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@Shuma: All agreed. Tho at least we won't have to worry about Nidzilla anymore... I think it's safe to say Nidzilla will have it's teeth pulled.

A five page thread on a picture (might even be a mockup/placeholder?) for a future Codex release... is probably just about ready to collapse under its own weight.

Having said that, it does seem to continue the trend of very uninspiring Codex covers...

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Shuma: All agreed. Tho at least we won't have to worry about Nidzilla anymore... I think it's safe to say Nidzilla will have it's teeth pulled.

I doubt it. People like nidzilla, so they're unlikely to pull it from the book as a viable army, especially considering the current trend of "throw it all in". Considering earlier rumors of supercarnifexes representing individual creatures that have fought and evolved over centuries its likely venerable carnifexes will put zilla back into contention.

ShumaGorath wrote:I doubt it. People like nidzilla, so they're unlikely to pull it from the book as a viable army, especially considering the current trend of "throw it all in". Considering earlier rumors of supercarnifexes representing individual creatures that have fought and evolved over centuries its likely venerable carnifexes will put zilla back into contention.

I have a feeling you're right.

Mostly because GW likes the Nids and so won't throw the "You can still do it in Apocalypse" stick.

Platuan4th wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I doubt it. People like nidzilla, so they're unlikely to pull it from the book as a viable army, especially considering the current trend of "throw it all in". Considering earlier rumors of supercarnifexes representing individual creatures that have fought and evolved over centuries its likely venerable carnifexes will put zilla back into contention.

I have a feeling you're right.

Mostly because GW likes the Nids and so won't throw the "You can still do it in Apocalypse" stick.

They also never needed a 100 page confusidex of special rules to represent. They don't need the chaos treatment because they are a single army, not 14 stuffed into a single book. They've managed to be pretty diverse with only a handful of actual units so far.

I think the rumors involving the conversation with Phil Kelly said something about the new codex allowing armies with lots of medium bugs. I kinda wonder if that'll be the new Nidzilla...lots of Warriors, Ravs, etc. backed by MCs. I'm still not convinced that elite Carnifexes will survive, but if Warriors and Lictors are worth it as rumors state, then it'd still be a pretty compact army.

gorgon wrote:I think the rumors involving the conversation with Phil Kelly said something about the new codex allowing armies with lots of medium bugs. I kinda wonder if that'll be the new Nidzilla...lots of Warriors, Ravs, etc. backed by MCs. I'm still not convinced that elite Carnifexes will survive, but if Warriors and Lictors are worth it as rumors state, then it'd still be a pretty compact army.

Sadly that was my army in the current codex. I sold it a month or two after the marine dex came out to start the sharks. I was very put off by the virtual uselessness of raveners and lictors.

ShumaGorath wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Shuma: All agreed. Tho at least we won't have to worry about Nidzilla anymore... I think it's safe to say Nidzilla will have it's teeth pulled.

I doubt it.

Then how will GW sell loads and loads of new models to existing players?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Then how will GW sell loads and loads of new models to existing players?

Making Stealers Elites again.


I keed, I keed!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Shuma: All agreed. Tho at least we won't have to worry about Nidzilla anymore... I think it's safe to say Nidzilla will have it's teeth pulled.

I doubt it.

Then how will GW sell loads and loads of new models to existing players?

By realizing that their business model is to sell to new customers and people buying new armies, and not try and dupe the vets who have spent their wad and at best are incremental purchasers of new models? Do we really need to get into the GW economic model argument again? Because I'm ready to lay down the knowledge any time.

Really? My hundreds upon hundreds of dollars worth of nerfed models beg to differ.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Really? My hundreds upon hundreds of dollars worth of nerfed models beg to differ.

And the dozens of new players purchasing armies then grinding out of the hobby for every person like you don't care. For every vet getting a codex in an army he already owns there are many, many, casual players, christmas gift kids, and people who start that new army and switch off from an old one. Veterans are not a majority in the hobby, they just stick together.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think it's safe to say Nidzilla will have it's teeth pulled.

You mean like they did in 5th edition .

Hmm, could they modify NidZilla to require a special HQ character which then allows you to take Elite fexes (and also perhaps has other limitations, e.g. no stealers or no fast attack)? That would be in keeping with recent codexes.

Someone mentioned the all-cc army - I would so love a special character which allows a sensible all-cc army (extra speed or some other stats modification) and excludes all shooty units/biomorphs. If that can be done with proper balance, that would be amazingly fluffy and full of coolness. But I may be dreaming...

Clang wrote:Hmm, could they modify NidZilla to require a special HQ character which then allows you to take Elite fexes (and also perhaps has other limitations, e.g. no stealers or no fast attack)? That would be in keeping with recent codexes.

Someone mentioned the all-cc army - I would so love a special character which allows a sensible all-cc army (extra speed or some other stats modification) and excludes all shooty units/biomorphs. If that can be done with proper balance, that would be amazingly fluffy and full of coolness. But I may be dreaming...

I simply mentioned that my Tau don't have the ability for strong CC units (Kroot are useful only under certain circumstances...and those mostly depend on the terrain of the board!), so I wondered why the Tyranids can make a shooty army, as well as a CC one...

For the most part, tyranids have been a real shooty army with the CC part of the army being more a support role. I can't speak for 2nd, but this was true for 3rd edition and 4rth.

Being only CC is a pain when your big bad MC have to walk across the board...and the extra 3.5" avg you get with run still isn't good. Plus with how resiliant transports are combined with no autopinning of passengers, I am very skeptical of a pure CC army ever being a top tier army.

Carnifexes are going to have to get faster somehow, or we are going to have to reliably stop whatever they are targeting long enough for a Fex to wreck the bejesus out of it. Carnifex close combat is fairly awful right now as it is, so the poor guy needs some fixing before we can consider how to get him where he needs to be first. If they had impact hits or hit multiple models per attack because of their massive scythe claws then they could engage hordes and actually smash through them like they are supposed to be able to do. Furthermore, crushing claws could do something that makes sense, like after one attack hits all the later ones auto-hit or all attacks count as ap1 on the damage tables or something to represent it holding something down and crushing it.

Railguns wrote:Carnifexes are going to have to get faster somehow,

Can they not Run like a Dread or any other non-Flying MC?

They can, and that helped, but they still cannot fleet (which would be me changing my pants, and interesting to model)

An average of 9.5" of movement a turn really isn't that fast for a dedicated assault carni, especially if you can't assault after it. Good luck catching those transports moving 12" away a turn.

Sure, tho 9.5" is the same as what CSM CC Dreads and Wraithlords need to make do with. Now sure, Wraithlords being Eldar should get Fleet, which would help when they finally get within 12", but otherwise not impressive. And the Dreads sometimes go Frenzy and don't move at all.

But then, that's why Nids are going to need (and get) other mobility via DS (Tunneling) Trygon and who knows what else...

I just hope that the image of a bullcharging Carnifex that smashes handfuls of infantry and vehicles aside as it crunches through the enemy formation in a berserk fury is ably represented and not just relegated to wishful thinking like it is now. "Oh! You brought a close combat carnifex? It can't charge if it runs? Okay, I'll just put this speedbump in the way so it can kill 2 models a turn and spend 4-6 turns of the game achieving nothing."

I agree

And I really hope that the Trygon is some sort of tunneling transport type thing, that would be so characterful and awesome game-play.

Railguns wrote:I just hope that the image of a bullcharging Carnifex that smashes handfuls of infantry and vehicles aside as it crunches through the enemy formation in a berserk fury is ably represented and not just relegated to wishful thinking like it is now. "Oh! You brought a close combat carnifex? It can't charge if it runs? Okay, I'll just put this speedbump in the way so it can kill 2 models a turn and spend 4-6 turns of the game achieving nothing."

Well it is a decent tactic to use against them...
And I imagine Space Marine players hope that the imagine of a single Marine killing 10,000+ xenos skum with a hand tied his back will be ably represented...

I could easily see the Carnifex & Trygon gaining Tank Shock ability.

Hmm, maybe elite Carnifexes could be Fleet and have cc weapons only? That would be amusing, but Zilla players with 6 shooty fexes wouldn't be impressed, I suppose.

Or elite Carnifexes could Deepstrike (fluffwise, bursting out of the ground)?

Pure wishful thinking of course, I'm sure any such decisions have been made. But I'm really really hoping to see useful cc fexes. And yes, letting them tank shock would be cool.

And I imagine Space Marine players hope that the imagine of a single Marine killing 10,000+ xenos skum with a hand tied his back will be ably represented...

No Retreat + synapse takes care of that just fine. Any other requests?

Make Carnifexes T8 base and give 'em fleet and then we'll see them doing something useful in HTH.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Don't be ridiculous.

i agree i haet it when there are are optional lists why cant i take noise marines in my death guard army while still geting my death guard army bonuses pete haines forces you to pick a traitor legion instaed of jsut playing black legion and using whatever units i watn
why do they pigeonhole the legions into organizing like the legions anyway that makes no sense???


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the subject of Tyranids I am looking forward to the trygon more than anything. Swarms being buffed is also great as that's basically the Tyranid fluff focus.

Railguns wrote:I just hope that the image of a bullcharging Carnifex that smashes handfuls of infantry and vehicles aside as it crunches through the enemy formation in a berserk fury is ably represented and not just relegated to wishful thinking like it is now. "Oh! You brought a close combat carnifex? It can't charge if it runs? Okay, I'll just put this speedbump in the way so it can kill 2 models a turn and spend 4-6 turns of the game achieving nothing."

They don't need speed bumps. They just start off the back board and wait the 3 turns it takes the carnifex to "run" across the board. Then they hop in a transport and leave the carnifex in the dust. This is why shooty fex has been the optimum build.

The current SM Dreadnought favorite build is one with a MM and a HF that drop pods into the midst of the enemy. So we are talking about a Shooty dreadnought that can deepstrike. I expect Chaos Dreads to get the same treatment in the next dex. From what I have seen, players tend to rely more on the shooty aspect for walkers whether they be Wraithlords or Dreads due to them moving slowly.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Make Carnifexes T8 base and give 'em fleet and then we'll see them doing something useful in HTH.

Yeah, this sounds good. T8 Carnifex would be a lot better in HTH, and more importantly is less likely to get killed before it realises it's time to attack. >_>

I'd also like to see Trygons able to Deep Strike with Ravener Broods (to represent tunneling out of the ground), and the Lictor's Secret Deployment rule to be overhauled (which, by the sounds of things is going to happen anyway).

I wouldn't mind seeing Raveners beefed up to S5 too, they seem pretty mediocre currently. Warrior BS needs increasing (2 is a joke; I think a Termagant has higher BS?). I know biomorphs can cover those, but really I think Warriors should be BS3 base (with the option to take Enhanced Senses to increase it to 4 for a hefty points cost).

Mind, all this is coming from someone who hasn't played 'Nids since 3rd Edition rulebook. I am going to restart collecting them though- I just don't know if it's viable to buy anything now, or wait for the Codex.

As far as models go:
I'd love to see a new Hive Tyrant- I'm not a fan of the current one. Gargoyles NEED to be a plastic kit (or at the very least a good metal kit), and plastic Raveners would be a good idea too.

Looking back on my old 'Nids army, it's kinda funny. I had most of my old Raveners with Warrior heads, and then the newer Ravener kit did that anyway