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Trust me I know all about Carnifexes needing to waddle all the way across the board to be left in the dust by everyone else's mech armies. If they don't decide to just melta or plasma the poor, intellectually stunted thing and put it out of its misery and bag a nice 113-150 point monstrous creature.

Neith wrote:I'd also like to see Trygons able to Deep Strike with Ravener Broods (to represent tunneling out of the ground)

They can do that currently. I'm betting Arby will take it away if the Trygon makes it in the book in the interest of "fair play" or something.

Railguns wrote:Trust me I know all about Carnifexes needing to waddle all the way across the board to be left in the dust by everyone else's mech armies. If they don't decide to just melta or plasma the poor, intellectually stunted thing and put it out of its misery and bag a nice 113-150 point monstrous creature.

This is true, except for armies that have transports that lack firing slots for their transports (Tau)...and for those that argue that Nidzilla is so terribly unplayable....good! A much more viable tactic is to run the Carnifex with some Genestealers or Gaunts in front, that can help catch the faster enemies.

Platuan4th wrote:

Neith wrote:I'd also like to see Trygons able to Deep Strike with Ravener Broods (to represent tunneling out of the ground)

They can do that currently. I'm betting Arby will take it away if the Trygon makes it in the book in the interest of "fair play" or something.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Hopefully it'll make it into the Codex, but it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't.

Che-Vito wrote:
This is true, except for armies that have transports that lack firing slots for their transports (Tau)...and for those that argue that Nidzilla is so terribly unplayable....good! A much more viable tactic is to run the Carnifex with some Genestealers or Gaunts in front, that can help catch the faster enemies.

Now that everything can run, Genestealers and Gaunts aren't really any faster than anything else. Also, I'd hardly call screening a 113+ point model with fragile 16+ point models a "viable tactic." It's scenarios like these that make it obvious why Nids are getting redone before Necrons and DE and all the rest; 5th edition rules straight massacred them. The fact that all of the recent codices have been trending towards larger armies full of cheap troops and transports is just another kick in the teeth. Nidzilla isn't unplayable, but it's pretty much the only way you can hope to win a game. Even with a big army of badass Carnifexes, though, you can expect to get many of them melted before they can do more than squeeze off a few barbed strangler shots.

I'm really hoping Raveners can attack off Deep Strike. That's really the only thing that's going to make them usable, outside of dramatically redoing their stat line. Lictor fixes are also high on my wishlist. Someone suggested that they basically assault as though they had 3rd edition rules (i.e., your opponent doesn't pile in), and that makes perfect sense from both fluff and functional standpoints. I know it's unwise to get my hopes up, but it's hard not to. Nids can't be too much worse than they currently are, right?

MilkmanAl wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
This is true, except for armies that have transports that lack firing slots for their transports (Tau)...and for those that argue that Nidzilla is so terribly unplayable....good! A much more viable tactic is to run the Carnifex with some Genestealers or Gaunts in front, that can help catch the faster enemies.

Now that everything can run, Genestealers and Gaunts aren't really any faster than anything else. Also, I'd hardly call screening a 113+ point model with fragile 16+ point models a "viable tactic." It's scenarios like these that make it obvious why Nids are getting redone before Necrons and DE and all the rest; 5th edition rules straight massacred them. The fact that all of the recent codices have been trending towards larger armies full of cheap troops and transports is just another kick in the teeth. Nidzilla isn't unplayable, but it's pretty much the only way you can hope to win a game. Even with a big army of badass Carnifexes, though, you can expect to get many of them melted before they can do more than squeeze off a few barbed strangler shots.

I'm really hoping Raveners can attack off Deep Strike. That's really the only thing that's going to make them usable, outside of dramatically redoing their stat line. Lictor fixes are also high on my wishlist. Someone suggested that they basically assault as though they had 3rd edition rules (i.e., your opponent doesn't pile in), and that makes perfect sense from both fluff and functional standpoints. I know it's unwise to get my hopes up, but it's hard not to. Nids can't be too much worse than they currently are, right?

Outflanking Genestealers, deepstriking Lictors that can tie up units, and tons of large units that can provide cover for Carnifexes....Tyranids are absolutely still competitive...(I won't deny that they need tweaks and changes, as do many 3rd/4th edition armies).

Carnifexes have to have 50% of the model completely hidden from view in order for it to be granted cover. That said, I have a hard time believing that guants and stealers are bulky enough to hide TMC behind. The only models large enough to provide cover for TMC are warriors and Tyrant guard and to do so, you have to pack them together to form a wall...which makes you vulnerable to blast weapons.

As for outflanking genestealers, Space Mech armies have an answer to that...a 35 point rhino. I see it happen too often where the stealers out flank and pop a rhino only to have the squad easily make thier LDR 8 check and then unload into the exposed stealers. Trading a 200+ stealer squad for a 35 point rhino is a win-win situation for mech.

I want crushing claws to have their separate +d6 attacks , without removing their profile attacks.

I also find the stats for movement + number of attacks for dreds and monstrous creatures abit off.

Surely large creature takes larger strides / steps then a small human?
surely a sweep / a swing from large creature can hit multiple targets at once?

When was the last time you successfully distracted a unit with a Lictor? Lictors die in, at most, 2 rounds of close combat thanks to piling in, 4 toughness, and a 5+ save. I wouldn't call that particularly helpful in the tying up department, especially since it costs you 80 points. Let's not even get into how stupid it is that Lictors have to roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table just to deploy.

Genestealers are definitely awesome in close combat, but it doesn't take unearthly skill to avoid outflanking units for a turn. Given how fragile they are, any focused firepower is going to shred them. If you can manage to get too many Stealers within threat range, you're golden for a little bit, but chances are you had to eat 2 units just to get that 1 into combat.

By "tons of large units," you mean...Warriors? Tyrants with Guard? Those are the only decent units capable of screening Carnifexes that Tyranids have. Granted, Warriors with wound allocation abuse make a decent screen, but T4 with a 4+ save doesn't really go that far. Tyrant Guard are sexy, but, like everything else, they're super slow and don't really do anything besides take fire (which, admittedly, they do quite well).

I think just about everyone can agree that Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes, and Genestealers are awesome. Warriors with deathspitters are also pretty cool, even though they're considerably more expensive than they should be. Everything else needs a whole lot of work to be marginally useful. Even those units need some fine tuning. (Why can a 10-man Guardsmen unit tie up a Carnifex for an entire game? That's ridiculous.)

I'm not going to get deep into how badly Tyranids cope with vehicles and the meta-game in general, but when the best anti-vehicle weapon you have is S8 and costs at least 113 points, you know there's a problem.

Basically, I completely disagree that Tyranids are competitive. They can be functional to above average when using one particular list, but they're not competitive at all. In terms of game play, we're stuck with an even more severe version of the Chaos codex. Only a handful of units are even worth considering, and you have to field one specific type of list to have a chance, in most scenarios. At least Chaos's main option is actually powerful. Ours isn't.

wyomingfox wrote:Carnifexes have to have 50% of the model completely hidden from view in order for it to be granted cover. That said, I have a hard time believing that guants and stealers are bulky enough to hide TMC behind. The only models large enough to provide cover for TMC are warriors and Tyrant guard and to do so, you have to pack them together to form a wall...which makes you vulnerable to blast weapons.

As for outflanking genestealers, Space Mech armies have an answer to that...a 35 point rhino. I see it happen too often where the stealers out flank and pop a rhino only to have the squad easily make thier LDR 8 check and then unload into the exposed stealers. Trading a 200+ stealer squad for a 35 point rhino is a win-win situation for mech.

The cover depends on who you play against. I've had players argue that their Carnifex gets cover from a swarm of Genestealers, but regardless...

Yes, the Space Marines have an answer...sort of. Those Marines unload, and get the crap chewed out of them by Rending Stealers...and in most games, opponents can't afford to put 200+ points on each flank, just to watch for Outflankers.

5th Edition crippled the ability for assaulting units to consolidate into another assault...but it did give the ability to run to all units. I'd say the thought that assaulting armies have been nerfed by 5th is quite moot...looking at tournament results...Tyranids are still QUITE competitive.

Upgrade/tweak, but no codex creep.

Which tournaments would those be? Nids got manhandled in 'Ard Boyz, as far as I'm aware. I haven't seen any RTT results, I don't think.

I'll relent a little on my earlier statements and note that Tyranids peak around the 1500 point mark where they're okay-ish. After you max out on MC's, though, it's all downhill. Still, you're forced into a MC-heavy list because everything else is crap. That's not right at all.

A few points:

MC have to be 50% covered to get the save. It's in the rulebook.

Most Tyranid tournament armies you see are still of the Nidzilla-y variety, which aren't assault armies.

Outflanking 'stealers really aren't that hard to deal with.

Lictors are terrible (in the "bad" sense of the word).

Ignore him, he played against Nids for the first time four months ago. He has no idea how far they fell since 4th.

I'm not sure what this agruement over how decent nids are at playing is on the forum new nids codex cover but whatever this is dakka. Nids do need their speed back, and other winning list that aren't TMC spams my friends are getting mad at me for only using nidzilla, but like stated b4 it's the only way to be remotely compeditive.

While tyranids definitely need some help, this thread is wishlisty as all hell. Toughness 8 fleeting deep striking carnifexes with +d6 attacks from crushing claws? For less? Really? Really?

The carnifex doesn't need to get better. It's overly tough for 130 points. No comparable unit in points and role has the same ability to shrug off damage. What it needs is a better core to surround it. Who cares if they pour fire into the carnifex when you have another 1600 points of good termagaunts and hormugaunts backing them up? Why can't they make it to combat when useful lictors and raveners are tying up their long range support? When cost effective genestealers are dicing up their closerange firepower units?

The carnifex is the elephant in the room that doesn't need fixing. It's just the giant dangerous target surrounded by useless stacks of things that can be ignored too easily.

ShumaGorath wrote:While tyranids definitely need some help, this thread is wishlisty as all hell

And this suprises you...because

wyomingfox wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:While tyranids definitely need some help, this thread is wishlisty as all hell

And this suprises you...because

Just an observation. Certainly doesn't surprise me at all.

ShumaGorath wrote:The carnifex is the elephant in the room that doesn't need fixing.

It would be easier to agree with this statement IF they provide a viable means of destroying transports that does not involve CC. Attacking transports in 5th is bad...unless you enjoy passengers owning you during thier upcoming turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Che-Vito wrote:Yes, the Space Marines have an answer...sort of. Those Marines unload...

...and shoot the Rending Stealers off the board (at least that has been my experience )

and in most games, opponents can't afford to put 200+ points on each flank, just to watch for Outflankers.

If they are pawning 200 pt stealer squads... they can

Platuan4th wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Then how will GW sell loads and loads of new models to existing players?

Making Stealers Elites again.


I keed, I keed!

Genestealers have never been Elites in an official Tyranids codex.

What are YOU smoking?

Che-Vito wrote:Outflanking Genestealers, deepstriking Lictors that can tie up units, and tons of large units that can provide cover for Carnifexes....Tyranids are absolutely still competitive...(I won't deny that they need tweaks and changes, as do many 3rd/4th edition armies).

Wait, did you just call Lictors competitive?



This thread is apparently filled to the brim with ignorant Imperial players.

LunaHound wrote:Surely large creature takes larger strides / steps then a small human?

surely a sweep / a swing from large creature can hit multiple targets at once?

Does big stupid Elephant outrun a Cheetah? Or a Giraffe?

No.

Big isn't fast, just big.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Does big stupid Elephant outrun a Cheetah? Or a Giraffe?

No.

Big isn't fast, just big.

Both a Cheetah and a Giraffe are far, far faster than a man and would prolly be beasts. Is an elephant faster than a man? Ohhhh yeah.

Big isn't fast, just faster than you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:While tyranids definitely need some help, this thread is wishlisty as all hell. Toughness 8 fleeting deep striking carnifexes with +d6 attacks from crushing claws? For less? Really? Really?

I don't think anyone proposed all those changes together. I understand that some people are bitter about them not getting their codex redone, but why do some people feel the need to come in this thread and piss all over the Tyranid parade?

RustyKnight wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Does big stupid Elephant outrun a Cheetah? Or a Giraffe?

No.

Big isn't fast, just big.

Both a Cheetah and a Giraffe are far, far faster than a man and would prolly be beasts. Is an elephant faster than a man? Ohhhh yeah.

Big isn't fast, just faster than you.

the danger of the internet is that people can check facts on you rather easily.

Elephants top speed is a mere 25 MPH. Less than the human top speed of 29 mph. Elephants achieve this speed on four legs.

Carnifex are science fiction super monsters, maybe they can run 60mph. It doens't matter. The movement phase does ot represent top speed, it represents the speed things tend to move while observing their surroundings and keeping their weapon ready to fire. Big monsters with massive long guns likely tread carefully, while scanning the area for something to shoot.

I don't think anyone proposed all those changes together. I understand that some people are bitter about them not getting their codex redone, but why do some people feel the need to come in this thread and piss all over the Tyranid parade?

Because there's a difference between constructive and interesting ideas and wishlisting. I played tyranids starting when their 4th ed codex came out and ending 2 months after the marine 5th ed came out. The carnifexes were never the problem.

Also why do people keep quoting that first sentence and ignoring the body?

Both a Cheetah and a Giraffe are far, far faster than a man and would prolly be beasts. Is an elephant faster than a man? Ohhhh yeah.

Big isn't fast, just faster than you.

Bipedal locomotion in the way we do it is pretty awful for moving quickly over terrain that is the least bit flat. The carnifex is bipedal. So are all walkers, wraithlords, and almost everything else with the monstrous creature or walker rules. They also have considerably more bulk. They should move faster than a human is capable, but then so should every single vehicle in the game. It doesn't scale that way and theres no way they can move at the speed of a land vehicle on flat ground.

Broken Loose wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Then how will GW sell loads and loads of new models to existing players?

Making Stealers Elites again.


I keed, I keed!

Genestealers have never been Elites in an official Tyranids codex.

What are YOU smoking?

Not in a CODEX, no, but they were Elites in the 3rd edition BBB list.

Platuan4th wrote:

Broken Loose wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Then how will GW sell loads and loads of new models to existing players?

Making Stealers Elites again.


I keed, I keed!

Genestealers have never been Elites in an official Tyranids codex.

What are YOU smoking?

Not in a CODEX, no, but they were Elites in the 3rd edition BBB list.

I'd be okay with them moving to elites if they got their power weapons back. Heck, I'd pack up their boxes and load their trucks.

I'd also be okay with the move if Broodlords had a "Genestealers may count as Troops" option. Can you imagine the Stealershock possibilities with 9 FOC slots available to them? I think we can expect a decent (2-3 point) drop in Stealers' base cost, so that would be a very intriguing army.

avantgarde wrote:Ignore him, he played against Nids for the first time four months ago. He has no idea how far they fell since 4th.

Well comparing every piece of Tyranid related printing that exists, (which I happen to own), and looking at the new rules for 5th Edition, I can say with confidence that Tyranids don't need some huge uber killer Carnifex to win games for them. Hell, I hope they keep the Carnifex the same or nerf it, and upgrade the units around it to help kill off Nidzilla...not because it's unbeatable, but because it takes very little creativity to play, and gets old to play against!

I'd like to see some more interesting lists from Tyranid players, and ones that can competitively use the idea of a Tyranid swarm...in common use!

Shep wrote:

RustyKnight wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Does big stupid Elephant outrun a Cheetah? Or a Giraffe?

No.

Big isn't fast, just big.

Both a Cheetah and a Giraffe are far, far faster than a man and would prolly be beasts. Is an elephant faster than a man? Ohhhh yeah.

Big isn't fast, just faster than you.

Elephants top speed is a mere 25 MPH. Less than the human top speed of 29 mph. Elephants achieve this speed on four legs.

Carnifex are science fiction super monsters, maybe they can run 60mph. It doens't matter. The movement phase does ot represent top speed, it represents the speed things tend to move while observing their surroundings and keeping their weapon ready to fire. Big monsters with massive long guns likely tread carefully, while scanning the area for something to shoot.

Yup. Tho if we were modeling this via rules, and taking their Init into account, then Carnifex would be best served by making them Slow and Purposeful.

Shep wrote: the danger of the internet is that people can check facts on you rather easily.

Hmm, I was wrong. I assumed that elephants ran faster than people, my mistake. I suppose I should have been disingenous and compared an elephant to the slowest land animal.

Shep wrote:The movement phase does ot represent top speed, it represents the speed things tend to move while observing their surroundings and keeping their weapon ready to fire. Big monsters with massive long guns likely tread carefully, while scanning the area for something to shoot.

I understand. I also never picture giant psycho killer bugs as being the slow and cautious type. Especially not when they have no guns. Of course, in order to represent that, they would have to do it for all mindless psychopaths.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Also why do people keep quoting that first sentence and ignoring the body?

Nothing was wrong in the body. That opening line was a problem.

Shep wrote:Elephants top speed is a mere 25 MPH. Less than the human top speed of 29 mph. Elephants achieve this speed on four legs.

Monty Python wrote:
Bridgekeeper: What... is the [land]-speed velocity of an unladen [elephant]?
Arthur: What do you mean? An African or European [elephant]?

To be fair though Shep, is that the average top speed of elephants vs. the average top speed of humans, or is that the average top speed of elephant vs an atypical top speed of humans. (I know the answer and on average an elephant can run faster than a human)

The real point is that we are arguing about "fantastical" fictional beings.