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Saphos wrote:Shock and horror, Pig Iron was also influenced by someone else? It can´t be because Kroothawk said it isn´t so. He is by far a GW-Fanboy as anyone able to read his posts can discern. No lack of criticism for GW there as far as I can tell. But he likes to miss the mark of modesty with a passion that can indeed be disturbing.

I want to see the rest of the models. I like them so far but want to see more action poses. Elysians and Corporation are close as others have correctly pointed out that they share the same design philosophies. I am more then fine with that.

To be fair I think Kroot has usually been equally critical of other systems in the past (including GW).

Although I think in this case I think that the design of the Mantic stuff is close enough to generic 'sci-fi' that it is unreasonable to call them out as thought they have done something underhanded and stolen the concept. It's not like those Concorde plans going missing for instance and then the Russians turning up with an aeroplane almost exactly the same a couple of years later, or people being critical of Arai helmets for not being original enough because they stole the idea from Ned Kelly..

With Confrontation and AT-43 gone, the tabletop scene is crying for a decent non-skirmish alternative to GW products. I am just angry that Mantic botches this epic opportunity by trying to save on development and design. They slavishly work through the list of popular unreleased GW armies (Squats, Elysians, Praetorians, Lost and the Damned) and show no effort in designing anything (adding cybernetic eyes and guns to Fantasy miniatures while keeping the skirts and swords, only changing details of FW minis now). I hoped that they learned from their botched start in Fantasy, but they obviously didn't.

How are Elysians unreleased? I have them, you know, right here, in my display cabinet. A little extended family of them right there. Aren't they real? Was it all a dream? Have I been throwing money away at nothing?!

ArbeitsSchu wrote:@Kroothawk : Neither of those helmets appears in the prototype drawing, especially the second one, which doesn't even come close except in that its a helmet for a human.

Not to mention they all are ripping off Halo so who really cares...

BrookM wrote:How are Elysians unreleased?

They are unreleased as a GW army, not a FW army, same with DKoK. And before you say that Praetorians and Squats are also released, I use the word "Unreleased" here as a short hand for "many people want an updated and affordable version by GW with Plastic miniatures but GW is not answering that request"

And I thought you sold your Elysians already

Kroothawk wrote:

BrookM wrote:How are Elysians unreleased?

They are unreleased as a GW army, not a FW army, same with DKoK.

And I thought you sold your Elysians already

Not until you invade your eastern neighbours and annex their resin factories I won't. Actually, after recovering them from that theft last year I'm never going to part with them, everrrrrrr.

Well, our Eastern neighbors are producing Anti-German miniatures like there is no tomorrow already

Yessss, do it, instigate Fall Weiß and give them a good slap on the wrist, or have them do anti-American ork figures instead.

You forget that I am not member of the IoM, but the Tau Empire. We don't hate, but spread peace, love and understanding and don't subjugate others
(hiding his Kroot lunch bag and the sketch book with anti-netherlands miniatures )

Kroothawk wrote:First two armies are almost-recasts of Fantasy miniatures. These are almost-recasts of resin Elysians. Now waiting for the almost-recasts of the Praetorians. Did Mantic ever have one original idea? At least one?

Seriously, you're drawing a bit of a long bow here. Human sci-fi soldiers in light armour are going to look pretty similar. Speaking of "original" ideas, GW"s entire IP wants to have a word with you. We can start with the Praetorians if you like..


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Kroothawk wrote:Helmet with visor? Check.
Chest armour with shoulder pads? Check.
Elbow armour? Check.
Knee armour? Only Elysians.
Not sure what you mean with lighter armour.

This guy's not wearing his helmet in the top shot, but it's a nice visual to point out just how ridiculous this particular argument of yours is.







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Buzzsaw wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're just wrong. Or, perhaps better, your rebuttal is a non-sequitur; you say "The helmet with the big extermal visor also doesn't mimick anything in modern armies", which would be useful if I had mentioned military, rather then tactical gear. Tactical gear also includes police gear... you can tell the police personnel in the prior post by the inconspicuous word "police" written on the uniforms.

Actually various pictures of Russian military forces will come up with soldiers or operators wearing visored helmets as well. They wear all sorts of stuff.




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Kroothawk wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:If Pig Iron parts don't fit well on these then Mantic have done themselves a great disservice.

No need, they copy Pig Iron heads as well (helmet A and G)

Thanks for the link to Pig Iron's copies of HALO helmets.

Seriously though, by being this ridiculous in your argument, you're losing credibility (yeah ok, on a warhammer forum on the internet, but still) so when you're actually making good points, people will start to think of you like Worglock or HSBC and discount 90% of what you say as the usual fanboi/haterz rubbish.


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Kroothawk wrote:With Confrontation and AT-43 gone, the tabletop scene is crying for a decent non-skirmish alternative to GW products. I am just angry that Mantic botches this epic opportunity by trying to save on development and design. They slavishly work through the list of popular unreleased GW armies (Squats, Elysians, Praetorians, Lost and the Damned) and show no effort in designing anything (adding cybernetic eyes and guns to Fantasy miniatures while keeping the skirts and swords, only changing details of FW minis now). I hoped that they learned from their botched start in Fantasy, but they obviously didn't.

Well, people have been after Squats for years, and even I'll grant that their version is different enough in execution from the GW ones to make them look reasonably different to the GW ones. FWIW, I don't actually like the Forgefathers (with the exception of that one metal officer figure). Their other army is Orkx, which also use the same recycled fantasy sprue instead of looking like the (quite decent) concept art. Again, I own none, and only like the one metal officer (nob?) figure. I'm pretty sure that Orks aren't "unreleased", though.

Plenty of people have touched on the "oh noes Elysians" in previous posts (and my own above as well), but I'd just like to ask one final question and then make a statement:

Q: Where did you see/hear about a "Praetorians" copy. (I'm not sure where you find Victorian-Era Zulu Wars British uniforms to be "original" - or more accurately, pith helmets placed onto the bodies of Mordian Iron Guard for a GD diorama and then sold due to their popularity.

Now for the statement - I'm not sure where you think the word "original" relates to, but there's not a huge amount of of originality that goes into thinking of a cool concept and adding "in SPAAAAACE!" to the end of it. Fantasy Orcs, Elves, Dwarfs, Knights (Templars), Rambo (including the exceptionally original and wittily-named Sly Marbo - god my sides are splitting just at the thought of the name), WW2 Russians, WW1 Germans with greatcoats and gasmasks, Romans, Ancient Greeks, Mongols, Vikings and Celts, Knight Hospitalier, Hormagaunts ("original" design!), The Terminator, boardgames based on the movie "Aliens", Michael Moorcock's chaos, RuneQuest Broo, Bubblegum Crisis, the Spanish Inquisition - complete with a love of burning heretics and decrying heresy, The Dirty Dozen, Lawrence of Arabia-themed Bedouin & British, Hobbits, Ogres, the villaness from 101 Dalmations....

"________, but IN SPAAAAACE" doesn't make a ripped-off idea "original". And I say this as someone who owns thousands of GW figures and has been a fan of their IP since Rogue Trader came out. I love their work, I just don't delude myself into thinking that it's especially original in concept.

Kroothawk has being abducted by aliens and replaced while I was gone hasn't he...

It's where he gets all the rumors from.

Damn you ghost21 !!!!

Q: Where did you see/hear about a "Praetorians" copy.

Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.

I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.

Yeah, that one was a bit of a head-scratcher...

Actually the russian version of the Concorde is way better designed.

Where the Concorde is cramped up the Tu-144 has a spacious interrior. The cockpit has a simpler design but still is easier to handle with way less instruments. The rear-wheel recovery-mechanism is way better designed and takes less space. Also it guzzles way less kerosin and has a better range, though it can be as fast as the Concorde. And it actually made money, instead of being a money-burner like the Concorde...

I really need to read up on history about it, although wasn't the Concorde in service for many years, and I thought the only supersonic airliner ever to have been used in regular service? I thought the entire Tu-144 project was delayed then cancelled after it crashed at the Paris Air Show trying to avoid that French fighter jet that was spying on it?

Great shame, I think in purely terms of human achievement (and perhaps art!), that the only things we have flying now are great bath-tubs when something so beautiful had been made more than 40 years ago. The last piece of truly great British engineering now consigned to history, even the large model they used to have outside of Heathrow as you drove to the airport is now gone :(

We've gone massively off-topic Duncan_Idaho! Are you suggesting in a round-about way however that the copies can be better than the original? (although I had always thought the opposite had been true re. the Concorde)..

scarletsquig wrote:Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.
I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.

I was referring to this post:

BrookM wrote:They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.

This was posted when some more modern concepts of corporation were already shown, but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space. But maybe BrookM just made a misguiding remark.

Kroothawk wrote:

scarletsquig wrote:Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.
I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.

I was referring to this post:

BrookM wrote:They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.

This was posted when some more modern concepts of corporation were already shown, but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space. But maybe BrookM just made a misguiding remark.

No, I was quoting the article they put on the site I thought you always checked the sources yourself? Shame on you.

Also, Red Coats in space might not literally mean men in red coats with pith helmets, but rather expendables like the Imperial Guard is described nine times out of ten: Expendable troops all lined up in neat rows ready to die.

Can't find this "red coats in space" on their website.

And I don't check Mantic lately. I rely on others to screen the product ranges I am not interested in.

Edit: Then the red coat remark has been indeed misleading. While Stalin treated his troops as expendables, the British parlament didn't. teaches me to rely on others

@Pacific
Is that was my intention: Copies can be better than the original.

Re: Concorde
The Tupolew was not as long in service, but made more money during this time. It came to an end after the crash, but still was more successfull than the Concorde.

If you ever go to Germany make sure you visit the Technikmuseum Sinsheim where both planes are exhibited.

Does anybody still have a downloaded copy of Mantic Journal 5, the one they gave to all subscribers?

Kroothawk wrote:but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space.

This might be the confusion -- it's also commonly used to refer to the one-dies-an-episode nameless extras that joined Capt. Kirk and company on Star Trek. They wore red shirts. (This is what's great about Dakka -- where else can you see someone make a Star Trek reference that gets interpreted as a historical war reference?)

Kroothawk wrote:Can't find this "red coats in space" on their website.

And I don't check Mantic lately. I rely on others to screen the product ranges I am not interested in.

Edit: Then the red coat remark has been indeed misleading. While Stalin treated his troops as expendables, the British parlament didn't. teaches me to rely on others

"Redcoats" would be a reference to a colonising, Imperial army, going to conquer native planets and harvest their resources et al. The PMC/Marines from the film "Avatar" are "redcoats" in this context. Good job engaging with the rest of the stuff I posted, too. You know, even on the internet, you're better off admitting when you're wrong and even apologising at times. You're less likely to lose respect that way.


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Mewens wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space.

This might be the confusion -- it's also commonly used to refer to the one-dies-an-episode nameless extras that joined Capt. Kirk and company on Star Trek. They wore red shirts. (This is what's great about Dakka -- where else can you see someone make a Star Trek reference that gets interpreted as a historical war reference?)

Yep, though those are "redshirts" I wrote a bit about them as being disposable unnamed characters but deleted it since I wasn't sure of BrookM's native language etc. I see you picked up on it as well.

Kroothawk wrote:

scarletsquig wrote:Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.
I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.

I was referring to this post:

BrookM wrote:They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.

This was posted when some more modern concepts of corporation were already shown, but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space. But maybe BrookM just made a misguiding remark.

Yes, he did make a slightly misleading statement, but also one that referred specifically to the background and not the miniatures. You really should taken his post at slightly less literal terms after he started talking about pixies in space, but this is what happens when people use hyperbole to make stuff up and cast it in a deliberately bad light.

The background for the Corporation is basically that they are the worst parts of the British Empire/ East India trading company rolled into one, ruthlessly exploiting an suppressing anyone with a lower level of technology than them. That was all the redcoats line really refers to, not Mantic's plans to buy Praetorians off ebay, recast them, and sell them in 2012 as their new range of sci-fi troopers.

Anyway, aside from that you seem to be having immense fun once again dredging up the tired "fantasy recasts", "googles in SPAAAAACE", and "Mantic steals everything from GW" arguments that were already done to death multiple times in this thread months ago by you personally, so I'll leave you to it.

In actual news, Mantic has announced "no price rises for 2012"... despite UK inflation running at 5%.

scarletsquig wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

scarletsquig wrote:Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.
I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.

I was referring to this post:

BrookM wrote:They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.

This was posted when some more modern concepts of corporation were already shown, but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space. But maybe BrookM just made a misguiding remark.

Yes, he did make a slightly misleading statement, but also one that referred specifically to the background and not the miniatures. You really should taken his post at slightly less literal terms after he started talking about pixies in space, but this is what happens when people use hyperbole to make stuff up and cast it in a deliberately bad light.

The background for the Corporation is basically that they are the worst parts of the British Empire/ East India trading company rolled into one, ruthlessly exploiting an suppressing anyone with a lower level of technology than them. That was all the redcoats line really refers to, not Mantic's plans to buy Praetorians off ebay, recast them, and sell them in 2012 as their new range of sci-fi troopers.

Anyway, aside from that you seem to be having immense fun once again dredging up the tired "fantasy recasts", "googles in SPAAAAACE", and "Mantic steals everything from GW" arguments that were already done to death multiple times in this thread months ago by you personally, so I'll leave you to it.

In actual news, Mantic has announced "no price rises for 2012"... despite UK inflation running at 5%.

FFS! Again, I was QUOTING the interview found in Mantic Mag 5, where those exact terms were used. FFS..

Ah, I see, yeah... the Alessio quote.

Then we have the mysterious Asterians
(pixies and fairies in spaace!), the
swarming Z’zor (hornets in spaaace!),
the all-consuming Plague (survival
horror in spaaace!), the noble Rebels
(freedom fighters in spaaace!)... and
there’s the eighth race. We don’t talk
about them. ...but I cannot wait for
their release!

You actually took that quote seriously, though? I'm not even sure if the silly "in spaaaaaace" quotes in brackets are what Alessio actually said, or if they were added by the editor later (or quite possibly, a certain overenthusiastic intern. :p).

It's clearly a tongue-in-cheek description, in fact, Alessio is pretty much just fooling around for the course of that entire interview, if the words in brackets are actually his. Taking it out of context, jumping all over the word "redcoats" and using it to support a 5-page made-up ramble about Mantic recasting GW's Praetorians (the design of which is totally copyright GW and their own unique IP) is a bit of a stretch on Kroothawk's part, and is really just clutching at straws at this point, in a desperate attempt to find something bad to say about the Corporation release.

If you'd watched any of the videos they did explaining the background, it'd be clear that they're not quite that simplistic as the "in spaaaaaaace" rambling that Alessio went on about.

Asterian concept is more like "Greys" than space pixies... they are sighted near black holes and carry out mass abductions.

I am impressed. Very impressed. The only slight problem is the shoulders. I can deal with the lame looking gun.

The legs are great, the helmets are the the best i've ever seen from a science fantasy standpoint. I.e they are a perfect combo of medievil and modern. A minor thing but the face on the first grunt is so cool, all scrunched up and nasty looking.

The fluff is pretty good as well.

scarletsquig wrote:It's clearly a tongue-in-cheek description, in fact, Alessio is pretty much just fooling around for the course of that entire interview, if the words in brackets are actually his. Taking it out of context, jumping all over the word "redcoats" and using it to support a 5-page made-up ramble about Mantic recasting GW's Praetorians (the design of which is totally copyright GW and their own unique IP) is a bit of a stretch on Kroothawk's part, and is really just clutching at straws at this point, in a desperate attempt to find something bad to say about the Corporation release.

Hyperbole and false accusations are not helpful. Noone is talking about recasts (except recasts of Mantic Fantasy sprues that is ).
Taking the only official characterization of a fraction seriously is an understandable "mistake", esp. when nobody cares to give proper quotes of the original sources. Esp. when the other fractions are still Squats, 2nd edition orks, LatD and bug Aliens.

But to stop this OT discussion, let's just agree that many people like the Mantic releases and I don't.

Mad4Minis wrote:

SO, its Space Hulk with IG then...

Aliens with lawn gnomes?

More multi-part models means more conversion fodder. Bring on the fodder...