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ChaosDave wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:That is a similar arguement that SW players are trying to use to justify 5+ cover saves for land speader "squads". Again, yeah it says it grants 5+ cover save to all squads and LS come is squads...BUT, vehicles can't make a 5+ cover save period unless it is simultaneously obscured...that is not even broching the RAI crowd that interpret squads to mean units.

I really need to know the language for "spore clouds".

The difference is vehicles form squadrons not squads, so squads getting cover saves does not affect landspeeder squadrons. The Venom save specifies "unit", and everything the tyranids have are "units". At least that my take on the limited info we have so far.

The Space Wolf infantry units come in 'packs', so I guess the cover save doesn't apply to them either. Hello? In GW games, units mean everything and squads are no different. For example in WHFB, if an ability grants effects to 'all units within xx"' it also applies to characters running on their own, monsters, and so on.

Really guys? We have started to discuss the RAW (or possible RAW) of the Venomthropes cover save?

How about we just wait until we can see it in black and white? If it says "units within x" get 5+ cover save then I and my group will treat MC's as getting it as MC's are units, even a single MC is a "unit."

Yeah! Stop discussing new rules about at upcoming Codex!!!! Discussing rules about an upcoming Codex within the thread for discussing the upcoming Codex is just the wrong place to do it.

So stop!!!!!!

Has anyone confirmed whether the Trigon can assault after DSing or not?

Well, if we are going to argue the RAW of rumors perhaps it should be in YMDC. Afterall, that is the rules forum.

We know the rule exists H. Stoking your ego and making jackass comments about me saying we should not discuss RAW about a rule we don't know the exact wording to is frankly, juvenile.

I didn't say we couldn't discuss the rules but discussing the RAW vs RAI actually is OT for this thread. Try again H. Your strawman comments are funny.

Thicker skin Fate, grow some.

Besides, the book isn't out yet, and this thread has been (for the past several pages at least) a discussion on the implications and possible uses for various new and existing Tyranid units. Rules discussions come into that, and for that very reason it's probably best to keep them all in the same spot for now.

Once the book's out I'm sure we can all rush off to our various sub-forums to discuss the details.

My skin is plenty thick. I'm not hurt by your "ego stroking" as it does no good to bitch about it officially so all I can do is vent.

This is a Tyranid rumor thread, not a "SW power has been ruled to do this" thread so the way a power is worded in codex SW has no relevance to the discussion at hand.

Fateweaver wrote:Afterall, that is the rules forum.

Its a rules forum...not a "rumored" rules forum. Big difference. I did bother to bring it up there, though I doubt people on YMDC are going to bother. Also, this seams to me to be a new precidence as I don't know of any other powers or wargear that grant cover to MC.


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Clay Williams wrote:Well there are means to get into CC faster, and I have yet to play a 5th game that makes getting into cover difficult. That is if you are playing by the recomended 25% - 33% .

And if your opponents or reffs aren't use to placing the terrain on the board edges rather than in the center.


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Shep had asked about what would be the most ideal loadouts so I computed ratios for the various upgrades available for genestealers based on toughness 4 victims. Specifically, I wanted to compare points increases to increases in wounding and rending. Just a reference, YMMV.

IT IS EASIER TO READ THE TABLES BY HITTING QUOTE BUTTON AND REVIEWING THEM IN THE POST REPLY DIALOG BOX

What I found was that poisoned attack seams to have the best value (due to rerolling failed wounds) and that adding additional biomorphs had quick diminishing returns that seamed to make the overall raitio lower and thus less effecient. T5+ opponents would increase the efficiencies of the poisoned attack in comparison to the other options, while T3 would lower it in comparison.

Upgrade % of Base # Wounds # Wounds % Ratio # of Rends # of Rends % Ratio
Base Pts Pts Pts Base Upgrade Increase WDSTS Base Upgrade Increase Rendsts
Poisoned 14 1 7% 1.00 1.50 50% 7.00 0.33 0.50 50% 7.00
Poisoned 14 2 14% 1.00 1.50 50% 3.50 0.33 0.50 50% 3.50
Poisoned 14 3 21% 1.00 1.50 50% 2.33 0.33 0.50 50% 2.33


Furious 14 1 7% 1.00 1.33 33% 4.67 0.33 0.33 0% -
Furious 14 2 14% 1.00 1.33 33% 2.33 0.33 0.33 0% -
Furious 14 3 21% 1.00 1.33 33% 1.56 0.33 0.33 0% -


Scytails 14 1 7% 1.00 1.17 17% 2.33 0.33 0.39 17% 2.33
Scytails 14 2 14% 1.00 1.17 17% 1.17 0.33 0.39 17% 1.17
Scytails 14 3 21% 1.00 1.17 17% 0.78 0.33 0.39 17% 0.78

Adding Furious to Poisoned
14 2 14% 1.00 1.78 78% 5.44 0.33 0.50 50% 3.50
14 4 29% 1.00 1.78 78% 2.72 0.33 0.50 50% 1.75
14 6 43% 1.00 1.78 78% 1.81 0.33 0.50 50% 1.17

Adding Scytails to Poisoned
14 2 14% 1.00 1.75 75% 5.25 0.33 0.58 75% 5.25
14 4 29% 1.00 1.75 75% 2.63 0.33 0.58 75% 2.63
14 6 43% 1.00 1.75 75% 1.75 0.33 0.58 75% 1.75

Adding Scytails to Furious Charge and Poisoned
14 3 21% 1.00 2.07 107% 5.01 0.33 0.58 75% 3.50
14 6 43% 1.00 2.07 107% 2.51 0.33 0.58 75% 1.75
14 9 64% 1.00 2.07 107% 1.67 0.33 0.58 75% 1.17



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Also wanted to see the relationship between points increase and loss of wounds which I think will be important given our 5+ armour sv.

Assuming that we would start out with a 12 man squad of unmodified stealers for 168 pts:

Upgrade # of Models # of Models % Loss
Base Pts Pts 168 pts Upgraded of Wds
14 1 12 11.20 -7%
14 2 12 10.50 -13%
14 3 12 9.88 -18%
14 4 12 9.33 -22%
14 5 12 8.84 -26%
14 6 12 8.40 -30%
14 7 12 8.00 -33%
14 8 12 7.64 -36%
14 9 12 7.30 -39%



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Based on these ratios, if poison and furious charge are costed at 2pts and scyths at 1 pt, I think the most value added upgrade when dealing with MEQ will likely be poison (given the ratio for both rending and wounds). Given deminishing returns, I feel that adding anything beyond poison will likely add too little value to the point cost. Just my oppinion.

Now now, fate and h, you gotta play nice or this thread will get locked.

Hollismason, I have heard it both ways but have yet to actually heard it confirmed. The Mawloc, on the other hand, I have heard confirmed that it creates a blast effect of some sort when ds-ing.

Codex hasn't come in today (yet, could be this evening) but it could arrive tomorrow or monday. That's what I got from the store owner by phone. However from a store staff member (while I was there earlier today), he said that I would have to wait till january the 10th...

I guess we are back to waiting for schepp.

And for Wyomingfox, thanks for your math hammering. Got to admit I'm not entirely clear on the numbers, but appreciated anyway.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Thicker skin Fate, grow some.

That's your answer to everything, isn't it? "Shot in he gut? Why don't you grow a pair, sissy?" "Nuclear meltdown? Pah, that's what you get for being a whiner."

Carnifex:
WS 3 BS 3 S 6 T 6 W 4 I 1 A 4 LD 6 Sv 3+
- may be taken in squads of 1-3
- pretty expensive
- need I to mention that they may buy freaking EVERYTING?
- no more profile upgrades


--------------------------------------------------

That is what I read on another forum... is it true that my fex's are going to have nearly HALF the strength that they used to, or is this a typo? I could see them lowering it to 8, or even 7, but 6 just sounds like a typo. With no option to increase it, I don't see how that can be accurate.

No that was a typo. Str of the fex is 9, and it is even confirmed by January White Dwarf.

The new cost of the fex is 32 of the old naked spinegaunts. Conflicting reports as to whether it comes with bioplasma or not. Conflicting reports also as to whether it is I1 or I2 base. I tend to believe he is I 2 base.

Oh thank you saryn, you just made my day. I about freaked out when I saw that typo... thinking: "No way my 'fex is as lame as a lictor." lol.

So is the confirmed range for this bio-plasma 12" or what? I tend to think that this is not a standard option (based purely on the fact that they have a separate head in the sprue for that ability, so they may as well make it not-standard for WYSIWYG purposes) but I am fortunate enough to have modeled my fexes with the appropriate plasma-spitting heads.

wyomingfox wrote:Shep had asked about what would be the most ideal loadouts so I computed ratios for the various upgrades available for genestealers based on toughness 4 victims. Specifically, I wanted to compare points increases to increases in wounding and rending. Just a reference, YMMV.

What I found was that poisoned attack seams to have the best value (due to rerolling failed wounds) and that adding additional biomorphs had quick diminishing returns that seamed to make the overall raitio lower and thus less effecient. T5+ opponents would increase the efficiencies of the poisoned attack in comparison to the other options, while T3 would lower it in comparison.

I do not really follow your table but did some Mathhammer of my own. Talons are a fraction better against T3 opponents but otherwise you get so few misses hitting on 3+ that the cost is not worth the loss of extra models (I compared units of the same cost). I also found Toxic stealers to be the best value for points (assuming all the upgrades cost the same).

saryrn wrote: Conflicting reports also as to whether it is I1 or I2 base. I tend to believe he is I 2 base.

I was thinking about this, and it would make sense if it was I: 2, otherwise crushing claws would not have a negative effect on it, nor would assaulting into cover. Of course, it wouldn't be out of line if it was I: 1, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.

saryrn wrote:No that was a typo. Str of the fex is 9, and it is even confirmed by January White Dwarf.

The new cost of the fex is 32 of the old naked spinegaunts. Conflicting reports as to whether it comes with bioplasma or not. Conflicting reports also as to whether it is I1 or I2 base. I tend to believe he is I 2 base.

No conflict there.
It's S9
It comes without bioplasma (Upgrade for 20 points)
It's I1 (+2 on the charge, possible furious charge via adrenal glands)
Cost is right, though.

Oh, and I'm with my family right now, so no new peeks at the codex from me here. Sorry! Have a jolly christmas nonetheless.

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. FoxPhoenix: you a right, soon enough. Crushing claws have negative effects when you consider the possible boni from FC and charging. CC negate them.
P.P.S. Agree with H.B.M.C though, even I'm not 100% sure how the rules are worded because I don't directly write them down. So It's pretty moot to discuss RAW/RAI at this stage...

Have a great xmas Schepp. Thanks for all you have given us this year.

Schepp himself wrote:
No conflict there.
It's S9
It comes without bioplasma (Upgrade for 20 points)
It's I1 (+2 on the charge, possible furious charge via adrenal glands)
Cost is right, though.

Oh, and I'm with my family right now, so no new peeks at the codex from me here. Sorry! Have a jolly christmas nonetheless.

Greets
Schepp himself

Thanks for all the information on the Codex Schepp, it's been really useful.

Good to see 'Fexes are S9 still- S6 would have been the final nail in the coffin for them

If you attempt to read the bottom paragraph, you will see it mentioning "Trygon Prime"! You can also see the extra parts right next to the big Mawloc!
According to the article, The trygon prime has synapse and boosts the range of the tygon's range attack! I'm sorry if this has been mentioned.


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They're going to delete the image, I just know it. Here's a link!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=6700019a

Klawz wrote:If you attempt to read the bottom paragraph, you will see it mentioning "Trygon Prime"! You can also see the extra parts right next to the big Mawloc!
According to the article, The trygon prime has synapse and boosts the range of the tygon's range attack! I'm sorry if this has been mentioned.


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They're going to delete the image, I just know it. Here's a link!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=6700019a

Nice find, Mr. Eagle Eyes!

And really, can everyone please stay on topic and leave out personal attacks?

I'm at work, on a Saturday no less! I don't want to have to get all grumpy and such.

It is actually quite amazing that this thread has made it out to this many pages and is still delivering the goods.

Lets keep it that way.

From white dwarf battle report, scything talons allow reroll of 1 to hit. (I'm not going through 45 pages to see if that has been already posted)

In that battle report the trygon didn't assault when it deep striked, but did the turn after (looks like it didn't move) so my guess is no assaulting after DS.

They don't mention the carnifex or hive tyrant taking cover saves though they look like they're close to the venomthrope (could've just not come up)

The death leaper didn't assault when it appeared either. It did score a penetrating hit on an ironclad in combat though... and later they say clearly he can't assault since he just appeared.

The only mention of loss of wounds from fearless is the mawloc. But there were many combats where the SM won and they didn't say anything about it. And elsewhere in the book, the state synapse gives fearless, so tar pits still kill themselves.

Oh and they said they playtested it alot, and that "I don't think there is a best army combination..." that makes me laugh. How long before the new Nidzilla list gets spammed?

Legendary creatures mentioned: deathleaper, doom of Malan'tai, Parasite of Mortrex

Deminyn wrote:From white dwarf battle report, scything talons allow reroll of 1 to hit. (I'm not going through 45 pages to see if that has been already posted)

In that battle report the trygon didn't assault when it deep striked, but did the turn after (looks like it didn't move) so my guess is no assaulting after DS.

Yeah, it's already been said- 1 set of Scything Talons allows you to re-roll any 1's to hit, 2 sets allows you to re-roll all misses (not just 1s).

Hey wyoming: Do you take into account that poison allows rerolls to failed wounds if the model's strength is equal to or better than the other model's toughness?

edit: looks like you do.

Also, does the alpha warrior have other psychic powers other than synapse? Oh, and do we still have catalyst?

Lukus83 wrote:And for Wyomingfox, thanks for your math hammering. Got to admit I'm not entirely clear on the numbers, but appreciated anyway.

Yeah, well for one, the table is hard to read unless you click the QUOTE button on my post and open up the post reply dialogue box. If anyone knows code to create tables that would be nice....that doesn't take 2 hours .

But yeah here I will try to explain:

Take the first data row listed as Poison in my table:
The base genestealer cost is 14 points. If the upgrade costed 1 point, then the cost would be 7% of the base cost or a 7% increase. A base genestealer on the charge attacking a T4 enemy will cause 1 wound. With Poison, he will cause 1.5 wounds or a 50% increase in effectiveness. Taking the ratio of increased wounds to increased cost yields a value of 7 (this value is just to compare the effectiveness of the differnet biomorph combinations at differnet costs). Moving on, a base genestealer will cause .33 rends, whereas a genestealer with poison will cause .50 wounds or a 50% increase. Taking the ratio of increased rends to increased cost again yields a value of 7.

Now look at the 4rth data row, labeled Scythtals:
Again base genestealer is 14 points. If the upgrade costed 1 point, then the cost would be a 7% increase. A base genestealer on the charge attacking a T4 enemy will cause 1 wound. With Scythtals, he will cause 1.17 wounds or a 17% increase. Taking the ratio of increased wounds to increased cost yields a value of 2.3 (nearly a third of the value of poison which was 7). Moving on, a base genestealer will cause .33 rends, whereas a genestealer with Scythtals will cause .39 wounds or a 17% increase. Taking the ratio of increased rends to increased cost again yields a value of 2.3 (again, only a third of the value of poison).

So assuming both biomorphs costs 1 point each, Poison/Venom would be a far superior choice over Scythals against T4+ opponents

Now look at the 13th data row, which is computing the value of adding both Scythtals and Poison:
Base genestealer is 14 points. If the upgrades together costed 2 points total, then the cost would be a 14% increase. A base genestealer will cause 1 wound. With Scythtals and Poison, he will cause 1.75 wounds or a 75% increase. Taking the ratio of increased wounds to increased cost yields a value of 5.25 (a third less than the value of poison alone). Moving on, a base genestealer will cause .33 rends, whereas a genestealer with Scythtals and poison will cause .58 wounds or a 75% increase. Taking the ratio of increased rends to increased cost again yields a value of 5.25.

In this scenario, adding additional biomorphs to venom/poison reaps diminishing returns on your investment and as such is a less valuable option.


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When looking at T3 opponents, venom still looks to be the slightly better value if all upgrades are costed equal.

Saw the new Trygon at a store yesterday, damn but those things look awesome.

Thank god no Mawloc, however.

Saw the Mawloc today at my FLGS, looks spanking good, if a bit short. Model does fill the base nicely. Also saw a Trygon at another store, but that one looked like gak.

Surprise surprise, the Nids lose in their bat rep to show their worth. Losing to Salamanders assisted by Legion of the Damned.

Battlefoam: Trygon Carriers

I'm sure we'll all be wanting them to make these.

BrookM wrote:Saw the Mawloc today at my FLGS, looks spanking good, if a bit short. Model does fill the base nicely. Also saw a Trygon at another store, but that one looked like gak.

Surprise surprise, the Nids lose in their bat rep to show their worth. Losing to Salamanders assisted by Legion of the Damned.

The New Thing does seem to be to lose in your inaugural battle report.

Of course, the Skaven had an 'excuse' when they did lose.

And I find the 'we playtested it a lot' comment to be... amusing...

That blows that Deathleaper cannot assault at appearing welp.