Fantasy 8th Edition Rumor

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**Kroothawk**

JohnHwangDD wrote:No need for any salt - all 6 of them have been well-rumored before.

All 6 of them? Name and screaming bell were new to me, can't believe another screaming bell is in the starter.

**Flashman**

No, I can't believe it either. Unless it's a simplified Screaming Bell like the AoBR Dread is simplified, GW are kind of shooting themselves in the foot with this one. I'm not complaining though, as I will happily accept it into my ranks if it looks any good.

**GMMStudios**

Was chatting via email with the local club and some things hit me. I will just copy paste:
By the way have any of you seen the new fantasy rumors. Im kinda liking them. I have a very strong feeling war of the ring was partial a test of the waters for what is coming. Im not sure if I like the idea of TEN wide, but the fact that there will be at least 20+ dice being thrown per unit means the game will be a lot less random, which I like. I like my little dudes to be somewhat reliable in the math hehe.

Also magic is rumored to be the first phase of the turn, in line with some of the wording of the new Beastmen spells.

So in a nutshell:
- must be 10 wide to get a rank BONUS
- the number of ranks you fight in, is your frontage divided by two. Monsters have a similar formula, and will be able to fight in two ranks
So with the above in mind, you dont HAVE to run ten wide, in fact a 6x3 block of something like swordmasters would be killer.

Many people have also speculated that since 10 wide will not be able to wheel at all, they are doing away with it for a WotR style movement, where one single model cannot move more than maximum.

Magic in first phase.

I have a big feeling that this is 50% to make things fresh since fantasy is pretty stale nationally (thanks demons and Phil Kelly) and 50% to balance the current books. Think about the problems of each book, and then the above.

**Kirasu**

Fighting in ranks wont help high elves at all.. Im assuming there is a LOT more to it than just "fight in ranks"

They always strike first, and have T3 with bad armor.. Sword masters do not want to fight in ranks because they have to kill 2x as many to avoid being slaughtered back

**Flashman**

I'm fairly confident that 10 wide to get a rank bonus will turn out to be nonsense. Horde armies will be buggered if this happens.

**GMMStudios**

Kirasu wrote:Fighting in ranks wont help high elves at all.. Im assuming there is a LOT more to it than just "fight in ranks"

They always strike first, and have T3 with bad armor.. Sword masters do not want to fight in ranks because they have to kill 2x as many to avoid being slaughtered back

What? How?

Imagine under this system swordmasters at 6x3. Every model in that unit gets to fight. As it stands now the most swordmasters that can fight is 6ish. Depending on the frontage of the enem unit.

That is 54 great weapon attacks going first.

**FlammingGaunt**

GMMStudios wrote:
Kirasu wrote:Fighting in ranks wont help high elves at all.. Im assuming there is a LOT more to it than just "fight in ranks"

They always strike first, and have T3 with bad armor.. Sword masters do not want to fight in ranks because they have to kill 2x as many to avoid being slaughtered back

What? How?

Imagine under this system swordmasters at 6x3. Every model in that unit gets to fight. As it stands now the most swordmasters that can fight is 6ish. Depending on the frontage of the enem unit.

That is 54 great weapon attacks going first.

Ya thats going to wipe any unit or monster.

**Cryonicleech**

I'm not too keen on the 2 ranks can attack. Any unit with more than one attack just became ridiculously good at killing things. Corsairs with Serpent Standard in a 7x3 formation can push out 43 attacks. That's a bit much, TBH.

If all of this is true, 2 hand weapons will suddenly shoot up in popularity, methinks.

**GMMStudios**

FlammingGaunt wrote:
GMMStudios wrote:
Kirasu wrote:Fighting in ranks wont help high elves at all.. Im assuming there is a LOT more to it than just "fight in ranks"

They always strike first, and have T3 with bad armor.. Sword masters do not want to fight in ranks because they have to kill 2x as many to avoid being slaughtered back

What? How?

Imagine under this system swordmasters at 6x3. Every model in that unit gets to fight. As it stands now the most swordmasters that can fight is 6ish. Depending on the frontage of the enem unit.

That is 54 great weapon attacks going first.

Ya thats going to wipe any unit or monster.

And its not much more expensive, if at all, than what people are already running.

**Hulksmash**

I like it! Ironguts HOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Ogres will be able to fight and win! Those 4x2 units of Ironguts w/Tyrant will make people cry!

**Grimstonefire**

@cryonicleech
My understanding is that subsequent ranks will only be able to contribute 1 attack per model. Not sure if this allows for frenzy (or other special rules) or not.

If anyone is interested I've done a roundup of rumours for 8th on warseer
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253845

**Kirasu**

The second rank doesnt get to attack.. Its only if the first rank is WIPED out do they get to attack so says rumors and what ive heard from playtesters

So yeah, that means always strikes first is pretty pointless on highelves as theyll just get murdered by return attacks.. Reminds me of eldar in 5th ed 40k.. Hopefully there is more to it than that

Clarifications about 10 wide seems to be simply 10 "models".. Honestly, 10 wide is such a massive divergence from the game Im a bit surprised people believed that

**JohnHwangDD**

Kirasu wrote:Clarifications about 10 wide seems to be simply 10 "models"..

I want to see 400mm of Ogres ranked up!

**Grimstonefire**

To clarify some of the confusion about 10 models wide:

BoLS reported a while back on this, but imo did not spell it out correctly.

Avian has also said this is the case on warseer, but as in 'if a unit is 10 models wide, it may fight with one extra rank than is normal'. Not that units have to be 10 models wide to get rank bonuses for CR.

Harry has rubbished this entirely, and said there is only a 'Horde' rule.

This is all separate to the 2 ranks thing.

**sirisaacnuton**

GMMStudios wrote:Also magic is rumored to be the first phase of the turn, in line with some of the wording of the new Beastmen spells.

That would certainly be a big change. For one thing, it would make 12" flare spells much less powerful, as you don't get to position first. I suppose this would help tone down that ability on an EotG, among other things. Sets Rot, Glorious Rot head and shoulders above other flares (even more so than it already is) as it'd be one of the few ones you couldn't get out of the way of easily.

It also seems like it would make movement manipulation spells more powerful (although maybe not, since they pretty much all allow you to charge if you successfully move)...it would certainly make movement spells different, anyway. And it would make the Beastmen's 0th spell go from just about worthless to pretty strong and deserving of a 7+ to cast.

Also, it would make anything that generates units a little better (since they would be able to move afterward, assumably).

**Reecius**

Nice roundup Grimstonefire, that seems all fairly plausible.

**Shep**

That was a nice round-up....

Well, I think i saw what i needed to be convinced that i'll be starting up fantasy again. Of course I'll wait until its confirmed. But the rumor about core only scoring and then only if it has a banner seals it.

If you are a fantasy player that doesn't have multi-edition 40k experience, then you should probably know that "troop scoring" more than any other change, saved 40k...

It doesn't slow the game down, its not going to make the game 'blockhammer'. People will incorrectly assume that the best armies will be packed with core and that won't be true, but what it will do is create a new urgency to protect your core units and to smash apart enemy core units rather than line your killers up against their killers and then play bloody knuckles for two hours.

Time to start socking away money it looks like...

**Hulksmash**

If that round up is even half right I'll be dusting off my fantasy stuff and getting my sword and shield fix from WFB again. Moving core to scoring is huge. And I agree with Shep that this saved 40k. I had dropped 40k for the 6 months before 5th came out and only came back because of the changes. I'm hoping the same thing happens in Fantasy.

Sounds like Ogres are gonna be better! 6 Ogres that get a rank bonus is huge especially combined with extra rank fighting! Plus almost the entire army would be scoring anyway

Don't know how I feel about %'s. Dwarf Specials are a huge part of the army and you wouldn't be able to take even 2 regiments of guys 2250. Would also bone High Elves. This statement is based on 25%. If it's up to 50% specials I'm cool with it

Overall a good swing. A lot of stuff there that would encourage me to pick up my fantasy stuff again.

**Ozymandias**

Interesting. If the magic rules are true it will certainly change the way my VC work.

The tournaments at Adepticon really left a sour taste in my mouth towards competitive WHFB, I hope 8th edition fixes all that.

**Uriels_Flame**

I'm pretty sure the Tyrvigon spamming VC lists have been in need of a tune for a while.

I like playing Fantasy now at lower points to avoid all (most) of the non-sense people complain about.

I think Fantasy is just stale right now in general. Sometimes change for the sake of change is a good thing. I think we'll see with this.

**bd1085**

Awesome collection of rumors. I especially like the the fact about magic going first.

These all seem like positive and constructive changes for WFB and is heading in the right direction.

**Reecius**

Ozymandias wrote:Interesting. If the magic rules are true it will certainly change the way my VC work.

The tournaments at Adepticon really left a sour taste in my mouth towards competitive WHFB, I hope 8th edition fixes all that.

You and me both, Ozzy. My first game against Dwarves was fun, and the following two against Daemons were a joke.

If they can balance out the game a bit, I will finish painting my Woodies and enjoy switching back forth between systems. As it stands now, I think 40K is just far more enjoyable to play, but of course that is my personal opinion.

**generalgrog**

Grimstonefire wrote:@cryonicleech
My understanding is that subsequent ranks will only be able to contribute 1 attack per model. Not sure if this allows for frenzy (or other special rules) or not.

If anyone is interested I've done a roundup of rumours for 8th on warseer
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253845

For those of us, like me who can't get warseer at work, could you please start up a rumour round up thread over here on DAKKA?

thanks.

GG

**Ozymandias**

Grimstonefire wrote:Note: This is only a summary of rumours that have been discussed in recent months. Rumours are subject to change. They are only 100% correct when they are facts.

I have tried to take out all the ones that have been quickly discredited, and a lot of this comes from reliable sources (who have been contradictory). Just so I am clear, none of what follows are rumours from me, they are all from other people.

Take with as much salt as is necessary, and don't blame me if any of it is wrong (I had to wade through around 200 pages of **** in french, german and english, and if I see people moaning about 25% again... *shudders* )

Note as well that none of the names of rules below are official, I just put something fun there for reference when I was collating.

Updating this: Much as I'd like to have the time and motivation to read all rumour discussions, PLEASE PM ME here with info, only if there is a significant rumour discussion from someone you guys really trust. I know there are snippets coming out in the general discussion here, and on many other forums. So rather than have to trawl across the web every few days, if you guys want this updated you will need to pm me with the info. I will try and keep ontop of things.

Note as well that unlike the other thread this is only for rumour discussion for the 8th edition rulebook itself. Not what armies are getting which releases (save that for the other thread).

More reliable rumours

* Army construction is moving back to percentages.
* Strength in Depth/ Stepping up
* Crush attack for larger creatures
* 40mm models moving to 3 model-wide ranks.
* Multiple objective driven scenarios in the rulebook
* Power dice aren’t generated by the number of spellcasters. The pool is decided by 2D6. Magic users add their magic level to the score rolled. All Wizards have a chance to generate more power dice.
* Archers fire in two ranks (not just High Elves but all archers)

Other rumours (and description of above)

These are all listed in no particular order.

ARMY SELECTION

* Army construction is moving back to percentages.
There have been not been strong rumours yet to support any specific % for all categories, however, 25% min core, 25% max special and 25% max rare seem to be undisputed.
* Slot system may or may not be dropped
* Categories for core/special/rare are remaining.
There have been no rumours yet of a system wide errata to specify which things are limited as a result.

MAGIC

NOTE: The magic rumours nobody seems to agree on, so rather than try and find what exactly the truth is I will just put here most of the theories

* Power dice aren’t generated by the number of spellcasters. The pool is decided by 2D6. Magic users add their magic level to the score rolled. All Wizards have a chance to generate more power dice. - Avian
* Giving irresistible force a downside
* If a wizard fails to cast (not counting dispels) twice in a row he miscasts
* Making miscasts harder to have but much more devastating.
* Dispel scroll only adding dispel dice (+2 dice to the dispel dice pool once per game). (edit - possibly speculation)
* Something rumoured is carrying over power dice, but holding too many could lead to a ‘magic backlash’.
* All the book Lores will have more supportive spells than they have now, and will all be getting a major overhaul. Each lore to get a mega spell.
* Dispel attempts to be made by specific wizards (presumable your casting level is beneficial for dispelling spells)
* A higher chance of miscast with multiple casters.
* If a wizard fail to cast a spell he can't cast other spells in the same phase.

COMBAT

NOTE: Trying to nail down what the truth is here is very hard. Once it is explained properly by someone who knows categorically what it is I will update this

Some of this is only my understanding of what has been discussed.

What is 100% clear is that models in the second rank will have some role to play in most combats.

* Strength in Depth. - Harry
2nd rank models in Infantry units will always fight with a single hand weapon attack, as long as it is 5 models minimum (or 3 for ogre sized). Note that this is regardless of what their profile attacks are, or what weapons they are carrying. Awaiting clarification on whether they get to use special rules in addition to this or not (frenzy, hatred and killing blow).

It has yet to be clarified exactly how models with spears get to use them.
No word on the impact for High Elves.

Cavalry still only fight in 1 rank.
* Stepping up. - Avian
Casualties are removed strictly from the rear ranks.

Basically how this works is that as long as you have sufficient models left in the unit, they can step up from anywhere to replace those 'killed' in the attacking rank. Only once there are not sufficient models left to replace those that are killed will the overall attacks of the unit drop.

Example:

You have a unit of 20 guys, 8 of which are in a position to fight and 12 of which are not. The enemy strikes first and kills 6 of your guys. As you now have 14 models you have sufficient numbers to step up and replace casualties, you still get to fight back with 8 models. In the next round of combat, the enemy kills a further 8 models. You now have only 6 models that get to fight back.

This is the same regardless of which side they are attacked on.

* Horde
Fight in 3 ranks if 10+ wide (4 with spears). - Avian.
Some benefit to fighting in large units - Harry
* One Save to ruin them all!
Models will only ever get one save (be it ward, mundane or magical armour). No word yet on whether regeneration is included. From Alessio himself!
* 40mm models
40mm models moving to 3 model-wide ranks. Ogre sized models are officially being put into their own size category (finally).
* Crush them!
Additional stomp/crush attacks for big infantry (ogres, trolls, etc) to represent them trampling lesser races underfoot. Bigger bonus for large creatures like giants.
* Fewer armour save modifiers
* Chariots
S7 autokill is gone. (edit: possible speculation)

MOVEMENT

* Measure the distance for the furthest moving model, and perform whatever manoeuvres you wish within that lax limitation. Command models will have some role to play in giving free manoeuvre as you move (Musician bonus similar to Ancient Battles?).
* Charging.
An added 'bonus' of getting an 'extra' +D6 or +D3 inches of movement to your move range (presumably the D6 or D3 decided by the category of warrior; infantry/cavalry/ogre sized).
* Heavy cavalry no longer able to march
- Heavy cavalry, defined as any cavalry with a 2+ or better save, cannot march. They can double their move when charging as normal, but they are not allowed to make a March move.
- "Medium and Fast cavalry remain the same".

SHOOTING

* As it happens to be the same rumour; fewer armour save modifiers.
* Archers fire in two ranks (not just High Elves but all archers). - Harry

PSYCHOLOGY

* Fear and Terror
When in combat, units or monsters with these rules gain 1 or 2 or 3 points of Static Combat modifier. This is added to the number of wounds caused by the Fear/Terror model/unit, as well as ranks, banners, etc. These bonuses may be cumulative between fear/terror causing things attacking a unit.
* Autobreaking from fear or terror is gone.

OTHER RULEBOOK CONTENTS

* Multiple objective driven scenarios in the rulebook (no kill points). See GW grand tournament and doubles scenarios.
* 15 or so missions in the new rulebook. 9 or 10 of the missions required Core units to capture objectives. Units must have banners to capture objectives. Several missions had multiple objectives
* Victory Conditions
Interestingly something I picked up from a post was that ‘victory conditions’ have been referred to in the last 3 books, not victory points.
* Terrain
Difficult terrain may be merged with very difficult and encompass more things (presumably more than just affecting movement).

Discredited rumours
Fight-until-someone-breaks
Lapping around
Weapons using the flame template or large or small blast templates automatically hit any model in contact rather than cause partial hits.

**Grimstonefire**

@generalgrog
If we have the ability to lock our own threads and either reopen for editing, or edit a locked thread, it would be easy for me to just copy and paste the latest version.

Bear in mind though that what I am doing at the moment is only presenting a round up of most rumours. Not a roundup of facts. So whilst it would be interesting for you all to quiz my understanding of rumoured rules in an open thread, it would not be so much fun for me.

As an example, I have edited the sticky on warseer about 3 times today already, and I anticipate doing it again later, so it's easier for me to keep it locked.

If what I said at the beginning above is something that can be done here, one of the mods will have to let me know.

**generalgrog**

Well, you can edit your original post by adding your copy paste to it.

I don't know if that is what you are saying you want to do or not?

GG

**Jin**

Thanks for the rumor round-up, Grimstonefire (and Ozy for the repost)!

* Army construction is moving back to percentages.
There have been not been strong rumours yet to support any specific % for all categories, however, 25% min core, 25% max special and 25% max rare seem to be undisputed.
* Slot system may or may not be dropped
* Categories for core/special/rare are remaining.
There have been no rumours yet of a system wide errata to specify which things are limited as a result.

I'm curious to see how this will affect armies with less spectacular Core units.

MAGIC
I don't think I'm keen on the Random Power Dice pool and the failing to cast twice in a row => miscast is gonna be rough (especially if you roll like I do).
The last rumor seems interesting and could really change the dynamic of the Magic Phase, though I think in general, the armies that tend to go Magic Heavy don't really have difficulty successfully casting.

COMBAT & SHOOTING
The Stepping Up rule will definitely help out some of the cheaper/less elite infantry units. I can see it greatly affecting MSU armies being played. I would prefer seeing this rule instead of a variation of the Strength in Depth rule.

I'm curious as to what they mean by Fewer Save Modifiers - Possible rework of armor modifier table?

Archers firing in two ranks? About time. I wonder if this includes crossbows, however (would make DE RxBers even deadlier if so).

MOVEMENT
I'm not a fan of the extra variable movement. It's something I disliked about the 3rd/4th Ed. Fleet moves in 40k. I feel like adding that bit of "uncertainty" in movement in WFB is unnecessary.

The Heavy Cavalry rule is interesting (though they'll probably need to just explicitly create a Heavy Cavalry rule for certain units, just like they do with Fast Cavalry). Wonder what benefit they could give to counter-act the loss of speed.

Thank god they're toning down Fear/Terror.

I'm anxious to see harder-set rumors/rules.

**Kirasu**

Looks like theyre getting rid of hero hammer in the same way they got rid of it in 40k.. Removal of additional saves

Cant wait for the new edition as I pretty much will not play competitive WFB with the current ruleset (or I should say Daemonset). I really enjoy fantasy every week among friends, just not at tournaments

**Grimstonefire**

I will just point out here that I may soon be changing the rumour on fear/terror to be much less specific (just that they are changing it actually).

Infact if any of you guys want to go and quiz your local GW guys about the changes to fear/terror it would be very helpful.

**Flashman**

Any word on those cavalry impact hits Grim? It's the one thing I want. I guess it could be the trade off for Heavy Cavalry losing their march move.

Step up makes sense. Got fed up of trying to work out which models had survived and could hit back.