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thompie12 wrote: i finished 1.
(I know it isn't very sharp but my digital camera is pretty old i hope it is still good though)

Well, that's good job, perhaps you should greenstuff some arrows to replace the fleur de lys. For the heads I agree with CT GAMER, horns on the helmets and perhaps plastic daemonette heads for squad leaders.

Go on, it's stylish!

If you want to keep the female shape and size, you can always say that their muscles are just much denser than normal SM muscles, giving them the same strength in less bulk.

Edit: Oh, and I found the female marines thread I was talking about earlier with all the fluff and conversions for Doctor Thunders female marines.

I wonder how Doc is these days?

BaronIveagh wrote:So, granted, she's half as strong. And weighs less then half as much.

Because muscle mass is what gives strength; that's exactly what I've been saying. Yes there are diminishing returns past a certain weight (and exponential returns past a certain weight) but it's always a positive correlation.

Trying to find the weightlifter who looks "the most like a space marine" isn't really the point of this exercise (although no woman can bench anything near what Kennelly can, so what's the point of bringing him up?) The point is that the most accomplished weightlifters have huge amounts of muscle on their torsos, that those most accomplished in bench pressing have huge amounts of pectoral, arm, and back muscle, and specialists in other forms of strength training have large amounts of muscle in the place in their body where it is most relevant, and that none of these people are women and when you look solely among women the most accomplished are still heavily muscled in whatever area requires the most use by them.

But say we do pretend Ryan Kennelly is a space marine; how does Florczyk's 220 lb bench press keep her in the running here? It's a quarter of what Kennelly can do.

SilverMK2 wrote:If you want to keep the female shape and size, you can always say that their muscles are just much denser than normal SM muscles, giving them the same strength in less bulk.

Why not use this special super muscle on every space marine? In fact, why not use it on the female space marines, and then still make them as bulky as a male space marine, so now they can be three times as strong? The Imperium doesn't care if they look "feminine".

Orkeosaurus wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:So, granted, she's half as strong. And weighs less then half as much.

Because muscle mass is what gives strength; that's exactly what I've been saying. Yes there are diminishing returns past a certain weight (and exponential returns past a certain weight) but it's always a positive correlation.

Trying to find the weightlifter who looks "the most like a space marine" isn't really the point of this exercise (although no woman can bench anything near what Kennelly can, so what's the point of bringing him up?) The point is that the most accomplished weightlifters have huge amounts of muscle on their torsos, that those most accomplished in bench pressing have huge amounts of pectoral, arm, and back muscle, and specialists in other forms of strength training have large amounts of muscle in the place in their body where it is most relevant, and that none of these people are women and when you look solely among women the most accomplished are still heavily muscled in whatever area requires the most use by them.

But say we do pretend Ryan Kennelly is a space marine; how does Florczyk's 220 lb bench press keep her in the running here? It's a quarter of what Kennelly can do.

SilverMK2 wrote:If you want to keep the female shape and size, you can always say that their muscles are just much denser than normal SM muscles, giving them the same strength in less bulk.

Why not use this special super muscle on every space marine? In fact, why not use it on the female space marines, and then still make them as bulky as a male space marine, so now they can be three times as strong? The Imperium doesn't care if they look "feminine".

Orky, I might point out that canon space marines would have to be strong out of all proportion to their size anyway. (Primarchs impossibly so. Rogal Dorn crosses a room and connects with a blow faster then the Space marines standing there can track it. If the description of him is right, he'd weigh over 1500 pounds. For him to have that sort of acceleration, he would probably be able to pick up and throw a Baneblade. His muscles are not our muscles.)

Primarchs are not the focus of the thread, and there is very little we can necessarily deduce of space marines from their consideration (they frequently display abilities as far beyond those of a space marine as a space marine's are to a human, and I think it's been said as much in writing somewhere), but even if space marine muscle is far, far stronger than human muscle (my assumption would be that it is to a significant degree, at least) that only stresses the importance of the muscle being present in large enough quantities for all space marines, no matter their sex.

Simply put.... ew. Female chaos marines... are we making renegade sisters or something? I guess its an interesting idea, but like female orcs, its an idea I think best left unexplored...

I dunno, Orky, it still seems to me like you're confusing type's I and II muscle fibers.

(Type I are the fibers that give you long distance endurance, and tend to be smaller. Type II are the ones for short bursts of intense activity and give body builders their bulk)

While being big is impressive, Type I are more important to soldiers. Super or otherwise.

But women don't have more Type 1 muscle. Men are pretty consistently better at long distance running. Women are merely equal(ish) in that regard, and rather lacking in Type 2. The space marine's role as shock troops also puts them as needing Type 2 muscle more than a regular soldier would, they are often sprinting, jumping, ducking, and fighting enemies in close combat.

The central issue is that space marines are never inferior troops. A space marine would not be made with as significant of a weakness as having 2/3 the short-burst strength of a normal space marine, not with the huge investment being made into their training, their strength-enhancing modification, their powered armor, their bolters and ammo, their other grab bag of implants, their transports and fleets, etc.

But, if I may ask, "why not?" Why not modify their female initiates to be as strong (in every way) as the males, with all the muscle mass that entails? They have no reason to do anything but outfit them with as powerful a body as they can. If they wanted space marines to have less muscle mass they would simply have made the male space marines hold to this form, but they obviously felt that to have them built as they are was best for their role.

Orkeosaurus wrote:But women don't have more Type 1 muscle. Men are pretty consistently better at long distance running. Women are merely equal(ish) in that regard, and rather lacking in Type 2. The space marine's role as shock troops also puts them as needing Type 2 muscle more than a regular soldier would, they are often sprinting, jumping, ducking, and fighting enemies in close combat.

The central issue is that space marines are never inferior troops. A space marine would not be made with as significant of a weakness as having 2/3 the short-burst strength of a normal space marine, not with the huge investment being made into their training, their strength-enhancing modification, their powered armor, their bolters and ammo, their other grab bag of implants, their transports and fleets, etc.

But, if I may ask, "why not?" Why not modify their female initiates to be as strong (in every way) as the males, with all the muscle mass that entails? They have no reason to do anything but outfit them with as powerful a body as they can. If they wanted space marines to have less muscle mass they would simply have made the male space marines hold to this form, but they obviously felt that to have them built as they are was best for their role.

Except that space marines were not originally meant to be a rapid strike force. Remember that they were originally designed to be conquering legions, some of whom specialized in siege engineering, which is a very protracted sort of combat that favors endurance over brute strength. Your examples above are through the lens of the current era in 40k, not the Great Crusade (when Land raiders were common enough to be used by the Imperial Army).

But males don't have any less endurance. If Olympic marathon results are a measure, they're still slightly better than females, and more importantly, much better in other areas.

I also assumed that these space marines would have been created after the great crusade, in which case their modern role is what would be considered for their viability.

"Infantry might be a little harder than most people realize. If a girl could "hang" then I wouldn't have a problem serving with them. But honestly, knowing what I know from having served for eight years in it, I don't think that that is going to happen.
Infantry can be grueling and I've seen strong men break. In fact, they all break at some point, it's the getting back up thing and continuing that sets them apart. I could see a woman get to that point of breaking, but I don't see her getting back up."
-Yahoo answers on why women aren't soldiers.

Women don't have the mental toughness of a man. If I am correct the process of becoming a space marine is a painful process and only the toughest even make it(and nobody bring up the point that women have babies....that's way different than becoming a space marine). Now as far as creativity goes, go for it, no one can tell you how to make your army but as far as fluff goes...women as a space marine(or Guard).....nope just don't see it...

How did you fit the shoulder pads on that Female CSM. I love it.

Kazerkinelite wrote:"Infantry might be a little harder than most people realize. If a girl could "hang" then I wouldn't have a problem serving with them. But honestly, knowing what I know from having served for eight years in it, I don't think that that is going to happen.
Infantry can be grueling and I've seen strong men break. In fact, they all break at some point, it's the getting back up thing and continuing that sets them apart. I could see a woman get to that point of breaking, but I don't see her getting back up."
-Yahoo answers on why women aren't soldiers.

Women don't have the mental toughness of a man. If I am correct the process of becoming a space marine is a painful process and only the toughest even make it(and nobody bring up the point that women have babies....that's way different than becoming a space marine). Now as far as creativity goes, go for it, no one can tell you how to make your army but as far as fluff goes...women as a space marine(or Guard).....nope just don't see it...

Please explain Jennie Hodgers (aka Albert Cashier) then. Surely, if women break in combat, she would not have survived forty battles under Grant, including his Vicksburg campaign. she would have fled screaming, instead of on being taken being taken prisoner, overpowering her guard and escaping to return to combat duty.

Also, please feel free to let Sgt Leigh Ann Hester know she should have broken rather then be awarded her silver star for close combat, or Major Philippa Tattersall doesn't deserve her Green Beret, if you really feel that way.

To sum up: Female C/SM have not happened in the 10k+ years C/SM have been around. As far as we know. Can he make whatever the hell he wants to? Sure why not? I may just make those sandwich marines. As long as you have a decent explanation (and I don't mean like a novel, even a paragraph is good) that fits in the universe without being totally out there why can you not just do it? Female chaos, when the gods can do pretty much whatever they want, seem almost likely. Oh and don't give me the whole "But its a perversion of humanity when the gods blah blah blah". Maybe Slaanesh/Tzeentch/whathaveyou decided to jerk some people around one dy by making them female, just for funzies. Fiction is just that, untrue. SM are pretty darn near impossible anyways so its not a huge stretch to envision female ones.

Oh a good way to end any argument 'bout stuff like this: Space Orks? Oh yeah, they are essentially a fungus that reproduces through spores but they are sentient and may have been genetically created as a survivor race thousands or more years ago. They also speak about as well as your average drunk englishman. WTF?!

Can we stop the fluff argument?
That's not the point here.

Which is why I said he can do w/e the hell he wants

BaronIveagh wrote:Please explain Jennie Hodgers (aka Albert Cashier) then. Surely, if women break in combat, she would not have survived forty battles under Grant, including his Vicksburg campaign. she would have fled screaming, instead of on being taken being taken prisoner, overpowering her guard and escaping to return to combat duty.

Also, please feel free to let Sgt Leigh Ann Hester know she should have broken rather then be awarded her silver star for close combat, or Major Philippa Tattersall doesn't deserve her Green Beret, if you really feel that way.

I think from a psychological standpoint I think I'd be more worried about the initiates being twelves years old!

CrazyThang wrote:Oh and don't give me the whole "But its a perversion of humanity when the gods blah blah blah".

I was saying pretty much the opposite, actually; turning male chaos marines into female chaos marines is just really lame, as a "curse" or "gift" or anything, really. I mean, turning them into androgynous snake-people is up Slaanesh's alley, and turning a chaos lord who gets too cocky into a helpless little girl is probably in line with Tzeentch's sense of humor, but just making them into equally powerful female versions of themself is... "so what?". They're the dark gods of chaos, they're not supposed to be going around just doing really mundane stuff.

"Bwhaha! You have failed me for the last time, Lord Nelfarious, and now you will pay the price! Watch as your precious european features become... ASIAN!"

Oh a good way to end any argument 'bout stuff like this: Space Orks? Oh yeah, they are essentially a fungus that reproduces through spores but they are sentient and may have been genetically created as a survivor race thousands or more years ago. They also speak about as well as your average drunk englishman. WTF?!

Orks speek rite, stoopid, da oomies iz wot speeks rong.

Well lameness (word?) aside, it probably wouldn't happen but it is kind of a shoddy argument because... well a couple reasons. I have no idea how a fictional chaos god thinks and also maybe... I honestly don't know. Maybe you can see where I'm coming from with that but I guess I'm trying to say not everything has to have 5 heads, ooze pus and organs, (can't think of a khorne one), or have like one breast and a bird leg. Just sayin' sometimes [chaos god] gets bored and just wants to mess with people. Your example is awesome btw

Hehe. A legion of 12 year old girls wearing horned helmets that are way too big for them would be funny.

Funny or... something to give you nightmares as they tear into your lines, ripping your men apart with chain-axes as they scream "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!" in high-pitched voices?

Also I would cry if they beat me. Oh wait I'm Eldar, little girls totally can't beat Eldar.... like all the time...

Once the little girls hit Eldar lines they won't be able to tell friend from foe!

Because of our superior tactics right?


also any more pics?

EDIT for clarification: of your models, not 12 year old girls.

In truth, it isn't possible for there to be female Space Marines, is it?

CrazyThang wrote:also any more pics?

EDIT for clarification: of your models, not 12 year old girls.

That conversion is much more effective than I thought it would be, although I wonder if those shoulder pads aren't going to seriously limit your posing options.

As for the background arguments, all I'll say is this: IMHO one of the worst aspects of this hobby is how readily people will try to control what another person chooses to do with their extremely expensive toy soldiers.

If you have something to say then please, say it. Don't be shy. Tell the person - or people - you think are embodying the "worst aspects of the hobby" that you feel this way about them, and put passive-aggressive insults behind you.

whitedragon wrote:How did you fit the shoulder pads on that Female CSM. I love it.

I cut the original shoulder pads, and used greenstuff to get the shoulderpads on.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kazerkinelite wrote:"Infantry might be a little harder than most people realize. If a girl could "hang" then I wouldn't have a problem serving with them. But honestly, knowing what I know from having served for eight years in it, I don't think that that is going to happen.
Infantry can be grueling and I've seen strong men break. In fact, they all break at some point, it's the getting back up thing and continuing that sets them apart. I could see a woman get to that point of breaking, but I don't see her getting back up."
-Yahoo answers on why women aren't soldiers.

Women don't have the mental toughness of a man. If I am correct the process of becoming a space marine is a painful process and only the toughest even make it(and nobody bring up the point that women have babies....that's way different than becoming a space marine). Now as far as creativity goes, go for it, no one can tell you how to make your army but as far as fluff goes...women as a space marine(or Guard).....nope just don't see it...

Please explain Jennie Hodgers (aka Albert Cashier) then. Surely, if women break in combat, she would not have survived forty battles under Grant, including his Vicksburg campaign. she would have fled screaming, instead of on being taken being taken prisoner, overpowering her guard and escaping to return to combat duty.

Also, please feel free to let Sgt Leigh Ann Hester know she should have broken rather then be awarded her silver star for close combat, or Major Philippa Tattersall doesn't deserve her Green Beret, if you really feel that way.

3 women who did something noteworthy...big deal...for everyone of them there's been hundreds of men who have done the same thing.and plus Jennie Hodges lived as man and recognized herself as a man...not a women. And like I said I don't care what people do with their models, anyone can do what they want.

Kazerkinelite wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kazerkinelite wrote:"Infantry might be a little harder than most people realize. If a girl could "hang" then I wouldn't have a problem serving with them. But honestly, knowing what I know from having served for eight years in it, I don't think that that is going to happen.
Infantry can be grueling and I've seen strong men break. In fact, they all break at some point, it's the getting back up thing and continuing that sets them apart. I could see a woman get to that point of breaking, but I don't see her getting back up."
-Yahoo answers on why women aren't soldiers.

Women don't have the mental toughness of a man. If I am correct the process of becoming a space marine is a painful process and only the toughest even make it(and nobody bring up the point that women have babies....that's way different than becoming a space marine). Now as far as creativity goes, go for it, no one can tell you how to make your army but as far as fluff goes...women as a space marine(or Guard).....nope just don't see it...

Please explain Jennie Hodgers (aka Albert Cashier) then. Surely, if women break in combat, she would not have survived forty battles under Grant, including his Vicksburg campaign. she would have fled screaming, instead of on being taken being taken prisoner, overpowering her guard and escaping to return to combat duty.

Also, please feel free to let Sgt Leigh Ann Hester know she should have broken rather then be awarded her silver star for close combat, or Major Philippa Tattersall doesn't deserve her Green Beret, if you really feel that way.

3 women who did something noteworthy...big deal...for everyone of them there's been hundreds of men who have done the same thing.and plus Jennie Hodges lived as man and recognized herself as a man...not a women. And like I said I don't care what people do with their models, anyone can do what they want.

I have been being polite on this issue until now. (and I really don't care about what other people do with their minis either)

I've seen both men and women die for their country. And while I'm sure that hundreds of men have died for every woman, they all gave their lives. Every time I hear some moron tell me they weren't good soldiers, I think of this Lt I knew down in Brazil who told me the same thing. A week later he got himself and half his men killed in an ambush planned and executed by the women of the village he had been on his way to burn.

So endeth the lesson.