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I posted this guy in the Showcase section, but I thought it'd be worth discussing my experience here as a contrast to the 'sky is falling' posters.




http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/373538.page

I haven't been active in mini gaming for ages, but the email about GW resin figs was intriguing enough to get me into a store to buy one mini and the WD issue, and plow through getting this guy painted. The only cleanup this guy required was minor flash removal, which took all of five minute with a sharp blade and fine sandpaper. No bubbles. Easier than cleaning up a metal or plastic mini. They've managed to combine slightly better detail than their metal minis with the overall durability (maybe better) than their plastics, which seems like a success in my book. From a painter's perspective, I did find that some of the edges were sharper and finer than I've ever experienced on a metal mini.

I come from a garage kit and mecha and 'real model' background, and greatly prefer resin for most of my models. Assuming GW can get some better eyes on QC to make sure bubble-afflicted models aren't making it into packages, this seems like a good move from the figure-hobbyist perspective. That said, I think paying $20 for a single model was absurd and it'd be unlikely I'd do it again.

schadenfreude wrote:

The part that disappointed me the most with GW is releasing models with a high defect rate isn't going to save them any money. They can pay money to have people inspect figures for defects at the manufacturers, or they can pay money to ship returned figures twice, and inspect the figure for missing parts to ensure that the person who returned the figure returned all parts. I don't see how shipping out defective figures saves them any money, and doing so damages the reputation of their resin finecast line. I could understand screwing your customer base over a bit for money, but loosing money to screw over your customer base makes no sense.

Wouldn't be the first time

But seriously, the only rationalisation I can think of is that GW didn't expect the defective models to get returned. That means they assumed their customers would happily accept defective models after paying through the nose for them, which is kinda insulting.

Ian Sturrock wrote:As GW pointed out, though, the ease with which Finecast deforms in heat does make for very easy conversions. After all your expensive single-character minis have melted into near-unrecognisable mushes on the first warm day, they'll be perfect for converting into Chaos Spawn.

In the next Chaos codex, the Gift of Chaos power will say something like: ". . .on a failed toughness test, the model is changed into a Chaos Spawn! Either replace the model with an appropriate Chaos Spawn model or expose your opponent's model to direct sunlight. If you have no Chaos Spawn model, no direct sunlight or immediate heat source, the model is simply removed as a casualty."

The whole destroyed-by-sunlight thing will be perfect for those Vampire Counts armies too...

Well a Iphone can not withstand cold -12c and its dead

and it sill sells well

Claimh_Solais wrote:Well a Iphone can not withstand cold -12c and its dead

and it sill sells well

Do you understand that there is a significant difference here? Many places will never experience freezing temperatures, let alone 12 degrees below zero. And if they do, people will be keeping themselves and their houses above that temperature, because they can't withstand that kind of temperature without suffering from frostbite. By comparison, pretty much everywhere will get up to 28 degrees - in Australia you'll get that warm in winter. This is not a freak occurance or one that people are physically required to avoid - it's just a nice, warm day.

krazynadechukr wrote:Compare prices of FW & GW FC....

red scorpions (5 minis) honor guard from FW $59 usd
GW FC honor guard $56

FW red scorpion Culln commander (termie armour) $22 usd
GW FC generic space marine commander (reg armor) $20

FW red scorp dreadnought (complete) $41 usd
GW FC dread $44.50

FW preheresy army OR Red Scorpions (40 tactical, 2 dreads, 1 lr, 20 assualt) $644 usd delivered
GW FC similar (40 tactical, 2 dreads, 1 lr, 20 assualt) $565 usd (no shipping or tax)

Which would you choose?

Your prices are a little wrong at the current conversion rate a FW Red Scorpion dreadnought is significantly more than $41 usd

Red Scorpion Dreadnought is 25.5 British Pounds
Right arm is 7.20 British Pounds
Left arm is 7.20 British Pounds

Total is 39.90 British Pounds at a conversion rate of 1.64283 is 65.55 USD which is significantly more than the GW one.

2 Dreadnoughts would be 131.10 USD
20 Red Scorpion Assault Marines would be 102.20 British Pounds which is 167.90 USD
40 Red Scorpion Tactical Marines would be 65.6 British Pounds 107.77 USD
4 Boxes of Tactical Marines to complete the Red Scorpion Tactical Marines 149 USD
1 Leader would be 14.30 British Pounds or 23.40 USD

Total for a FW Red Scorpion Army with 40 Tactical Marines, 2 Dreadnoughts, and 20 Assault Marines is 579.17 USD and delivery would be free because you spent over 250 British Pounds. So even much closer then you think plus you get 4 extra mk IV torso pieces and helmets along with 4 extra red scorpion shoulder pads.

Warps from heat and pressure?

Hi there foam cases :3

Alendrel wrote:

Because the tooled steel molds for polystyrene injection molding are several orders of magnitude more expensive than the silicone rubber (vulcanized or chemical cure) used for metal and resin. A plastic kit needs a high volume of sales to be worthwhile, and a lot of the metal/Finecast range won't hit that threshold. Also, the flexibility of the rubber molds allows for much more complex shapes, with undercuts and such. While their plastic has caught up in its ability to capture and hold detail, to achieve the same kind of effects on the final model would require either breaking the model down into so many parts they'd be better off resculpting it from the ground up for plastic, or using multi-section molds, which are become even more expensive as they get more complex.

I used to design injection molds. What I always thought GW should do for characters and other metal minis is to produce them in multicavity molds with all the special characters for an army each occupying a separate cavity in a single tool. 1 tool 4-6 kits. At that volume, it should be cheap enough that the current prices more than make up for the investment.

lol, they'd have to have like two or three molds dedicated to just Space Marines.

Can someone explain this to me.

Why did GW create Incubi in metal , and 2 months later redo it in resin?

from this , isnt it safe to say finecast line came out unexpectedly even for GW themselves?

If so , why? what made them decide to push finecast inside the sudden time frame?

Does it have anything to do with embargo and price increase? perhaps " one hard shock for change is better than smaller multiple shocks" ?

GW, you are ever so sly and smart....

snt it safe to say finecast line came out unexpectedly

No, it took months of planning, hard work and coordination of new supplies including everything from new boxes and blisters to mold cutting and the raw material testing, then weeks of round-the-clock production in order to roll out what is essentially an entirely new product line. It's beyond ludicrous to think that it was an "overnight" change made unexpectedly.

BrassScorpion wrote:

snt it safe to say finecast line came out unexpectedly

No, it took months of planning, hard work and coordination of new supplies including everything from new boxes and blisters to mold cutting and the raw material testing, then weeks of round-the-clock production in order to roll out what is essentially an entirely new product line. It's beyond ludicrous to think that it was an "overnight" change made unexpectedly.

Then why did the metal incubi get replaced with resin ones right away?

If you look at it , wouldnt it make more sense if Fine Cast were say released 2 more months later than what we got now?

Planning or not is one thing , im saying, they pushed the release earlier for some reason.

Then why did the metal incubi get replaced with resin ones right away?

I'm amazed at how little understanding there is of how the world works on these forums.

They got replaced because GW replaced all of their metal line in their stores with Finecast and the Incubi are hot sellers, really hot sellers, so they replaced them right away. The new product replaced ALL metal in the stores, all of it was pulled to launch Finecast.

Why were they released in metal in the first place? They are hot sellers, really hot sellers, and they sold a lot of them between release and the Finecast roll-out. As soon as they reappeared in Finecast they have sold incredibly well again. I saw them sell out in my local stores on the first day in both metal and then again in Finecast. It's that simple.

New product lines don't get done by magic, especially in large corporations. There are prices to negotiate, orders to place and be filled, testing to be done, weeks of production to fill all the orders for the retailers and time to ship the stuff and stock the shelves before launch day. Seriously, the idea that it was an overnight unexpected change is ridiculous. To believe that is to say the least extremely naive, that's the politest way I can phrase that.

The fact that some forum users could believe that Finecast was some kind of last minute change explains a lot as to why there are so many silly arguments on these forums. A little factual information education and basic knowledge of how the world actually works would stop a lot of crazy arguments before they got started. It amazes me that an explanation to debunk such a silly myth could even be necessary.

LunaHound wrote:Can someone explain this to me.

Why did GW create Incubi in metal , and 2 months later redo it in resin?

from this , isnt it safe to say finecast line came out unexpectedly even for GW themselves?

If so , why? what made them decide to push finecast inside the sudden time frame?

Does it have anything to do with embargo and price increase? perhaps " one hard shock for change is better than smaller multiple shocks" ?

GW, you are ever so sly and smart....

Just because something went on sale in the retail world doesn't mean it wasn't already produced months ahead of time. I remember reading rumors on this site and warseer that said most of the Dark Eldar wave 1 was already produced and ready a year before its actual release. Also, switching over a new and popular product to a supposedly more affordable material and manufacturing technique makes good business sense. To me at least.

BrassScorpion wrote:The fact that some forum users could believe that Finecast was some kind of last minute change explains a lot as to why there are so many silly arguments on these forums. A little factual information education and basic knowledge of how the world actually works would stop a lot of crazy arguments before they got started. It amazes me that an explanation to debunk such a silly myth could even be necessary.

Well then, that means there's absolutely no excuse for the poor quality of some Finecast models, since they had ample time to prepare for it.

Speaking of which, can anyone confirm what GW's return policy is on the new Finecast models? I keep hearing one of two things: people are being asked to ship the models back (which is bs, I'm already out the money for the models and now I have to spend even more, fixing YOUR mistake?), or GW customer service is operating as normal and just shipping out non-gak models no questions asked.

BrassScorpion wrote:

Then why did the metal incubi get replaced with resin ones right away?

I'm amazed at how little understanding there is of how the world works on these forums.

They got replaced because GW replaced all of their metal line in their stores with Finecast and the Incubi are hot sellers, really hot sellers, so they replaced them right away. The new product replaced ALL metal in the stores, all of it was pulled to launch Finecast.

Why were they released in metal in the first place? They are hot sellers, really hot sellers, and they sold a lot of them between release and the Finecast roll-out. As soon as they reappeared in Finecast they have sold incredibly well again. I saw them sell out in my local stores on the first day in both metal and then again in Finecast. It's that simple.

New product lines don't get done by magic, especially in large corporations. There are prices to negotiate, orders to place and be filled, testing to be done, weeks of production to fill all the orders for the retailers and time to ship the stuff and stock the shelves before launch day. Seriously, the idea that it was an overnight unexpected change is ridiculous. To believe that is to say the least extremely naive, that's the politest way I can phrase that.

The fact that some forum users could believe that Finecast was some kind of last minute change explains a lot as to why there are so many silly arguments on these forums. A little factual information education and basic knowledge of how the world actually works would stop a lot of crazy arguments before they got started. It amazes me that an explanation to debunk such a silly myth could even be necessary.

Wow... i asked a question because i wanted to know.

Thanks for the answer , and then some lecture thanks too , then some insults.

LunaHound wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:*snip*

Wow... i asked a question because i wanted to know.

Thanks for the answer , and then some lecture thanks too , then some insults.

You didn't know that BrassScorpion is smarter than everyone on these forums? Not only that, but he's better looking and has a better credit score too.

puma713 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:*snip*

Wow... i asked a question because i wanted to know.

Thanks for the answer , and then some lecture thanks too , then some insults.

You didn't know that BrassScorpion is smarter than everyone on these forums? Not only that, but he's better looking and has a better credit score too.

Its alright really, he atleast took the time to answer my question.

The insult i'll accept it as some sort of trade for receiving the answer. :3

Sidstyler wrote:Speaking of which, can anyone confirm what GW's return policy is on the new Finecast models? I keep hearing one of two things: people are being asked to ship the models back (which is bs, I'm already out the money for the models and now I have to spend even more, fixing YOUR mistake?), or GW customer service is operating as normal and just shipping out non-gak models no questions asked.

If its truly anything other then the latter, then that irritates me more then the price rise and all the rest of GWs recent decisions.

Prometheum5 wrote:I posted this guy in the Showcase section, but I thought it'd be worth discussing my experience here as a contrast to the 'sky is falling' posters.




http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/373538.page

I haven't been active in mini gaming for ages, but the email about GW resin figs was intriguing enough to get me into a store to buy one mini and the WD issue, and plow through getting this guy painted. The only cleanup this guy required was minor flash removal, which took all of five minute with a sharp blade and fine sandpaper. No bubbles. Easier than cleaning up a metal or plastic mini. They've managed to combine slightly better detail than their metal minis with the overall durability (maybe better) than their plastics, which seems like a success in my book. From a painter's perspective, I did find that some of the edges were sharper and finer than I've ever experienced on a metal mini.

I come from a garage kit and mecha and 'real model' background, and greatly prefer resin for most of my models. Assuming GW can get some better eyes on QC to make sure bubble-afflicted models aren't making it into packages, this seems like a good move from the figure-hobbyist perspective. That said, I think paying $20 for a single model was absurd and it'd be unlikely I'd do it again.

I really would like to believe you, but upon closer inspection of your own thread it appears that the bolt-pistol barrel is mis-cast and (as a military modeller does) drilling it out has only made this more noticable.

You also failed to straighten the crozius handle. Did this happen when you were using a hairdryer to speed up the paint drying process? Did you also notice stress lines in your dry paint due to flexing/bending of the resin?

Then your claims of 5min prep time in this thread make you a liar when in the other thread you said it took "half an hour from blister to base".

The sky is definitely not falling, but my respect for GW and GW-apologists is.

As I explained in the thread, the bolt pistol barrel was my fault, and not miscast. I got a little overzealous with the X-acto blade and didn't feel like replacing the barrel after paint. The Crozius handle also was true at some point, but like you said, I managed to add a little jag back into it. That'll be no problem to fix now, even with a painted mini, as the paint adhesion to the figure is awesome. As for the prep... half an hour or five minutes, sue me. Either way it was a breeze, and I would in no way consider myself a GW apologist considering this is the first GW mini I have touched in two years.

You didn't know that BrassScorpion is smarter than everyone on these forums?

I never said that, but if someone can believe a major product line can be changed "at the last minute" then I guarantee you I'm smarter than they are. Or they are like 8 years old and have no idea how the world actually works.

Just for the record, the lead time on White Dwarf magazine is 3 months. In other words, when you see something in White Dwarf, it was planned, written, edited, and finalized at least 3 months before customers see it. Now what was the big advertisement for in the front of the latest White Dwarf?

Seriously, if you've never worked for a large company, been involved in purchasing or production or planning for a large scale operation in any way, then please keep the delusion that a product involving months of planning, testing, coordination of supplies, contracts, manufacturing and shipping could be a "last minute change" to yourself. I like games about make-believe like Warhammer, but the real world doesn't violate the laws of physics the way the rules for the models do in tabletop games. I get the impression some people are having trouble separating fantasy from reality.

BrassScorpion wrote: when you see something in White Dwarf

Lost me here.

BrassScorpion wrote:

You didn't know that BrassScorpion is smarter than everyone on these forums?

I never said that, but if someone can believe a major product line can be changed "at the last minute" then I guarantee you I'm smarter than they are. Or they are like 8 years old and have no idea how the world actually works.

Just for the record, the lead time on White Dwarf magazine is 3 months. In other words, when you see something in White Dwarf, it was planned, written, edited, and finalized at least 3 months before customers see it. Now what was the big advertisement for in the front of the latest White Dwarf?

Seriously, if you've never worked for a large company, been involved in purchasing or production or planning for a large scale operation in any way, then please keep the delusion that a product involving months of planning, testing, coordination of supplies, contracts, manufacturing and shipping could be a "last minute change" to yourself. I like games about make-believe like Warhammer, but the real world doesn't violate the laws of physics the way the rules for the models do in tabletop games. I get the impression some people are having trouble separating fantasy from reality.

You know whats funny? a sudden change doesnt have to be a last "minute change"
For a large company , even half a year can be considered sudden.

Its like a large oil tanker, the momentum dictates it'll take awhile to change a direction , but it doesnt mean the crew is going to be chillaxing and not wanting to make a sharp turn from an incoming iceberg.
So especially according to yourself , with all the department and chains needed to deliver the final product to us consumers.
You should know DAMN WELL what happens when a mistake is made amidst the chain from any of the departments . ( <--- tell me in ur own words what happens , self proclaimed smart guy in large company )

So basically , i think you just think too lowly of what i posted and filled in some blanks for what you assumed others are thinking.

I haven't been following this thread too closely until now. So I apologize for asking questions that may have been answered earlier.

Do the miscasts, brittle resin mixes, and bubbles seem to be appearing in the same miniatures or are they spread around? I mean, I've read where someone has opened several blisters of the same model, and not one of them was cast correctly. I've also heard of people picking a random blister off the shelf and never having any problems.

The reason I'm asking this is I'm hoping for some clue as to how quickly GW is tweaking the process. I'm hoping that the problems are getting fewer as GW ups its QC and the individuals making the product become more practiced.

Anpu-adom wrote:I haven't been following this thread too closely until now. So I apologize for asking questions that may have been answered earlier.

Do the miscasts, brittle resin mixes, and bubbles seem to be appearing in the same miniatures or are they spread around? I mean, I've read where someone has opened several blisters of the same model, and not one of them was cast correctly. I've also heard of people picking a random blister off the shelf and never having any problems.

The reason I'm asking this is I'm hoping for some clue as to how quickly GW is tweaking the process. I'm hoping that the problems are getting fewer as GW ups its QC and the individuals making the product become more practiced.

bubbles & incomplete areas are in different areas on same models....nearly every model made has a bad few.....

majority of finecast are nice though....

blisters are clear and you can see them....

resin is a more rubbery resin compared to fw resin....less brittle....

It's most likely this: GW had been looking into and researching the potential to switch over for at least a couple of years. In the meantime, they maintain metal production according to their usual schedule. As things progress, they realize it'd take two-three months for them to implement the switch over, and that once they initiate it, it's basically a point of no return.

Eventually, they decide to pull the trigger, set a target date for the initial release, and begin their switch over process: spinning up an extra stock of metal product to get them through projected sales during the internal switch over when they won't be producing metal, installing the new machines to handle the resin (mixers fitted to existing spincasters, or mixers and new injection molding machines), laying up new molds, and producing the initial release stock.

So it was roughly March or so when they made the call. At that point the O&G metals were released, and the GK metals would have already been made and packaged. The TK stuff was far enough out that metal production hadn't started, so they got pushed into June, along with the DE non-plastic items.

And this is where the execrable QC issues crop up. Either the mold failure rate was higher than anticipated, or it took longer than estimated to produce figures (or both), and they realized they would not hit their release date if they rejected things that should be rejected. Since they had limited stock on hand and couldn't easily shift back to metal without further disrupting the Finecast release, they made the call to push numbers over quality to make the release date.

You know whats funny?

I do know what's "funny". Like that my original polite posts were met with rudeness to try and make up for lack of anything viable to dispute the clearly factual information I was presenting. So, my tone changed in turn. If people want respect, they need to show some.

I also know it's funny that people keep changing the parameters of what they were saying so as not to appear incorrect or feel embarrassed by claims that have no basis in reality.

I also think it's funny that some people expect me to engage endlessly about this. I presented some useful information and took the time to explain it against my better judgment. I don't see any need to do so repeatedly. Life has better things to offer than the 50 pages of mostly dross appearing here and I have no wish to encourage it further. Moving on...

Alendrel wrote:It's most likely this: GW had been looking into and researching the potential to switch over for at least a couple of years. In the meantime, they maintain metal production according to their usual schedule. As things progress, they realize it'd take two-three months for them to implement the switch over, and that once they initiate it, it's basically a point of no return.

Eventually, they decide to pull the trigger, set a target date for the initial release, and begin their switch over process: spinning up an extra stock of metal product to get them through projected sales during the internal switch over when they won't be producing metal, installing the new machines to handle the resin (mixers fitted to existing spincasters, or mixers and new injection molding machines), laying up new molds, and producing the initial release stock.

So it was roughly March or so when they made the call. At that point the O&G metals were released, and the GK metals would have already been made and packaged. The TK stuff was far enough out that metal production hadn't started, so they got pushed into June, along with the DE non-plastic items.

And this is where the execrable QC issues crop up. Either the mold failure rate was higher than anticipated, or it took longer than estimated to produce figures (or both), and they realized they would not hit their release date if they rejected things that should be rejected. Since they had limited stock on hand and couldn't easily shift back to metal without further disrupting the Finecast release, they made the call to push numbers over quality to make the release date.

+1 , Hivemind.

BrassScorpion wrote:

You know whats funny?

I do know what's "funny". Like that my original polite posts were met with rudeness to try and make up for lack of anything viable to dispute the clearly factual information I was presenting. So, my tone changed in turn. If people want respect, they need to show some.

I also know it's funny that people keep changing the parameters of what they were saying so as not to appear incorrect or feel embarrassed by claims that have no basis in reality.

I also think it's funny that some people expect me to engage endlessly about this. I presented some useful information and took the time to explain it against my better judgment. I don't see any need to do so repeatedly. Life has better things to offer than the 50 pages of mostly dross appearing here and I have no wish to encourage it further. Moving on...

I havnt read what other posts you received in earlier pages. And i certainly dont appreciate your reaction in your reply to me ( when i wasnt the one that made you changed your tone, or was i? )
Read Aledrenl's post,it states the possibilities to why GW implemented the release like it has.