There are a LOT of whatifs and honestly we don't have enough cards in our hands to tell.


Heck it might be the production numbers and prices are 100% on point and what's actually happened is that the market at large is REALLY straining because of the continued problems risen by wars, tariffs and cost of living. So this game could be under-selling but purely because everyone is getting more and more financially drained at large and the big pandemic casual market is burning out because of that.

Replying to say if I could give a thumbs up, I would.

Hi everyone,
Not posted on DakkaDakka for an age but just wanted to post and give some information. I am the owner of Wayland btw.

GW’s new release policy is a million times better than it used to be and gives us and other retailers time to estimate demand and order new releases.

We use historic data and try and gauge interest in new releases in a number of ways, normally we get it right. Sometimes we don’t. This is one of those times we got it wrong. No matter the discussions about the product, I think we had enough information to get it right, but this time we were over optimistic. Demand of this release is not where we expected it to be. And rather than sit on large amounts of stock, tying space and cash up for a long tail, we wanted to make sure we moved more stock than we had so launched the promotion. One thing we have already done and communicated to customers that had already ordered is that they would be getting store credit or vouchers for the difference if they had ordered at our original price as we don’t want customers feeling they have overpaid.

We have no idea what other retailers have ordered and generally we pay no attention, but I know we ordered a very large amount. So rather than see that cash tied up, we have made a change to make sure it’s moved.

We have to pay for stock before launch either by utilising credit with GW or cash, so one way or another it is tied up for however long it takes to sell through the stock and then realising a profit.

One other point is that GW are shifting to a new manufacturing facility and we I think were too wary of supply issues whilst they did it. So ordered more than we should have to last.

Hope that helps.

Rich

So there is that.

Also, mighty fine of you guys to match the discount for everyone. That's classy.

If we take it at face value. Apologies, but career has made me a suspicious Bar Steward.

But I’ll assume it’s on the level?

Does GW, or does GW not, offer Sale or Return? Either for cash or credit?

Please note I’m not asking to see a copy of any contract, as that’s frankly a wild request for such a trivial matter. But an answer either way would help inform.

Was that a question for me?

Sale or return, no, but we wouldn’t do it anyway. Our issue to resolve, not theirs.