Best single anti tank unit in the game?

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**willydstyle**

Really, so you're saying there's a situation where a unit is *guaranteed* to do damage? I'd love to use this magical unit you speak of.

**Brother Bartius**

Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:My money is still on a unit of Fire Dragons.

I use two units of 6 w/ Exarch and tank hunters in Serpents. Love them and in reality Eldar can not function without them.

I'd disagree with this statement. Whilst it is effective in a mech list it's next to useless in a footslogging list.

I've seen foot slogging Eldar do very well for themselves without any fire dragons.

If we're looking for something to reliably kill monoliths as well as other armour, wraithguard are the best option in the Eldar army.

Very expensive cash and points wise though.

**DeathReaper**

I change my vote to:
Battlewagon W/ DEFROLLA!!!!!!!!

**gendoikari87**

Fire Dragons are also short ranged meaning that after they do their part they're likely to either not be in range of another vehicle or die trying to get to one. where as broadsides are not in any immediate danger after they pop their first tank, and are generally in range of any other tank out there.

**ChrisCP**

Just Dave wrote:
ChrisCP wrote:Umm, 10 Nob Bikers with Warboss.
Huge assault range, 11 wound, 5 Str 10 attacks, 40 Str 9 attacks.
Could probably get 4/5 rokkits and re rolls in there too assuring their 'mized to the max.

Gutsnagga wrote:Definitely PK nob warbikers.

OK, and the price of this unit is?

They could be if it wasn't for the fact they pretty much need to be in close combat and possibly cost more than any single tank...

Andd the title is "Best single anti tank unit" and they are.

They might be unweildy, expensive and only start to be a threat at 18" but, they have 3++/5++/4+/4+FNP Potential 11 wounds to lose a model and make tanks go tinkle?

Cost effective, no not at all. Going to break more tanks than anythign else, yes. Able to kill anything in addition to making monoliths crumble? Yep.

But no, expensive :(

**ductvader**

For pure destructive power without factoring gameplay so much...I don't think anything is more reliable at tearing apart armor than Old One Eye.

**Unreal Toast**

I still say the Type II Heavy Anti Grav Tank from FW should probably do the job, although it does cost £130

**SaintHazard**

willydstyle wrote:Really, so you're saying there's a situation where a unit is *guaranteed* to do damage? I'd love to use this magical unit you speak of.

Don't be obtuse.

On average, Broadsides will pop one Rhino per turn, based on the math.

It's not a complicated concept.

**kronk**

For my Black Templar, I've found that a 5 man terminator squad with 2 assault cannons and the tank hunters veteran ability does pretty quick work. Toss in a couple of chainfists, and they're even better.

**SaintHazard**

kronk wrote:For my Black Templar, I've found that a 5 man terminator squad with 2 assault cannons and the tank hunters veteran ability does pretty quick work. Toss in a couple of chainfists, and they're even better.

Ouch.

8 S6 rending shots.

That's a beast.

You could take down Land Raiders with that sucker.

**frenrik**

Technically it's math for the expected number of penetrations, with a great number of assumptions.

I also forgot about the ap 1 in my math.

broadsides chance to destroy av 13 with 3 shots is 0.4636
(ignoring glances)

Odds for manticores (assuming 2/3 chance to hit) is
1 shot 0.1975, 2 shot 0.3560, 3 shot 0.4832

So, I'll concede that as long as you have LOS, broadsides are better than manticores at taking out a predator.

**Jaon**

ChrisCP wrote:
Just Dave wrote:
ChrisCP wrote:Umm, 10 Nob Bikers with Warboss.
Huge assault range, 11 wound, 5 Str 10 attacks, 40 Str 9 attacks.
Could probably get 4/5 rokkits and re rolls in there too assuring their 'mized to the max.

Gutsnagga wrote:Definitely PK nob warbikers.

OK, and the price of this unit is?

They could be if it wasn't for the fact they pretty much need to be in close combat and possibly cost more than any single tank...

Andd the title is "Best single anti tank unit" and they are.

They might be unweildy, expensive and only start to be a threat at 18" but, they have 3++/5++/4+/4+FNP Potential 11 wounds to lose a model and make tanks go tinkle?

Cost effective, no not at all. Going to break more tanks than anythign else, yes. Able to kill anything in addition to making monoliths crumble? Yep.

But no, expensive :(

The OP also says that you would sanely use in a game, please no 30 death company here, which kind of removes your unit from the tank hunting genepool

Somethings to think about in Broadside vs Manticore

Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to move and fire (undamaged)
Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to target an enemy ( undamaged)
Broadsides cannot bypass LOS blocking terrain in any way, shape or form.
Manticores have 120 range.
Broadsides do not run out of ammo
Broadsides are situationally more durable than manticores
Broadsides have wounds
Manticores are immune to small arms fire
Manticores can kill more infantry (off topic, but it was mentioned earlier) than any amount of broadsides every could.
Broadsides are in excess of 210 points for 3...so please do your mathhammer on 2 broadsides with upgrades. Then we will see who is better.

So. It would take a squad of broadsides effectively 5 turns to walk 48' into their range and set up to fire, by which time they will have eaten anywhere between 16 and 4 str 10 blasts...and will then face the wrath of a 12 10 10 chassis with a...most vengeful heavy bolter...

But thats just being ridiculous

**willydstyle**

But if the manticore moves, it loses the benefits of ignoring many types of cover and hitting side armor.

**Jaon**

Of which the broadside never had the option.

**gendoikari87**

frenrik wrote:Technically it's math for the expected number of penetrations, with a great number of assumptions.

I also forgot about the ap 1 in my math.

broadsides chance to destroy av 13 with 3 shots is 0.4636
(ignoring glances)

Odds for manticores (assuming 2/3 chance to hit) is
1 shot 0.1975, 2 shot 0.3560, 3 shot 0.4832

So, I'll concede that as long as you have LOS, broadsides are better than manticores at taking out a predator.

um with broadsides you hve something like .5625 chance of killing av 13 ignoring glances with glances the chance comes to .625

manticores are something on the order of .333 on average with a guaranteed 3 shots and that's being generous giving missed shots a 50% chance of not scattering off the vehicle.... Check your math

The OP also says that you would sanely use in a game, please no 30 death company here, which kind of removes your unit from the tank hunting genepool

Somethings to think about in Broadside vs Manticore

Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to move and fire (undamaged) A.S.S. Says broadsides can do the same thing
Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to target an enemy ( undamaged) In the realm of TLOS, Broadsides can to 99% of the time
Broadsides cannot bypass LOS blocking terrain in any way, shape or form. TLOS means this is no big issue
Manticores have 120 range. And broadsides can still hit you from opposite corners of the board, 120 inch range means nothing
Broadsides do not run out of ammo
Broadsides are situationally more durable than manticores
Broadsides have wounds They also have really good saves and drones that can eat a lascannon or melta gun to the face
Manticores are immune to small arms fire And a good broadside squad is immune to the first few round lascannon HWS fire
Manticores can kill more infantry (off topic, but it was mentioned earlier) than any amount of broadsides every could. Kill more yes, but broadsides can get around intervening terrain
Broadsides are in excess of 210 points for 3...so please do your mathhammer on 2 broadsides with upgrades. Then we will see who is better.

Okay,
2 Broadsides [170] [Drone controllers, 2 Shield Drones]

So. It would take a squad of broadsides effectively 5 turns to walk 48' into their range and set up to fire, by which time they will have eaten anywhere between 16 and 4 str 10 blasts...and will then face the wrath of a 12 10 10 chassis with a...most vengeful heavy bolter...

But thats just being ridiculous

Irrelevant, a broadside will be in range turn one on any normal board anyway. at the end of the day, the manticore is not a tank hunter, it's a good horde killer, and 4+ infantry annihilator

Of which the broadside never had the option.

A.S.S. Makes them relentless, which I think (could be wrong) gets passed on to the marker drones so in effect the broadside can move and ignore cover and the manticore cannot.

**SaintHazard**

gendoikari just made my point for me, so instead of typing out a long-winded reply to Jaon, I simply refer you to his post. ^

I said good day!

**frenrik**

Okay, here is the formula I used

3/4 (hit) * 1/2 (pen) * 1/2 (chance to destroy) = 3/16 chance for 1 shot to destroy

Chance to destroy = 1 - chance to not get a destroy result
= 1 - (1-3/16)^3 = = 1 - (13/16) ^ 3 = 1-0.54 = 0.46 = 46%

Maybe you could enlighten me on what's incorrect.

As far as TLOS goes, maybe where you play it's not an issue. My game shop has this nice building that's about 10" by 10" that is a good 9" tall that totally blocks line of sight.

**gendoikari87**

frenrik wrote:Okay, here is the formula I used

3/4 (hit) * 1/2 (pen) * 1/2 (chance to destroy) = 3/16 chance for 1 shot to destroy

Chance to destroy = 1 - chance to not get a destroy result
= 1 - (1-3/16)^3 = = 1 - (13/16) ^ 3 = 1-0.54 = 0.46 = 46%

Maybe you could enlighten me on what's incorrect.

As far as TLOS goes, maybe where you play it's not an issue. My game shop has this nice building that's about 10" by 10" that is a good 9" tall that totally blocks line of sight.

for a broadside it would be

To hit: (.5)+((1-.5)*.5)

To penetrate .5

To destroy .5

However you left off that a glancing hit can still destroy on a 6

**Kilkrazy**

Cover that blocking building is pretty rare, and can be often avoided during deployment.

Also tables aren't 120 inches across.

So these factors should be ignored in general consideration of Broadside vs Manticore.

As mentioned above, Broadsides also have a great anti-infantry and light vehicle weapon (Smart Missile System) in addition to their railguns. Zoanthropes have got their Warp Blast, of course, but can't use that and the lance at the same time.

A two Broadside team has a 93.25% chance to score a hit, ignoring cover and markerlights. A three Broadside team has a 98.44% chance to score a hit. They can score multiple hits. When the SMS is in range, they can score many useful hits against squadrons and light vehicles.

**DeathReaper**

SaintHazard wrote:
kronk wrote:For my Black Templar, I've found that a 5 man terminator squad with 2 assault cannons and the tank hunters veteran ability does pretty quick work. Toss in a couple of chainfists, and they're even better.

Ouch.

8 S6 rending shots.

That's a beast.

You could take down Land Raiders with that sucker.

ok I change my vote again, 3 Landspeeders in a Squadron with Multi-Meltas and Assault cannons (12 S6 rending shots and 3 MultiMelta shots per turn)

**gendoikari87**

A bit short ranged and thin skinned but fast, so i think they might beat the broadsides as best AT, but it all depends on what you prefer at that point, short or long range.

**SaintHazard**

Actually, that's exactly what I run in large games - three Land Speeders, each with AC and MM. It's not cheap, though. 300 points exactly (100 per).

In smaller games, I run just one, or two seperately.

They pop Land Raiders like it's nothing.

They even glance Monoliths to death.

**hpred**

Personally, my "Chaos Renegade with Lascannon" when I field him. Has 1 confirmed Land Raider Kill to his credit. 15 points base pulse 35 point Lascannon equals 50 points.

Or Kharn at 165 who has 1 confirmed Land Raider Kill as well. I was facing a Black Templar's player who kept his Land Raider still and let Kharn charge it. Round 1: Immobilized, Round 2: Hurricane Bolter destroyed, Round 3: Explosion!!

For my Space Marines, I haven't had anything destroy a Land Raider yet. But I have had one immobilize itself on terrain.

**Jaon**

gendoikari87 wrote:
frenrik wrote:Technically it's math for the expected number of penetrations, with a great number of assumptions.

I also forgot about the ap 1 in my math.

broadsides chance to destroy av 13 with 3 shots is 0.4636
(ignoring glances)

Odds for manticores (assuming 2/3 chance to hit) is
1 shot 0.1975, 2 shot 0.3560, 3 shot 0.4832

So, I'll concede that as long as you have LOS, broadsides are better than manticores at taking out a predator.

um with broadsides you hve something like .5625 chance of killing av 13 ignoring glances with glances the chance comes to .625

manticores are something on the order of .333 on average with a guaranteed 3 shots and that's being generous giving missed shots a 50% chance of not scattering off the vehicle.... Check your math

The OP also says that you would sanely use in a game, please no 30 death company here, which kind of removes your unit from the tank hunting genepool

Somethings to think about in Broadside vs Manticore

Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to move and fire (undamaged) A.S.S. Says broadsides can do the same thing Adding even more points to your unit.
Manticore WILL ALWAYS be able to target an enemy ( undamaged) In the realm of TLOS, Broadsides can to 99% of the time Stop bsing, thats a complete lie
Broadsides cannot bypass LOS blocking terrain in any way, shape or form. TLOS means this is no big issue once again, Almost every game I play theres los blocking cover like bunkers and bastions. Terrible point
Manticores have 120 range. And broadsides can still hit you from opposite corners of the board, 120 inch range means nothing Apocalypse anyone? Stop trying to remove the good points of the manticore because of your fanboy love of broadsides.
Broadsides do not run out of ammo (See how you didnt argue with these?)
Broadsides are situationally more durable than manticores (as above)
Broadsides have wounds They also have really good saves and drones that can eat a lascannon or melta gun to the face Manticores can also place baneblades next to them
Manticores are immune to small arms fire And a good broadside squad is immune to the first few round lascannon HWS fire A good broadside team will be lucky to survive 3 lascannon hits unscathed.
Manticor es can kill more infantry (off topic, but it was mentioned earlier) than any amount of broadsides every could. Kill more yes, but broadsides can get around intervening terrain um....this is probably the worst point Ive seen on dakka. Manticores can fire over intervening terrain.
Broadsides are in excess of 210 points for 3...so please do your mathhammer on 2 broadsides with upgrades. Then we will see who is better. Ignored my point?

Okay,
2 Broadsides [170] [Drone controllers, 2 Shield Drones]

So. It would take a squad of broadsides effectively 5 turns to walk 48' into their range and set up to fire, by which time they will have eaten anywhere between 16 and 4 str 10 blasts...and will then face the wrath of a 12 10 10 chassis with a...most vengeful heavy bolter...

But thats just being ridiculous

Irrelevant, a broadside will be in range turn one on any normal board anyway. at the end of the day, the manticore is not a tank hunter, it's a good horde killer, and 4+ infantry annihilator At the end of the day, 3 broadsides with drones and A.S.S costs twice as much as a manticore.

Of which the broadside never had the option.

A.S.S. Makes them relentless, which I think (could be wrong) gets passed on to the marker drones so in effect the broadside can move and ignore cover and the manticore cannot.

**gendoikari87**

You're really still trying to bend reality to make an anti-infantry killing machine into a tank hunter? The fact of the matter is that the Manticore can not compete with Broadsides as AT, They don't even compete well with other guard choices such as vanquishers, Melta vets or even vendettas, which are at best on par with the broadsides.

at the end of the day, the broadside can ignore obscured saves, has the same str as the manticore, but is AP 1 and is much more accurate. (being on average BS 4 twinlinked).

and at the end of the day, if you're using a manticore as anti tank, something is amiss.

2 Broadsides are about the same cost, and 3 aren't much more expensive, no where near the 320 points you claim, but even one BS is better at tank killing than three manticores.

Even taking average point values and average performance you have for a manticore

2/3 chance to hit (very generous), .5 chance to penetrate, and heres the important part 2/6 chance to kill, so for the average of 2 shots you get about 22% chance to kill for 160 points or a point efficiancy of .0013

Taking a 100 point broadside with NO markerlight help, you get 3/4 chance to hit, .5 chance to pen, and .5 chance to kill plus whatever you get from glances, but for now we shall ignore glances. That gives you .18% Chance to kill. At 100 points that's a point efficiancy of .0018

which makes the broadside about 1.38 times better than a manticore per point.

and the manticore is a freshly new weapon system, but tau are an OLD codex meaning much less efficient than it should be. ... assuming codex creep.

**COMMANDER SUNTZU**

i would say that broadsides are effective but abaddon (think i spelt his name right ) is the king. i have heard of him making piecemail out of land raiders and even baneblades before due to his powerful daemon weapons and strong wounds. non-charecter units i would say long fangs due to thier ability to target individual targerts and take missile launchers very cheaply. so for the price of a squad of broadsides you could have about 15 missile launchers targetting multiple leman russ or chimeras. hoep i helped

**tgf**

Jaon wrote:What do you honestly think is the best anti tank unit in the game?

Please, to keep things reasonable, squad sizes have a maximum of 10. Or, better yet, give an example of something you would actually use, please no 30 death company with 30 thunder hammers and 30 storm shields.

Personally, I would say Broadsides with advanced stabilization system, or Manticore, or maybe even the Vanquisher with pask.

Opinions? Whats your races favourite anti tank unit and how do you use it.

Sternguard in a drop pod with 10 combi-meltas in a vulkan lead army.

Done!

**gendoikari87**

tgf wrote:
Jaon wrote:What do you honestly think is the best anti tank unit in the game?

Please, to keep things reasonable, squad sizes have a maximum of 10. Or, better yet, give an example of something you would actually use, please no 30 death company with 30 thunder hammers and 30 storm shields.

Personally, I would say Broadsides with advanced stabilization system, or Manticore, or maybe even the Vanquisher with pask.

Opinions? Whats your races favourite anti tank unit and how do you use it.

Sternguard in a drop pod with 10 combi-meltas in a vulkan lead army.

Done!

melta's of any kind are king of anti tank, they're just short rangeds, not a big problem if you deep strike. even DSing storm troopers with meltas will reliably kill anything

also, WTF, Long fangs get 10 point missile launchers? That's just so wrong. I mean anything that's str 8 that makes av 14 shake in it's boots is just evil.

Edit: str 8 and not melta.

**nosferatu1001**

They get them for 10 points becaise they only have one even vaguely ablative wound in the Sarge.

**Just Dave**

Long Fangs are not the best anti-tank because of their price and strength of shooting. If they have missiles then they're unreliable for AT. Missiles are used for their flexibility rather than their anti-tank capacity.

Broadsides are at-least superior to Long Fangs in anti-tank. IMHO they're the best - without dispute - at anti-tank.

Sternguard with combi-melta's are incredibly effective against a tank. any tank.
however, and this is a big HOWEVER, they're expensive, short-ranged, unreliable due to deep-strike and a one-hit use. Also they will struggle against the likes of a monolith.