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I didn't get the impression that 8th is coming soon though. Sounded like it would be closer to next year than this summer.

I wonder if deathguard will keep their formation or if they get a new one. TSons got a quite a lot of formations. I imagine DG will get the same, but they only have one in their current decurion. Would make sense to give them a new decurion to accomodate the new formations.

I would hold off on any snap judgements on any purchases until we have solid info. What we know about assaulting makes it sounds better, but how much better is unknown. Assaulting is already strong for assault armies, the problem has always been getting to assault not landing attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:
I wonder if deathguard will keep their formation or if they get a new one. TSons got a quite a lot of formations. I imagine DG will get the same, but they only have one in their current decurion. Would make sense to give them a new decurion to accomodate the new formations.

I imagine they will get the Thousand Son treatment with special formations and bonuses.

If people are worried about Heldrake reserve manipukation, the DFTS Air Superioriity Detachment is vastly superior to the Heldrake Terror Squad.

Rerolls on Reserves, and a +2 when you have Air Superiority means youre coming in on a 2+ with a reroll.

I recently purchased Traitor Legions, and I was thinking about if you could make a deathstar with a squad of 20 KDK hounds and an Ahriman's Exiles formation with everybody on Discs (instead of the usual Cyclopia Cabal). You would have to take a Herald in the formation instead of a Lord to avoid mixing Marks, but RAW it should be doable. My question is if it is worth it as it is a large point investment. Manifesting powers on 3s seems pretty solid, but Exalted Sorcerers are expensive if kitted out and Ahriman is way expensive.

Hm sounds really expansive pointswise.

You also are forced to roll on the tzeentchtable and the Houndstar with the Cyclopia Cabal is the same but better imo.

Other question, if you want to play a 1500 point list with 2 landraiders, which legion is best suited for this and provides the most? Also which units would you transport in them and how should the rest of the list look like?

Thought about a warband from Traitors hate with 2x3 Terminators with Landraiders, 2x5 naked CSM, 1x5 Havocs with 2 Plasma and a Rhino, 3x5 Raptors with 2 Meltas each a Chaoslord with double Claws and a single Spawn for the Aux.

Anyone some Ideas?^^

Iron warriors would probably offer the most buffs to that specific list. Consider taking sorcerers instead of lords though and roll on the new mech psychic powers, a lot of them give good buffs to your raiders.

Thank you =). Hm only problem is i have to take a lord in the warband or should i take a CAD?

Anybody want to hazard a guess how/if the new DG units will improve Black Legion ?
I would presume they won't be building the initiative penalty into these units meaning BL get them at I 4.
I also imagine they'd come with fnp/fearless built in like the current plague marines so nothing lost on that front.
I could also see zombie cultists getting their own entry thus not requiring typhus anymore. Or if they're not zombies I'm guessing they can't be far off, the cultists in the background of what was leaked looks almost like a plaguebearer.

And if we do get an exalted sorcerer equivalent (personally I'm leaning towards not, but I could see it happen) then spineshard(+1I, Ap3 daemonweapon) could be interesting as well as the kull of ker'ngar.
Would probably make for a relatively choppy very tough to kill lord. Although In this scenario I could equally see them be limited to a palanquin like the the exalted sorc is stuck with a disc.
Kinda meh in that case, although we might yet see new vehicles so who knows. Whatever this could end up being, if anything at all, could at least take a vehicle. So Claws are still a go.

At the very least it would make BL a bit more intersting.
This will give BL access to all 4 cult units, scarab termies, tzaangors (meh), exalted sorcs, zombie(?) cultists, plague termies and possibly an exalted sorc equivalent in addition to all the stuff everybody else gets.
And mystery vehicles that everybody else also gets because they wont have VotLW lol. Really curious about those tanks.

Which legion do you all think would make the best CAD for a CSM airforce? I'm thinking of bringing 2-3 helblades and a fire raptor to support my renegades and Heretics. (also tempted to try to squeeze a dreadclaw in there but that might be spreading points a little thin

SirSweetroll wrote:
Which legion do you all think would make the best CAD for a CSM airforce? I'm thinking of bringing 2-3 helblades and a fire raptor to support my renegades and Heretics. (also tempted to try to squeeze a dreadclaw in there but that might be spreading points a little thin

None, as all the benefits apply to infantry type models only or require a decurion. So you're going to go with whatever legion works best as an allied detachment.
Black Legion makes a decent allied detachments as you can take a termicide unit plus HQ of your choice. The termies need the least amount of support to work.
Alpha legion would also work pretty well for to infiltrate chosen or what have you. Maybe even cypher, since you probably already have a warlord.
Word bearers might work if you have a few bodies to sacrifice.

SirSweetroll wrote:
Which legion do you all think would make the best CAD for a CSM airforce? I'm thinking of bringing 2-3 helblades and a fire raptor to support my renegades and Heretics. (also tempted to try to squeeze a dreadclaw in there but that might be spreading points a little thin

This would be an Allied Detachment, right? So I guess it largely comes down to the ObSec and HQ options.

BL and AL both bring Chosen. BL leader can bring a very expensive one shot Haywire Ignore Cover Large Blast. AL get to Infiltrate but leave their HQ behind. Both can bring the Dreadclaw without filling a force org slot.

IW bring TH FNP Obliterators. Brilliant! Mediocre synergy with a Burning Brand, probably better to take a cheap Sorcerer. Or a character with Deep Strike can join them and cause backfield trouble.

NL bring Raptors. They can have a Jump Lord with a 2+ save to tank small arms fire. Really good fluff & aesthetic synergy with an Air Force.

WB can keep things cheap with a Sorcerer and Cultist unit that will summon 2-3 Daemon units before his head explodes. With a Palanquin he's pricier but unlikely to go pop. Alternatively, you could drop Possessed out of that Dreadclaw with a Juggerlord. I know they're expensive, but Fleet gives them extra reach, which means their arrival can be a bit more cautious.

WE can take Talisman. Again, Juggerlord can do interesting things. Dreadclaw won't take a force org slot because you'd better take CSM over zerks.

TS give you a Rubric squad and a Sorcerer. Brilliant! Astral Grimoire will let you turn a deathstar of Plague Ogryns into Jump Infantry. Double brilliant!

DG give you Plague Marines. Brilliant! Decent synergy with Burning Brand on their HQ.

EC give you Noise Marines. Not bad. They've got some decent short-medium ranged Artefacts and psychic powers.

Juggerlords can't embark on transports, they're no longer infantry but cavalry.

 Roknar wrote:
I didn't get the impression that 8th is coming soon though. Sounded like it would be closer to next year than this summer.

I wonder if deathguard will keep their formation or if they get a new one. TSons got a quite a lot of formations. I imagine DG will get the same, but they only have one in their current decurion. Would make sense to give them a new decurion to accomodate the new formations.

It's possible they'd get new formations and a new decurion, but there's also the fact that if you compare the Wrath of Magnus book to traitor legions there weren't any additional detachments, relics, or formations from one to the other.

They couldn't copy paste everything from legions and simply add the new units....could they? I mean even for GW that would be pretty non sensical. They would have to give us new units (at the very least mortarion) with no way of fielding them outside of a CAD.
So at the very least I expect new formations, but after that I'm really not sure what to expect? There is going to be rampant copy pasting since that is the GW way of doing things, but I wonder how far they'll go. It sucks for Black Legion to have a formation that is only stand alone and I have half a fear that they will one up that fail by adding new formations and units and copying the rest without incorporating the new formations.

It'd be pretty easy to incorporate new units by having something like "Deathbringers: up to four models may be armed with Rotcannons or Blightlobbers. This unit may replace Havocs in Death Guard Formations." Not far off from the rules insert in Blue Horrors boxes. (Though that falls somewhat short by not explicitly overwriting the BH rule in print copies of C:CD.)

Having not read through the entirety of this thread, I have a couple questions:

If I was just starting to play Chaos Marines (probably Black Legion, as black is by far my favorite color to paint) would you recommend the Traitor Legions books for the formations and the benefits they confer?

How does CSM in their current form compare in terms of competitive potential to Loyalist Marines?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Having not read through the entirety of this thread, I have a couple questions:

If I was just starting to play Chaos Marines (probably Black Legion, as black is by far my favorite color to paint) would you recommend the Traitor Legions books for the formations and the benefits they confer?

How does CSM in their current form compare in terms of competitive potential to Loyalist Marines?

No, i wouldn't recommend it. I'd say it's all but mandatory lol. In the case of Black Legion, forget their supplement.
There are no rules in there that aren't also in the Legions book. You could get it for the fluff if you want to, but there is no reason to get it for the rules.

Competitively, they're still not on loyalist levels but with Legions, they *all* get reasonably close. Some Legions more than others though.
Mix them with daemons and renegade knights and you have some lists that are up there. Not sure that can count as CSM though.

Yes, this is essentially the new Chaos Codex, I would not suggest playing chaos marines without it. You just lose so much playing vanilla chaos.

 Badablack wrote:
Yes, this is essentially the new Chaos Codex, I would not suggest playing chaos marines without it. You just lose so much playing vanilla chaos.

Oh yeah, I'm well aware of how bad the vanilla CSM codex is. It was bad even during 6th edition.

How does Khorne Daemonkin fit into this? I've been out of the hobby for a while, so I'm not sure if the rules in one book supersede the other like for the Black Legion supplement. It must be better if you aren't playing Khorne, but does Khorne Daemonkin hold any sort of advantages over the Traitor Legions books?

Daemonkin is basically Codex: Gorepack (and Brazen Onslought if you're stupid crazy about Termicide like I am).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Daemonkin is basically Codex: Gorepack (and Brazen Onslought if you're stupid crazy about Termicide like I am).

I see. Hey, I hear Eldar are now basically Codex: Aspect Host as far as tournaments go now (though that was pretty inevitable given how good that formation is). Add in the Yncarne and DE infantry with Harlequin psykers and go to town, all while steeling Khorne Daemonkin's old gimmick except better because space elves.

Wouldn't Termicide be better with a Black Legion Terminator Annihilation Force in a Black Legion Speartip Detachment? Grab a Mark of Tzeentch termi sorceror and throw mark of Tzeentch on the termis and they might actually live long enough to nominate a second target. And if you Deep-Strike turn one, you are almost guaranteed the charge turn two.

Is it possible to build a all Death Guard army and compete on a competitive level? Or do you have to bring renegades and daemons to stand a chance?

 Roknar wrote:
They couldn't copy paste everything from legions and simply add the new units....could they? I mean even for GW that would be pretty non sensical. They would have to give us new units (at the very least mortarion) with no way of fielding them outside of a CAD.

They released a ghazzy detachment that was 95% same to the previous ghazzy detachment but with an underwhelming decurion and without greentide.

 Roknar wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Having not read through the entirety of this thread, I have a couple questions:

If I was just starting to play Chaos Marines (probably Black Legion, as black is by far my favorite color to paint) would you recommend the Traitor Legions books for the formations and the benefits they confer?

How does CSM in their current form compare in terms of competitive potential to Loyalist Marines?

No, i wouldn't recommend it. I'd say it's all but mandatory lol. In the case of Black Legion, forget their supplement.
There are no rules in there that aren't also in the Legions book. You could get it for the fluff if you want to, but there is no reason to get it for the rules.

Competitively, they're still not on loyalist levels but with Legions, they *all* get reasonably close. Some Legions more than others though.
Mix them with daemons and renegade knights and you have some lists that are up there. Not sure that can count as CSM though.

Take the Black Legion detachment, a cheap Daemonic Herald and 2 minimum squads of Daemons.

Your 'Main' detachment will be the Daemons so that you get the Daemonic Storms. Your secondary detachment will be a horde of unmarked CSM who are immune to the Daemonic Storms, because they have no marks.

Hilarious. Also a good reason to take Lorgar and his brood.

 koooaei wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
They couldn't copy paste everything from legions and simply add the new units....could they? I mean even for GW that would be pretty non sensical. They would have to give us new units (at the very least mortarion) with no way of fielding them outside of a CAD.

They released a ghazzy detachment that was 95% same to the previous ghazzy detachment but with an underwhelming decurion and without greentide.

Yea but they didn't get new units did they? At the very least we are getting mortarion though it's pretty safe to assume we are also getting a new unit of cultists and terminators.
Those wouldn't have any existing formations to go in except for the plague marines. We would probably get new formations for those units, but I'm wondering how far they'll take that.
Giving us new new units without anything else would be at least as lame as the gahzkull supplement update, perhaps more so even.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Daemonkin is basically Codex: Gorepack (and Brazen Onslought if you're stupid crazy about Termicide like I am).

I see. Hey, I hear Eldar are now basically Codex: Aspect Host as far as tournaments go now (though that was pretty inevitable given how good that formation is). Add in the Yncarne and DE infantry with Harlequin psykers and go to town, all while steeling Khorne Daemonkin's old gimmick except better because space elves.

Wouldn't Termicide be better with a Black Legion Terminator Annihilation Force in a Black Legion Speartip Detachment? Grab a Mark of Tzeentch termi sorceror and throw mark of Tzeentch on the termis and they might actually live long enough to nominate a second target. And if you Deep-Strike turn one, you are almost guaranteed the charge turn two.

Termicide is basically better elsewhere but the Brazen ones gain Rampage which is pretty nice when you're keeping the numbers low.

Only issue is the tax of the formation.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Daemonkin is basically Codex: Gorepack (and Brazen Onslought if you're stupid crazy about Termicide like I am).

I see. Hey, I hear Eldar are now basically Codex: Aspect Host as far as tournaments go now (though that was pretty inevitable given how good that formation is). Add in the Yncarne and DE infantry with Harlequin psykers and go to town, all while steeling Khorne Daemonkin's old gimmick except better because space elves.

Wouldn't Termicide be better with a Black Legion Terminator Annihilation Force in a Black Legion Speartip Detachment? Grab a Mark of Tzeentch termi sorceror and throw mark of Tzeentch on the termis and they might actually live long enough to nominate a second target. And if you Deep-Strike turn one, you are almost guaranteed the charge turn two.

Better is a relative term here. Assuming you make your reserve rolls and don't mishap/scatter too badly, coming in on T1 can be very nice. That being THE first turn, not your T1 though.
That way your opponent doesn't get a chance to put up invisibility and stuff. Hatred does nothing because you already have hatred.
Take away "true" T1 and it's not really a whole lot better than any other TAF. Having crusader is cute but is only a little bit better than fear since it doesn't apply in CC due to termies not being able to sweep.

So considering there isn't really a better option than the brand for shooting, which everybody gets, it might be better, but really not by much.
Plus it competes with a raptor talon which is really good with Black Legion.

Anyone tried a WE CAD rather than a Maelstrom? I've got the urge to stick 20 CSM and a khorne lord in a Spartan. Would maybe run a dreadclaw with chosen, a twin claw decimator and a mayhem pack as well for laughs.

Not sure what to fill up the rest with though. Cheap cultists for backfield objectives?

 Roknar wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
They couldn't copy paste everything from legions and simply add the new units....could they? I mean even for GW that would be pretty non sensical. They would have to give us new units (at the very least mortarion) with no way of fielding them outside of a CAD.

They released a ghazzy detachment that was 95% same to the previous ghazzy detachment but with an underwhelming decurion and without greentide.

Yea but they didn't get new units did they? At the very least we are getting mortarion though it's pretty safe to assume we are also getting a new unit of cultists and terminators.
Those wouldn't have any existing formations to go in except for the plague marines. We would probably get new formations for those units, but I'm wondering how far they'll take that.
Giving us new new units without anything else would be at least as lame as the gahzkull supplement update, perhaps more so even.

They may come up with a new formation which is more designed to sell the new stuff ( but most likely the new units will have rules saying they can be substituted with other stuff in formations like being able to put the new terminators into a Warband or annilation formation etc . Whilst we are getting new units GW already released death guard legion rules so I doubt they will completely change if anything everything new will slot into the Vectorium pretty easy without troubles. Mortarion will become a command choice in the Vectorium and maybe get a Nurgle version of the Raheti war sect formation if we are lucky

With the legion book there's already rules for death guard Terminators, and zombie cultists have always been a thing. Other than mortarion and some new nurgle unit, there's really not much to put in a new nurgle book other than alternate weapon loadouts.