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ShumaGorath wrote:It is, but it's a somewhat safe investment which can be fairly devastating if used correctly. A lot of heavy choices like russes or raiders tend to get one or two turns of use, and are then shaked or destroyed for the rest of the game. The tyrannofex takes quite a bit of punishment without being stifled.

If my tentative math is correct, it seems there's absolutely no point in trying to shoot a tyrannofex at all. They're essentially unkillable barring incredible good fortune and assuming a moderately skilled tyranid player (who will know to destroy things like command squads and any tanks with the plethora of deep striking options available).

The new tyranids seemingly excel at surgical removal of key units, with things like the Death Leaper making it child's play to decapitate Guard armies by robbing them of regimental standards, advisors (Fleet officers are bound to be popular for trying to stall tyranid reserves) and Orders, at minimal risk. Might be worthwhile not to bother with a CCS in the first place, or to simply take the cheapest one imaginable, since their survivability is going to be minimal. The same appears true for shooty vehicles other than Valkyries/Vendettas, artillery tanks and Russes will just be sitting ducks effortlessly swatted aside by burrowing trygons or drop-podding carnifexes.

It's going to be an uphill struggle for Guard to try to survive, since they'll be outclassed in close combat even worse, and it seems they'll also lose any shooting engagement as well. I'll probably switch to a suicide strategy, loading up on Ogryns and valkyrie-mounted Veterans packing plasma, but I doubt I'll be effective.

When do you roll for Toxic Miasma in regards to Initiative/Combat order?

Oh, and since actual point costs are disallowed... What kind of percentage increase in cost are we looking at for giving a Gaunt a Devourer? To get not only two extra shots but an additional 6" of range seems like a really good upgrade to give em.

Man, that Swarmlord looks just phenomenal. With 30 Poison Hormagaunts (using Warp Scream and Preferred Enemy) you're inflicting 40 Wounds on the assault at I5. Not too shabby.

I also really like the Doom of Malan'Tai. Seems to me that guy is perfect to put in a spore capsule but it might be a little difficult to ensure he doesn't die after doing his thing; is it possible to attach the Alpha Warrior to him?

Aduro wrote:When do you roll for Toxic Miasma in regards to Initiative/Combat order?

Oh, and since actual point costs are disallowed... What kind of percentage increase in cost are we looking at for giving a Gaunt a Devourer? To get not only two extra shots but an additional 6" of range seems like a really good upgrade to give em.

6 pts min , 10 pts full. *wink

sirisaacnuton wrote:I had a question about the rundown posted on the first page. Are the Venomthropes in it? I feel like I've read their rules, but I can't seem to find them on the summary. Am I just missing something because it's late?

Oops >< its added back into elites , sorry was too tired .

Agamemnon2 wrote:The new tyranids seemingly excel at surgical removal of key units, with things like the Death Leaper making it child's play to decapitate Guard armies by robbing them of regimental standards, advisors (Fleet officers are bound to be popular for trying to stall tyranid reserves) and Orders, at minimal risk. Might be worthwhile not to bother with a CCS in the first place, or to simply take the cheapest one imaginable, since their survivability is going to be minimal.

Or you could buy a Chimera?

Aduro wrote:When do you roll for Toxic Miasma in regards to Initiative/Combat order?

Oh, and since actual point costs are disallowed... What kind of percentage increase in cost are we looking at for giving a Gaunt a Devourer? To get not only two extra shots but an additional 6" of range seems like a really good upgrade to give em.

Miasma is rolled at the end of every player turn.

Devourer doubles the cost of a Gaunt.

If my tentative math is correct, it seems there's absolutely no point in trying to shoot a tyrannofex at all. They're essentially unkillable

What am I missing now? 6 wounds and a 2+ save classifies as essentially unkillable? Because of the chance it will regen a wound or two the following turn? The Trygon and Mawloc can buy regeneration too. Does that make them unkillable also? Seriously, nearly all of the units people are salivating about cost 250 to 300 points each. I'd reserve the whine about incredible Tyranid armies to the point where we actually see you know...army lists.

I don't think they are unkillable, but there are a lot of other potentially better targets to shoot at. It's kind of like a monolith in that respect.

Therion wrote:

If my tentative math is correct, it seems there's absolutely no point in trying to shoot a tyrannofex at all. They're essentially unkillable

What am I missing now? 6 wounds and a 2+ save classifies as essentially unkillable? Because of the chance it will regen a wound or two the following turn? The Trygon and Mawloc can buy regeneration too. Does that make them unkillable also? Seriously, nearly all of the units people are salivating about cost 250 to 300 points each. I'd reserve the whine about incredible Tyranid armies to the point where we actually see you know...army lists.

Nothing a sqaud of fireknife equiped crisis suits can't break. On a deep strike you can get in rapid fire range, fire 6 ap 2 shots in it's face and then fire a bunch of missiles to finish it off. Even if it does survive, regeneration requires a roll of a 6. Sure... if multiable rolls are made the chance goes up.. but in the average case 5 dice would give a ratio of 5 to 25 chance of failure.. which in most cases would bring about 2-3 wounds..

Wow, drop podded tyranids...poor tau.

I don't think they are unkillable, but there are a lot of other potentially better targets to shoot at. It's kind of like a monolith in that respect.

The long range weapon option available for it is the capsule cannon, making it hit a vehicle once per turn with S10. A very expensive poor man's railgun.

If you want it to do more than that it has to come much closer, and within 18"24" there's already a bunch of things that can kill it like any other big bug. As for Marines that play with the SW rules: Jaws of the World Wolf vs I1 is never a bad thing, and neither are las/plas Razorbacks and Multi-Melta speeders, or things like Thunder Wolf Cavalry.

I take it that with the Monolith comparison you're saying the Tyrannofex isn't nearly as dangerous as his friends but when sitting in cover in a corner is so tough to kill that it's just better leave it there and take the few S10 hits to the chin while wiping out all the other Tyranid models from the table? Yes, when it's played that way, I agree.

Did I miss something, or is the Tyrannofex the only unit in this Codex with 2+ armor? If this is correct, missile launchers just got a hell of a lot better.. wounding MCs on 2+ while ignoring their saves *and* blasting hordes with frag templates? It's good against the big guys, the little guys, and even the middleweights, since a krak missile will inflict ID against Warriors, Spore Pods, and other toughness 4 models. I'm sure glad I went the Typhoon route with my Land Speeders instead of the MM/HF pattern...

Fetterkey wrote:Did I miss something, or is the Tyrannofex the only unit in this Codex with 2+ armor? If this is correct, missile launchers just got a hell of a lot better.. wounding MCs on 2+ while ignoring their saves *and* blasting hordes with frag templates? It's good against the big guys, the little guys, and even the middleweights, since a krak missile will inflict ID against Warriors, Spore Pods, and other toughness 4 models. I'm sure glad I went the Typhoon route with my Land Speeders instead of the MM/HF pattern...

Seems like it , and in place of 2+ save , many of those units have regens instead.

Why do i get the feeling that most nid matchups is about getting folks out of transports to charge them...

The same appears true for shooty vehicles other than Valkyries/Vendettas, artillery tanks and Russes will just be sitting ducks effortlessly swatted aside by burrowing trygons or drop-podding carnifexes.

Isn't that what inquistors and plasma-vets are for? Anything that gets through eats 6 plasma shots...

6 plasma shots wont kill anything on its own mate.
You will need on average of 12-15 to start hurting trygon's.

Jeez, that's a lot of T6 being thrown around. Sure they lost Eternal Warrior, but there's so little that can instagib them....

Fetterkey wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Might be worthwhile not to bother with a CCS in the first place, or to simply take the cheapest one imaginable, since their survivability is going to be minimal.

Or you could buy a Chimera?

Which would be torn through like it was made of tissue paper, buying the command squad one more turn at most.

Therion wrote:

If my tentative math is correct, it seems there's absolutely no point in trying to shoot a tyrannofex at all. They're essentially unkillable

What am I missing now? 6 wounds and a 2+ save classifies as essentially unkillable? Because of the chance it will regen a wound or two the following turn? The Trygon and Mawloc can buy regeneration too. Does that make them unkillable also?

The Trygon and Mawloc aren't 2+ saves, which already helps the whateverfex quite a bit. Guard BS is bad enough that simply ticking six woulds of a T6 beast is pretty horribly difficult (15 lascannon shots, assuming no cover saves), regeneration makes it a lot worse.

My big question: Does it specify what the termagaunts spawned out of a Tervigon are to be armed with?

Because I'd love to spawn squads with devourers...

Agamemnon2 wrote:
The Trygon and Mawloc aren't 2+ saves, which already helps the whateverfex quite a bit. Guard BS is bad enough that simply ticking six woulds of a T6 beast is pretty horribly difficult (15 lascannon shots, assuming no cover saves), regeneration makes it a lot worse.

Guard BS is essentially 4 anymore, given Vet squad troops and twin linked las on Vendettas. This thing is slow and won't be a threat for several turns (even worse if it fails it's instinctive one turn). Regardless, I've seen most Guard armies pack 20ish las cannons at essentially BS 4. It will only take 11ish of those to kill this thing in a single turn (If they bother shooting it).

So it appears mechanised is the way to go, with expensive veterans carted around in Vendettas. Still, since that's not what I started my army for, nor is it in any way an archetype I'm keen on, I think I'll stick with boots on the ground, infantry platoons and other foot troops, because among other reasons, Vendettas are a pain to transport for those poor plebs without a reasonably priced access to Battlefoam.

I'll lose a gakload of games, but in the end, so what? I'm already a laughing stock, what's a few more humiliations?

Agamemnon2 wrote:So it appears mechanised is the way to go, with expensive veterans carted around in Vendettas. I think I'll stick with boots on the ground, infantry platoons and other foot troops, because among other reasons, Vendettas are a pain to transport for those poor plebs without a reasonably priced access to Battlefoam.

Well...5th edition is mech unfortunately. I say unfortunately because sitting your marines to the side most of the game and moving metal boxes around is only fun for so long. I still have hope for my all foot SW army....but dunno.

My big question is is the Parasite of Mortex able to join units or is he forbidden. Since he's just jump infantry i'm hoping he can cause if he can't he'll have to be very cheap to make him useful for running since he'll be easy to pick off

Hulksmash wrote:My big question is is the Parasite of Mortex able to join units or is he forbidden. Since he's just jump infantry i'm hoping he can cause if he can't he'll have to be very cheap to make him useful for running since he'll be easy to pick off

Yes, he's a regular Independent Character.

Woot! depending on his point cost (since it appears that Alpha Warriors can't take wings) I think i've got myself my second HQ Choice

So it appears mechanised is the way to go, with expensive veterans carted around in Vendettas. Still, since that's not what I started my army for, nor is it in any way an archetype I'm keen on,

Sadly you're probably in the minority there. Plas/melta vets in a flying predator annihilator is a pretty standard configuration. So people will probably tell you to utilize them a lot. I feel for you though, I refuse to buy assault terminators for my marines. It's just not the force I wanted. Try investing in special weapon squads or ogryn for counteracting the trygons. Plasma or giant fists work out pretty well statistically as long as you give the ogryns a commissar.

Woot! depending on his point cost (since it appears that Alpha Warriors can't take wings) I think i've got myself my second HQ Choice

Keep in mind he doesn't ignore armor saves and can be instakilled by a power fist. So watch out if you think he'll be a close combat terror. He's amazing if you can hit a guard or guardian squad though. All those free rippers.

He's got rending claws and instant kills multi-wound characters when he rends. yes he can be singled out by powerfists but that's where you just have to get creative with how you use him. Adding him to a squad of hormies or a larger squad of gargoyles and there won't be a powerfist left to swing

Hulksmash wrote:Woot! depending on his point cost (since it appears that Alpha Warriors can't take wings) I think i've got myself my second HQ Choice

He is the same cost as 4 terminators.

Alpha Warriors seem pretty good. Natural T5, give it two sets of scything and throw it in a gaunt brood......pretty cheap too.

Yeah the Terrafex is a incredible unit. Add in that he has a good immunity versus HellFire he is incredibly difficult to deal with.

In regards to being really tough and hard to kill as far as the tervigon and such go...Everything big is now very vulnerable to wraithguard and d-cannons. I routinely play with 20 wraithguard and always hated how nids became immune to instant death because of that =(.

Oh well, now that I am playing nids as well I suppose warriors with 2 boneswords will have to do. Seems like nids are the best at taking out nids eh?