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I doubt they would allow us to switch terminators. They had a chance to do that with scarab occult and they botched that. I mean I would loooove if they allowed us to switch termies like that but I'm not seeing it. Black Legion would be very happy, imagine "deathshroud" bringers of despair hue hue hue.

Loopstah wrote:
Anyone tried a WE CAD rather than a Maelstrom? I've got the urge to stick 20 CSM and a khorne lord in a Spartan. Would maybe run a dreadclaw with chosen, a twin claw decimator and a mayhem pack as well for laughs.

Not sure what to fill up the rest with though. Cheap cultists for backfield objectives?

I think you'd have a few giggles but you're relying heavily on vehicles that may disappoint you in the end. You also won't have much on the field to take fire off your Spartan.

Yea that's a problem in general. You can make possessed into a great unit through the favoured or the tormented, but it costs you so many points in support that while the unit works, the rest of the army is in shambles. And if you loose any of those things like a spartan it all falls apart.

I tried 20 zerkers+kharn in a spartan with auloth before legions though it wasn't a 1850 game. We played auloth as per RAW so I had furious charge and fnp. They performed rather admirably, but I still lost the game horribly cuz I had little else and couldn't cap objectives worth a damn due to not having enough units. It was a fun game but it was a horrible army lol. Worth trying though, might work better in a large game. It looks great on the table top and hordes of marines are surprisingly fun lol.

 killerpenguin wrote:
Is it possible to build a all Death Guard army and compete on a competitive level? Or do you have to bring renegades and daemons to stand a chance?

My friend likes them. He beat up on a Tyranid Monster mash list with tons of Flyrants and the like. He essentially killed two Mawlocs (well they killed themselves actually) and one Flyer the whole game, but he won.

So yeah. its not a "pretty" way to win but deathGuard can get it done.

Deathguard are probably in the top 3 most powerful legion buffs. FNP for everybody, relentless, fearless, etc. They make otherwise weak units like Terminators, possessed, and mutilators much tougher and actually viable competitively.
Their decurion buffs work for everyone too, so you can reroll fnps on zombies. And while expensive a maxed out plague colony is ridiculously tough to budge with cc.

Has anybody tried a mostly Black Legion warband army? With the speartip you have re-rolls galore. Hatred, which gets even better vs IoM, effectively preferred enemy, and crusader armywide. Even in the psychic phase you kinda sorta have re-rolls if you go full pyromancy with yuranthos considering you only have a 30 % chance of NOT getting the first power. And you have access to exalted sorcerers. Re-rolls on charge distances too if you take the icon of wrath on anything, saves even if you luck out on sinistrum.

More access to plasma too since you can skip normal csm, which then also works towards CC with their extra attacks. Could be fun.

 Roknar wrote:
Has anybody tried a mostly Black Legion warband army? With the speartip you have re-rolls galore. Hatred, which gets even better vs IoM, effectively preferred enemy, and crusader armywide. Even in the psychic phase you kinda sorta have re-rolls if you go full pyromancy with yuranthos considering you only have a 30 % chance of NOT getting the first power. And you have access to exalted sorcerers. Re-rolls on charge distances too if you take the icon of wrath on anything, saves even if you luck out on sinistrum.

More access to plasma too since you can skip normal csm, which then also works towards CC with their extra attacks. Could be fun.

My army SCREAMS to be able to use the Warband but the Warband taxes me too much to keep the list together. Its a bummer. I love what Black legion lets my Night Lords do. Super cool. Just...not enough points for me to pull it all off.

Use the hounds formation instead of the warband. You're basically just paying for another lord, 5 zerkers and 5 marines. Free khorne marks too.

I imagine that's what most people playing BL are doing. Hence the question. To make the warband work you would really need as many units in a warband as you can squeeze in. Haven't dared yet myself, but I have to say I'm tempted to try it.

I think we need to talk about things that can be done with Terminators (and Annihilation Forces), Cults of Destruction, and Haemotrope Reactors.

For the uninitiated, they upgrade nearby Plasma Guns (and Pistols) to Blast, and Plasma Cannons to Large Blast. They also increase Gets Hot to happen on a 1-2, but if you're twin-linked then you can still re-roll. You can get 2-4 of them in a single Fortification slot and they are priced just above a Rhino.

We have access to TL Plasma Guns that can double-tap with an Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon. This looks like some serious firepower waiting to happen.

Well Obliterators getting Large Blast Plasma Cannons ain't too shabby. Every other turn you're using expensive Lascannons though.

Main question how far up would you be willing to deploy?

If you're taking CADbliterators then they're switching between Plasma Cannon and Plasma Guns each turn. If you're going CoD, then they can do both in the same turn, then next turn use AC & Las/MM. I think we'll usually want to deploy the Haemotrope right up front and then walk in front of it, so we can benefit from TL Plasguns.

CoD might not even be necessary. This is going to see some serious overkill.

 lindsay40k wrote:
If you're taking CADbliterators then they're switching between Plasma Cannon and Plasma Guns each turn. If you're going CoD, then they can do both in the same turn, then next turn use AC & Las/MM. I think we'll usually want to deploy the Haemotrope right up front and then walk in front of it, so we can benefit from TL Plasguns.

CoD might not even be necessary. This is going to see some serious overkill.

At the same time, isn't it sorta necessary?

Obliterators are super expensive. Let's face it. Without being able to double fire they might not make their points back. The Warpsmiths become less of a tax because you're going to attach them to the units anyway, and with how close you'll want the Obliterators, Warpsmiths can surprisingly help against being tarpitted (because 5 extra attacks from a single model is still pretty awesome).

Already got a Plasma Pistol on my WS, with BS5 and a 2+ I can live with double Gets Hot. I suppose with the latter, it will help to get extra shots out - on average, a Plasma Cannon volley is only going to have two big blasts and one overheat, meaning enough cover saves to justify giving them a few more blasts. WS also adds a bit of OW, which is nice.

There's an argument for a Havoc or Chosen Plasma squad in a Rhino that can deploy between the two Haemotropes and then bolster whichever one takes the brunt of the enemy's approach.

Perhaps for a Plasma Helbrute to stand by Oblits as well. Warpsmith can repair its self-inflicted HP from Overheats.

I tried running the new BL annihilation force. They are a waste of points unless paired with something. They don't come in reliably, they die quickly to cc units and can't reply back strong enough.

Give them anything except for mark of slaanesh, comb plasmas + combo melts and pair them with sorcerers to deny enemy shenanigans. Or even better mess them in with a cabal. They have their uses with melt drops and plasma drops. They are good for ganging deathstars.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Already got a Plasma Pistol on my WS, with BS5 and a 2+ I can live with double Gets Hot. I suppose with the latter, it will help to get extra shots out - on average, a Plasma Cannon volley is only going to have two big blasts and one overheat, meaning enough cover saves to justify giving them a few more blasts. WS also adds a bit of OW, which is nice.

There's an argument for a Havoc or Chosen Plasma squad in a Rhino that can deploy between the two Haemotropes and then bolster whichever one takes the brunt of the enemy's approach.

Perhaps for a Plasma Helbrute to stand by Oblits as well. Warpsmith can repair its self-inflicted HP from Overheats.

The Warpsmith won't add anything to Overwatch unless it is a separate unit. Can't do anything with SaP.

 lindsay40k wrote:
I think we need to talk about things that can be done with Terminators (and Annihilation Forces), Cults of Destruction, and Haemotrope Reactors.

For the uninitiated, they upgrade nearby Plasma Guns (and Pistols) to Blast, and Plasma Cannons to Large Blast. They also increase Gets Hot to happen on a 1-2, but if you're twin-linked then you can still re-roll. You can get 2-4 of them in a single Fortification slot and they are priced just above a Rhino.

We have access to TL Plasma Guns that can double-tap with an Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon. This looks like some serious firepower waiting to happen.

Well the TAF is pretty much out. You'd have to deepstrike withing two inches of a worldwrithed reactor, so yea, not happening.
Range in general would be a problem without worldwrithe, so you pretty much need to take obliterators for the cannons. So basically, for decurions, you need a cult of destruction either way since there isn't any other way to take him in a decurion.
This really screams Iron Warriors. They're better no matter where you take them and their decurion even has a slot for the reactors. Nevermind the chance to get their obliterator warlord trait.

Could be worth taking the cult even in a CAD for the trait. You'd be throwing out small and large blasts every turn. Might even be an idea to get containter cache.
Re-rolls for all those blasts as well as their get's hot rolls. They'd also all get the option of torrent (heavy) flamers. Plus the chance to make the plasma guns S8 and the torrent flamers S6 or 5 with re-roll to wound.

Problem I see is that this a 500ish points 8 wound unit with a MASSIVE target on their back.

I was wondering about possibly running a Terminator squad in a World Eaters Chaos Warband as the mandatory elites choice. Kit them out for CC and don't deep strike them, but rather run them up the board using the 2D6" move to get them closer to the enemy. If they flub that roll, they should then grab some cover and perhaps get the charge next turn. Maybe they could even have a terminator captain with the talisman to make them even faster. I know termies aren't great right now, but at the least a group of them would make a decent distraction carnifex, at least until someone points a couple of gravcannons their way. Otherwise I'm not sure what to run in that slot. Possessed are not great either and Chosen would be better as a shooty unit. Could this be an okay use for termies?

I have been thinking about world eaters as well. Their rules seem to make them really fluffy and who doesn't like an in your face army that wrecks in close combat. But one of the biggest issue I have with it is how dependent they are on getting that turn one charge off.

If they fail to charge the opponent in turn one, whether by clever opponent positioning, or a failed charge. They will be very close to opponent at the end of turn one, open to massed ranged fire and being charged first. (because why wait to be charged by world eaters if you know you negate their furious charge and reduce their attacks by one when you charge them first.)

Also, given that rolling off for first turn is essentially a 50:50 thing. That means that 50% of the time, you won't get off that first turn charge because you will go second. A world eaters army constructed to take advantage of a turn one charge is not built to withstand shooting.

Have been racking my head thinking about this because I can't really depend on getting to go first every single time. I have only two solutions.

One is to construct the army to include units that will attract shooting and yet, can take a decent amount of shooting (I say decent because I don’t think you can have a world eaters army that can withstand the kind of massed shooting that some really shooty armies can bring to the table). This means either having spawn or bikes. Because spawn have the toughness and the wounds to take the shooting while bikes can jink to at least give a 4+ save against AP 3 or lower shooting. And both are fast enough to still fit into a world eaters army. Unfortunately, the one thing I am not sure will work is to have 20 CSM in one big squad with a chaos lord. CSM are still just power armor and lots of ranged shooting would love to shoot at a mass blob of CSM. And while they hit hard, they do cost 15 points per model at least. So, no matter what, It would generally be worth pouring shooting into such a unit.

So, one way is to tone down on the number of CSM in the army in favour of bikes and spawn and rely on the lords to do the killing. It can still get overwhelmed by shooting but at least it would probably stand up better to big infantry blobs of WE CSM.

The other way is to go cultists. Invite them to shoot at a mass blob of cultists which only cost 6 points a model. This means adding a very specific formation. But the good thing about that formation is that the cultists come back on a 4+ The killy components of a WE list are mainly its lords anyway. The chaos lords can hop from one depleted cultist unit to another full strength one until they get a chance to charge into combat and do their thing.

I actually think having flying khorne daemon princes is very important despite their high point cost. Firstly, because if you get to go first, then start them on the board and try for the first turn charge with them. If you go second, then stat them in reserve and fly in. They will serve well in both cases, be it as a beatstick or as flying fire magnets.

Perhaps the trick to going second is to accept that you will be facing shooting and start in cover and use your WE rules to move from cover to cover instead of getting that immediate charge off (because it is not happening if you go second). Cultists in cover still get a cover save no matter what is being fired at them (unless it ignores cover). And at least if you suffer casualties on cultists who can come back in entire units on a 4+, its not as painful as losing 15 points CSM models or even more expensive models to shooting.
I think if you are going for spawn and bikes mostly, you might as well go KDK because hounds are probably even more efficient point wise and KDK gets its own rules to bring back units from blood tithe.

Unfortunately, I am just not convinced if a heavy CSM force can stand up to the kind of shooting that many ranged armies can bring to bear these days. So, after racking my brains over this issue. The best I can think of is to have the cultist formation added in and go heavy of characters and daemon princes. Go light on the chaos warband (bare minimum to satisfy the requirements and to fight for objectives).

So, if you go first as WE, line up your princes and your characters to try and get off that first turn charge and roll up the opponents army. If you go second, its about trying to go for objectives while forcing your opponent to waste shots shooting at either hard to hit flying princes or cheap cultists. If you can eventually get into CC, great, but you have to survive the shooting first.

The only other possible tactic I thought of is to put a dimensional key on a fast khorne lord, put it into a max unit of bikes with another reserve unit of bikes directly behind. And then add on a raptor talon formation. So, if you go first, get that first turn charge off, and then second turn onwards, when your raptor talon deep strikes in, you can position it exactly how you want and then charge it straight into combat.
If you go second. The big bike squad tanks the shooting (and you hope your lord doesn’t die). You then hop it into the reserve squad directly behind and charge it into combat straight after as well. Rinse and repeat.

So, what are your thoughts on this?

Multiple losable units is definitely a necessity with an army that employs gambits like a first turn charge. You don't want to rely on that one unit performing well. I think there might be an argument for a few small-ish Possessed units; like Spawn, they get to re-roll each of their charge dice, significantly increasing the likely result of trying again with a 5-2 or 6-1 split, and if you get second turn they're a very tempting target you can present to draw fire away from other units. Unlike Spawn, they aren't going to suddenly make eight attacks each and break a unit when you only wanted them to hold it in place as a LOS-blocker.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Multiple losable units is definitely a necessity with an army that employs gambits like a first turn charge. You don't want to rely on that one unit performing well. I think there might be an argument for a few small-ish Possessed units; like Spawn, they get to re-roll each of their charge dice, significantly increasing the likely result of trying again with a 5-2 or 6-1 split, and if you get second turn they're a very tempting target you can present to draw fire away from other units. Unlike Spawn, they aren't going to suddenly make eight attacks each and break a unit when you only wanted them to hold it in place as a LOS-blocker.

I was already thinking of Possessed. They aren't that good alone, but three units and a Prince in the Favored of Chaos formation could be spicy. Take the Berserker Glaive on the Prince and go nuts!

So had a game the other day using my chaos against a mate using Magnus...

I literally gave up after turn two it was that ridiculous was:
fateweaver, Magnus some horrors, tsons, tsons termies, 3 hbs

Seemed like Magnus was one of those i'm just gonna kill all your stuff and never get scratched units.

Maybe i was just unlucky but he seems OP? nothing about him appears to be much of a weakness... was zero fun to play against.

 Latro_ wrote:
So had a game the other day using my chaos against a mate using Magnus...

I literally gave up after turn two it was that ridiculous was:
fateweaver, Magnus some horrors, tsons, tsons termies, 3 hbs

Seemed like Magnus was one of those i'm just gonna kill all your stuff and never get scratched units.

Maybe i was just unlucky but he seems OP? nothing about him appears to be much of a weakness... was zero fun to play against.

Magnus is a model that has to have support to pull his weight. Kill that and he won't be worth his points. I just played in a tournament with him and for two of the games he didn't get to do a single thing. One of the games I was seized upon and he got killed with a single turn of shooting so he can definitely be scratched. The other game, being more wary of an alpha strike, I kept him in reserves since I had a comms relay and he never made it onto the table (we didn't get to play out the full game because of time constraints on the round).

Those were extreme examples where he did absolutely nothing, but even if he does start on the table and take off, he won't be worth his cost if he doesn't get warp charges from a lot of other psykers. Focus on killing those instead of skyfiring into him once he has blessings and such going.

The Psykic Phase is pretty nuts right now. I honestly hope they hit it with a nerf bat in 8th and give Khorne some of the AoS "unmaking" gak so you can strip boons and stuff. I really feel like Ada Will is useless when you get 3-4 die to use on it and the other army gets 20. OR give a warp die for every unit with Ada Will. Suddenly Khorne armies can negate powers like they should be able to.

 Latro_ wrote:
So had a game the other day using my chaos against a mate using Magnus...

I literally gave up after turn two it was that ridiculous was:
fateweaver, Magnus some horrors, tsons, tsons termies, 3 hbs

Seemed like Magnus was one of those i'm just gonna kill all your stuff and never get scratched units.

Maybe i was just unlucky but he seems OP? nothing about him appears to be much of a weakness... was zero fun to play against.

Sorry to here that man...

What were you running? I mean fatey and Magnus in the same list is a little gross... The best way to go about it is to kill everyone besides Magnus. He is going to kill you, the good players know that and kill what Magnus cant protect.

well i did mess up in so much i took a fellblade that magnus 2hp'ed turn one (after seizing) and then took 10hps off turn 2! - kaboom

but there was the feeling i was boned even with that tank!

Baneblades and their variants in general are pretty weak right now.

Does anyone know any good support units to run with an Alpha Legion infiltrating infantry build?

My army is based around MSU melta/Plasma Chosen with Cultist and CSM support, but I need some supporting units. My HQ is a winged DP with Drakescale Plate and a Sorceror biker with Mindveil. I also have a forgefiend (autocannons). Since I can't use cult troops my infantry options are quite limited.

Should I invest in bikers to go with the Mindveil Sorceror? Should I use Oblits or would they not be too useful as they can't infiltrate? Would a Pred or Vindicator work as they are faster than Oblits? What about a Hellturkey or do they suck?

So many questions...

I have just over 500 pts left, any help is much appreciated.

In my Alpha Legion list I've been using a Fire Raptor or two. The non rapid attacking of the Chosen and Cultists is very much complimented by the Fire Raptor killing gak.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Does anyone know any good support units to run with an Alpha Legion infiltrating infantry build?

My army is based around MSU melta/Plasma Chosen with Cultist and CSM support, but I need some supporting units. My HQ is a winged DP with Drakescale Plate and a Sorceror biker with Mindveil. I also have a forgefiend (autocannons). Since I can't use cult troops my infantry options are quite limited.

Should I invest in bikers to go with the Mindveil Sorceror? Should I use Oblits or would they not be too useful as they can't infiltrate? Would a Pred or Vindicator work as they are faster than Oblits? What about a Hellturkey or do they suck?

So many questions...

I have just over 500 pts left, any help is much appreciated.

Get a helfist murder pack with 5 plasma cannons and PF. 550 Pts.