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Hey thanks for all the positive tips guys!
I appreciate you all clearing up my foibles XD

I think captain slam, Lemartes, scouts, and 1 unit of DC is the most obvious choice.

 Ordana wrote:
Don't discount Mephiston. You always take Wings so he has a psuedo jump-pack. Can do turn 1 charges (tho it requires also getting Quickening off which is 50/50) and gives you 2 deny rolls.

Right. He is really strong, and helpful for armies with limited psyker coverage. Downsides are that he doesn't do much to buff your Captain (since he will mostly be buffing himself), costs 16 more points, cannot deep strike, and has to rely on a pseudo Jump Pack that has a 1/18 chance of blowing up in your face, not to mention a 1/6 chance of failing in general; Quickening fails 5/12 times. =\

 Karhedron wrote:

Hadrian Solus wrote:
I was thinking up a Blood angel list at work with the new changes to brigade CP and I was wondering if I could get some constructive criticism. I'm trying to maximize a sole blood angels list for kind of a TAC list

Brigade detachment

HQ
Lemartes 129
Librarian 96
Captain (w/ jump pack TH )(Warlord)(death visions of sanguinius -1cp) 129
Elites
Sanguinary ancient (standard of sacrifice -1cp) 99
x8 Sanguinory guard(swords, bolters) 280
x10 DC (jump packs, x1 powermaul, x1 hand flamer x9 bolt-pistols, x9 chainswords) 205
Troops
x5 scout squad 55
x5 scout squad 55
x5 scout squad 55
x5 Tactical Squad 65
x5 Tactical Squad 65
x5 Tactical Squad 65
x1 razorback-twin assault cannon 116
x1 razorback-twin assault cannon 116
Elites
Heavy Support
x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 3 lascannon) 145
x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 2 lascannon x 1 Heavy Bolter) 130
x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 2 lascannon x 1 Heavy Bolter) 130

2000 pts

(3 base command points +12 command points from brigade detachment)=15CP-1CP(Death Visions of Sanguinius)-1cp(Armoury of Baal)=13CP

let me know if I hecked up anywhere in the crafting or if there are better suggestions

I'm not too sure of how to edit posts XD so be gentle with me Battle Brothers. I'm just a wee neophyte.

Looks like you have missed out your 3 Fast Attack options. Possibly you could drop the Razorbacks and fit in some FA units that fulfil the same role such as Bolter Inceptors. Squeezing BAs into a Brigade at 2000 points is tricky (but not impossible).

what would you recommend point to get that fast attack requirement. I was thinking of replacing the devs with predators. if I'm not wrong inceptors are 45pts per model. you're absolutely right that it's super hard to get a brigade detachment for BA with only 2000 pts to work with XD

jcd386 wrote:
I think captain slam, Lemartes, scouts, and 1 unit of DC is the most obvious choice.

Well then... to wade into a more controversial topic, what is the ideal setup for the units?

Seems like Combat Knives or Bolters plus Bolt Pistols for the Scouts. I personally prefer Combat Knives because I would only ever use them as an assault screen and not as as objective campers.

But Death Company...? Chainswords and Bolters for the versatility? Thunder Hammers? Power Fists and Hand Flamers? Chainswords and Hand Flamers?

Chainswords and bolters. Maybe a fist or two. Not thunder hammers unless you want them to do what captain smash does, and never hand flamers.

The 2 units that have been real standouts for me have been:
5 packs of CCW scouts w/power sword and stormbolter/combiplas sgt. They do great at chasing tanks across a map, screening, and getting into combat ASAP with the scout rule.
Jump pack librarian, usually with a power sword, but sometimes takes an axe, inferno pistol or combimelta, always takes Wings, unleash Rage if I've got a 15 pack of DC, otherwise Shield can be good, Quickening is solid except for WC7.. The Blood Lance can also do a thing, especially because...
I always take the Relic pack on my Libby for tying up shooting, so positioning is critical. With the 1 CP stratagem to redeploy, plus WoS you can always put him exactly where you want him.
The big downside is he's super squishy, he can sometimes get left out in the open after a big charge, giving him the warlord FNP just means they get Warlord too when they kill him.

Hadrian Solus wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Hadrian Solus wrote:

(3 base command points +12 command points from brigade detachment)=15CP-1CP(Death Visions of Sanguinius)-1cp(Armoury of Baal)=13CP[/list]

let me know if I hecked up anywhere in the crafting or if there are better suggestions

I'm not too sure of how to edit posts XD so be gentle with me Battle Brothers. I'm just a wee neophyte.

Looks like you have missed out your 3 Fast Attack options. Possibly you could drop the Razorbacks and fit in some FA units that fulfil the same role such as Bolter Inceptors. Squeezing BAs into a Brigade at 2000 points is tricky (but not impossible).

what would you recommend point to get that fast attack requirement. I was thinking of replacing the devs with predators. if I'm not wrong inceptors are 45pts per model. you're absolutely right that it's super hard to get a brigade detachment for BA with only 2000 pts to work with XD

A Brigade only gets you 2 more CPs than a double Battalion. I have found double Battalion works well for BAs. A Brigade needs you to spend too many points on weak units like single attack bikes. I would rather run slightly fewer units but make sure they are good units that can fulfill the role I need.

I have not been impressed with Predators in 8th. Running 3 with the Killshot stratagem is cool but stops as soon as you lose the first tank. Your Dev squads look fine to me, I would leave them as they are. Your Razorbacks carry some very tasty dakka for clearing hordes cheaply and they can carry some squads which is handy.

All you need for dual battalion is an extra HQ. Not quite sure what to drop to get the points for it though but it will be easier to find the points for one more HQ than for 3 Fast attack units.

Quick question. Follow up on my questions about a minimal BA detachment.

It's going to have Slamguinius, Lemartes/Mephiston, 3x5 Scouts.

Is it important to have some Death Company jumpers? If so, what unit size should I be taking? 5? 10? 15? And I see a lot of companies mixing Thunder Hammers in. What is the best ratio? I guess 4:1?

And what do I lose if I don't bring them at all? Because right now, taking the DC looks like too many units for too few Stratagems to capitalize on them.

Slamguinius
Forlorn Fury / Descent of Angels + Red Rampage

Lemartes/Mephiston
Forlorn Fury / Descent of Angels + Vengeance for Sanguinius / Red Rampage

Keep in mind that DC have the potential to wipe out half your opponents army, in one turn. A 15 model DC unit can do 180 CC attacks, plus 30 boltgun shots, in one turn. Rerolling all failed hit and charge rolls with lemartes. You need the sanguinor and unleash rage for that. Thats ~730 pts. and 3-5 CP. Is it worth it ? I dont think so. I found out that ~10 models is a good size. 5 is not enough to do significant damage, and 15 is vulnerable to morale losses. Even with lemartes they only have LD 9. You would need a warlord who automatically passes morale tests, or spend 2 CP to do the same. I usually run a 10 DC model unit with two inferno pistols, two PF and 1 TH. And lemartes of course, he is a must have for DC.

@p5freak
Yeah, yeah. I am aware of Lemartes + The Sanguinor + Librarian + 15 DC combination. It has its weaknesses. Namely, it's very much an all-in strategy, and if you don't make it into CC, you're boned. (But if you do, you really can take out half their army in a single turn.) Anyhow, I am not sure I want to invest that heavily into BA. I am primarily looking to use them for the Scouts and very strong skirmisher HQs.

So let's distill this into two questions:
1) What is the most point efficient two-HQ combination? My current research and Mathhammer suggests it is Slamguinius + Lemartes. Or is it Mephiston?
2) Is a unit of DC or SG necessary for such a detachment to function at all?

Also, a random third question:
3) Why 2 Power Fist + Inferno Pistol and 1 Thunder Hammer?

Suzuteo wrote:
@p5freak
Yeah, yeah. I am aware of Lemartes + The Sanguinor + Librarian + 15 DC combination. It has its weaknesses. Namely, it's very much an all-in strategy, and if you don't make it into CC, you're boned. (But if you do, you really can take out half their army in a single turn.) Anyhow, I am not sure I want to invest that heavily into BA. I am primarily looking to use them for the Scouts and very strong skirmisher HQs.

Yes, getting all into CC is not easy. Looks devastating on paper, but not in reality.

Suzuteo wrote:

So let's distill this into two questions:
1) What is the most point efficient two-HQ combination? My current research and Mathhammer suggests it is Slamguinius + Lemartes. Or is it Mephiston?
2) Is a unit of DC or SG necessary for such a detachment to function at all?

1. Well, good question. These are among the best most point efficient two-HQ combinations : Double captn slammy (both can get black rage), captn slammy and mephy, Captn slammy (with black rage) and lemmy.
2. No, not necessary, but it helps.

Suzuteo wrote:

Also, a random third question:
3) Why 2 Power Fist + Inferno Pistol and 1 Thunder Hammer?

Because i bought my DC used and thats what the came with, i like WYSIWYG. Its not bad to have some weapons which can take out high T targets. With lemartes i can re-roll all failed hit rolls, so the -1 to hit for PF and TH isnt to bad. Infernos pistols are cheap, can be used in CC, and have the potential for huge damage. If i go without lemartes my DC only has chainswords and boltguns. I dont like that though. DC and lemmy belong together.

15 DC work fine with Astorath. Plus Astorath can help the rest of your army. Plus,

Suzuteo wrote:
Quick question. Follow up on my questions about a minimal BA detachment.

It's going to have Slamguinius, Lemartes/Mephiston, 3x5 Scouts.

Is it important to have some Death Company jumpers? If so, what unit size should I be taking? 5? 10? 15? And I see a lot of companies mixing Thunder Hammers in. What is the best ratio? I guess 4:1?

I find 10 is a good number for Jump DC. Enough to generate a good number of hits (particularly with Lemmy) but not so large that morale becomes a serious problem.

I like 2 Thunder hammers and 3 power swords with bolters all round. 16 S4 shots followed by 35 attacks on the charge is great for horde clearance. 6 TH attacks will threaten most vehicles and monsters while power swords will mince tough infantry.

Is is important? That depends on what you want and what else you have in your army. My DC always deliver for me although they rarely survive the battle. You don't always need to use FF or DoA on them. Some armies you just know are going to come steaming towards you and you can use the DC as a counter-charge unit, thus saving the CPs.

@p5freak
1) Oh. You can use Death Visions twice then? I was unaware of this. Still, I think having two Thunder Hammers rerolling 1s is inefficient. I mean, neither would get to use Vengeance for Sanguinius. Mephiston can buff himself and Lemartes has that extra attack and the great support auras.
3) Ah. So 2PF+IP/1TH is not an optimization. Got it. From my math, it seems TH is best if you have Lemartes because of the reroll and lower points.

@Martel732
Trying to figure out how to make a small detachment work with the least point investment. BA probably have the easiest access to ways to transform CP into wounds, and their amazing HQs are the primary reason for this.

@Karhedron
Alright. I will consider 10 then. Might be hard to fit into my list. With 2 TH, it's 232 points for the DC alone.

Even in the fluff, Death Company not surviving the battle is considered a good thing. xD

From the rulebook faq.

Q: Is the Deployment step of a mission considered to be a ‘phase’
for the purposes of rules?
A: No.
Note that this means that the Strategic Discipline
matched play rule does not apply to Stratagems that are
used during deployment and they can be used as many
times as a player wishes, as long as they have enough
Command Points to pay for them and the Stratagem
does not explicitly say it can only be used ‘once’, or ‘once
per battle’.

The ruling that lets you use Death visions multiple times.

I am not sold on Lemartes if you don't also have some DC to benefit from his reroll aura. I think a second smash cap would do more and cost exactly the same points but with -1 CP for Black Rage. Lemartes's aura won't help your captains or scouts or mephiston over the reroll 1s aura and he only has a 4++ and 4W. He has more attacks but they are str 6 ... which threatens dramatically fewer things than str 8. Even a base slamcaptain swinging with no CP assistance is going to do more than double the damage lemartes would against any multi wound models. Lemartes will outperform slamcap against GEQs and Eldar troops, but that is not why I bring a blood angels smash hero.

The glorious double battalion QUAD;

Capt. Smash
Mephy
Lemmy
Liet. Smash

Both the non-named characters will get death visions.. spend your remaining CP as desired.

Fill in with 6 troop choices of your choice (personally, 6 choppy scouts, but whatever) +.. the rest of the army.

Now comes with 13CP (5+5+3), use strategems all day long!

Suzuteo wrote:@p5freak
1) Oh. You can use Death Visions twice then? I was unaware of this. Still, I think having two Thunder Hammers rerolling 1s is inefficient. I mean, neither would get to use Vengeance for Sanguinius. Mephiston can buff himself and Lemartes has that extra attack and the great support auras.

Vengeance for Sanguinius only works against HERETIC ASTARTES.

Wulfey wrote:
I am not sold on Lemartes if you don't also have some DC to benefit from his reroll aura. I think a second smash cap would do more and cost exactly the same points but with -1 CP for Black Rage. Lemartes's aura won't help your captains or scouts or mephiston over the reroll 1s aura and he only has a 4++ and 4W. He has more attacks but they are str 6 ... which threatens dramatically fewer things than str 8. Even a base slamcaptain swinging with no CP assistance is going to do more than double the damage lemartes would against any multi wound models. Lemartes will outperform slamcap against GEQs and Eldar troops, but that is not why I bring a blood angels smash hero.

To argue the point, I see four arguments in favor of Lemartes over a second Captain:

1) Slamguinius is DC. So Lemartes and him have great aura synergy. Lemartes gives a charge reroll, which drastically improves the 9" Jump Pack Assault odds; if you use Descent of Angels, it's 93.28% of success. Slamguinius gives a shooting reroll, which is meh, but not nothing when fighting zombies or drones.

2) The statline is also comparable (assuming we're on the charge):

Lemartes
12"M WS2+ BS3+ T4 4W 9Ld 3+/3++/6+++
Bolt Pistol
12"R 1A S4 AP0 D1
The Blood Crozius
6A S6 AP-2 DD3

Slamguinius
12"M WS2+ BS2+ T4 5W 4A 9Ld 3+/4++/6+++
Thunder Hammer
5A S8 AP-3 D3; -1 to hit

The big differences here are that Lemartes trades 1W for 1A, can use Vengeance for Sanguinius ontop of Red Fury for an average 9.33 attacks, and as an aside, can be made your Warlord to gain Deny the Witch, if that's something you need.

3) You don't need two Thunder Hammers, since you're going to be buffing only one of them anyway. That being said, Blood Crozius is actually not bad. It's a Force Axe with +1S.

4) You can only take one Angel's Wing.

So really, after all is said and done, you are choosing between effects: A) Hammer of Baal + Stormshield B) Veritas Vitae (5+ CP recycler) + Stormshield C) The Blood Crozius + Bolt Pistol and charge reroll

 p5freak wrote:
Vengeance for Sanguinius only works against HERETIC ASTARTES.

Yeah. Who are perhaps the best target for The Blood Crozius (6A S6 AP-2 DD3). But those with Power Fist and Thunder Hammer can't use it and those weapons pretty much overkill everything but vehicles and Daemon Princes. Haha.

Hi all. This is my first post I’m new here, new to blood angels and nearly new to 40k. I went for BA because I love the unique units and characters and really want to field an army that makes use of as many of these as possible.

Having seen the faq I’m wondering if there is now a niche for the all flame Baal pred. What about taking two and using them together as a battering ram to smash a hole in your opponents screen first turn and create a drop zone for Sanguinary Guard to drop into?

Now I know they’re not well thought of but I imagine that’s because if you take only one then it becomes a huge target. But if you take two your opponent has to shoot them both off of the board first turn. If they fail to take them both out in their shooting phase then they either charge and get burned to a crisp, or leave you alone and get burned to a crisp next turn.
If you use lucifer pattern engines on one whilst popping smoke, and forlorn fury the DC up the board with them together first then, then your opponent has 3 big threats they have to deal with.

If you can use these 3 together to munch through any chaff and infantry then the sang guard can come down in the hole you create along with captain smash to get at any bigger stuff hiding in the back.

I like to think this is so crazy it just might work...but I’d like to hear some thoughts from more experienced players if it’s just plain crazy!

Zanox wrote:

Having seen the faq I’m wondering if there is now a niche for the all flame Baal pred. What about taking two and using them together as a battering ram to smash a hole in your opponents screen first turn and create a drop zone for Sanguinary Guard to drop into?

Now I know they’re not well thought of but I imagine that’s because if you take only one then it becomes a huge target. But if you take two your opponent has to shoot them both off of the board first turn. If they fail to take them both out in their shooting phase then they either charge and get burned to a crisp, or leave you alone and get burned to a crisp next turn.
If you use lucifer pattern engines on one whilst popping smoke, and forlorn fury the DC up the board with them together first then, then your opponent has 3 big threats they have to deal with.

If you can use these 3 together to munch through any chaff and infantry then the sang guard can come down in the hole you create along with captain smash to get at any bigger stuff hiding in the back.

I like to think this is so crazy it just might work...but I’d like to hear some thoughts from more experienced players if it’s just plain crazy!

Good luck making it work. Baal preds are pretty much useless. To expensive, and flamers are pathetic. 34 pts for 7 boltgun auto hits is ridiculous. With lucifer engines only one baal pred can race across the battlefield, but cannot fire because it advanced, and it only has heavy weapons. If you try that on me i will shoot it with meltas in half range and/or i will tie it up in CC.

Zanox wrote:
Hi all. This is my first post I’m new here, new to blood angels and nearly new to 40k. I went for BA because I love the unique units and characters and really want to field an army that makes use of as many of these as possible.

Having seen the faq I’m wondering if there is now a niche for the all flame Baal pred. What about taking two and using them together as a battering ram to smash a hole in your opponents screen first turn and create a drop zone for Sanguinary Guard to drop into?

Now I know they’re not well thought of but I imagine that’s because if you take only one then it becomes a huge target. But if you take two your opponent has to shoot them both off of the board first turn. If they fail to take them both out in their shooting phase then they either charge and get burned to a crisp, or leave you alone and get burned to a crisp next turn.
If you use lucifer pattern engines on one whilst popping smoke, and forlorn fury the DC up the board with them together first then, then your opponent has 3 big threats they have to deal with.

If you can use these 3 together to munch through any chaff and infantry then the sang guard can come down in the hole you create along with captain smash to get at any bigger stuff hiding in the back.

I like to think this is so crazy it just might work...but I’d like to hear some thoughts from more experienced players if it’s just plain crazy!

Sorry. There are much better anti-infantry threats with much greater range. Which is a shame, since heavy flame weapons should have a role to play in all this -1 to hit madness, but they need minimum 12" range and some additional reason to take them over the much more versatile bolters.

I find that, though expensive points wise, a Storm Raven works well to fulfill a nice fire support role in my army and can nicely clear chaff in preparation for a well timed charge with Death Company and Lemartes/Slamguinius.

Two Hurricane Bolter arrays along with a twin assault cannon and twin Heavy Bolter on the nose is pretty stellar at chopping a chunk out of a screen, and you have a pair of wing mounted Storm Strike missiles you can throw a a high value target or large model. They're St:8, -2 AP and 3 damage each, so they can put a nice dent into a vehicle or large creature.

I prefer them for mobile support of my forces as they move up the board and/or Deep Strike in.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Thanks for the feedback guys. I never really thought of it as autohit bolter shots but I can see where you’re coming from. My point however wasn’t for them to be brilliantly effective as a stand-alone tank, but to create a drop zone for whatever deepstriking units you have in turn 2.

2 of these in your opponents face together either burns your opponents screen to a crisp (creating a drop zone for the heavy hitters) or they both get shot off the board (unlikely, but if they do this it keeps the heat off your DC) or they get shot a bit and charged (hello overwatch - free turn of firing effectively if I’ve used LPE). If your opponent decides to back off to get out of range before attempting the charge then they’re doing exactly what you want in creating that bubble for the deep strike. I imagine this is not going to be viable against good tacticians but it will certainly have some shock factor with people not used to seeing it and not knowing how to deal with it

Actually its 7 heavy bolter autohits for 34 pts. at 8". Not worth it, IMHO. D6 hits is way to random.

Zanox wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys. I never really thought of it as autohit bolter shots but I can see where you’re coming from. My point however wasn’t for them to be brilliantly effective as a stand-alone tank, but to create a drop zone for whatever deepstriking units you have in turn 2.

2 of these in your opponents face together either burns your opponents screen to a crisp (creating a drop zone for the heavy hitters) or they both get shot off the board (unlikely, but if they do this it keeps the heat off your DC) or they get shot a bit and charged (hello overwatch - free turn of firing effectively if I’ve used LPE). If your opponent decides to back off to get out of range before attempting the charge then they’re doing exactly what you want in creating that bubble for the deep strike. I imagine this is not going to be viable against good tacticians but it will certainly have some shock factor with people not used to seeing it and not knowing how to deal with it

Use Razerbacks with Assault Cannons (or Heavy bolters) for the same effect but better?

 Ordana wrote:
Use Razerbacks with Assault Cannons (or Heavy bolters) for the same effect but better?

I agree. Assbacks with storm bolters put out great firepower for their points, are reasonably durable and you can run 3 for the cost of 2 Baals. Plus you can use them to transport small squads and shield them from alpha strikes if you want.

Can our intercessor sgts only take chainswords?? I thought we could use powerswords like everyone else?

Check the BA FAQ.