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frenrik wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:I don't think dedicated transports or vehicles of any sort can be combined with a unit and be called "part" of that unit for the purposes of determining the "best single anti tank unit in the game."

Because they're seperate units.

Then you can't count marker lights.

So, valks would be better (easier to get cover ignoring side shots).

Manticores would also be better since they hit side armor and have an easier time ignoring cover (depending on size of target though).

Squad can take up to 6 marker drones if they really wanted too.

I was under the impression that you couldn't use markers from your own squad if they aren't networked.

You would be correct.

juicaj1 wrote:what about a squad of pink horrors and a changeling? they're cheap. +5 for a changeling and +10 for bolt of tzeentch. you've got a str 8 AP 1 weapon thats also assault. Also if you're opponent decides for some reason to fire heavy weapons at them you could make them blow up their own tank. Deffinately not the most reliable or effective, but the thought of making your opponent blow up his own weapon is pretty unique.

Actually, if your opponent decides to fire a heavy weapon at anything at all, as long as the heavy weapon is within 24", and the vehicle is in the Changeling's line of sight, you can make the heavy weapon fire at the vehicle.

Only downside is the firer has to fail a leadership check first, and if the firer is a vehicle, their Ld value is 10.

So it's unreliable at best.

Hilarious if it works, but it rarely does.

Firedragons hands down.

Nice I didn't catch that before. Wish I knew that before hahaha. Yeah it doesn't happen often but the first game I played using him against my friend he shot at it with a space marine heavy weapons squad first shooting of the game did that and failed his leader ship test. He had to turn his man with a lascannon to face his rocket launcher and watch has his squad blew him self to pieces. He wasn't too happy about that.

Broadsides, by far.

Umm, 10 Nob Bikers with Warboss.
Huge assault range, 11 wound, 5 Str 10 attacks, 40 Str 9 attacks.
Could probably get 4/5 rokkits and re rolls in there too assuring their 'mized to the max.

Definitely PK nob warbikers.

ChrisCP wrote:Umm, 10 Nob Bikers with Warboss.
Huge assault range, 11 wound, 5 Str 10 attacks, 40 Str 9 attacks.
Could probably get 4/5 rokkits and re rolls in there too assuring their 'mized to the max.

Gutsnagga wrote:Definitely PK nob warbikers.

OK, and the price of this unit is?

They could be if it wasn't for the fact they pretty much need to be in close combat and possibly cost more than any single tank...

Just Dave wrote:OK, and the price of this unit is?

Short of Flash Gitz and Looted Wagons, Nob Bikers are the most overpriced unit in the Ork codex.

So the answer is "too much to be worth it."

Nobs With powerclaws are the best for destroying tanks.

templeorks wrote:Nobs With powerclaws are the best for destroying tanks.

Unless they get shot down before they can even get close.

Say, by, oh... a Hammerhead's S6 AP4 large blast template?

The problem that all of this OMGBROADSIDESRAILGUNS is that broadsides don't ignore cover.

Against an opponent who really doesn't want a vehicle killed, you START with a -50% Add to that that there IS terrain that can completely block LOS (buildings and the like), and those railguns are 100% ineffective.

Yeah, they're S10 and AP1. No, this doesnt' automatically make them the best.

Broadsides can take Drone Controllers and Drones with Networked Markerlights.

As Nurglitch has said. Also, which of the units/attacks mentioned do ignore cover? Not that many...
The potential of cover isn't enough to dispute the superiority of Broadsides IMHO.

Exactly what the two gentlemen above me just said.

Markerlights, yo.

And the drones are only necessary if we're just talking about the one single unit (which, in this thread, we are), and not a number of units working in tandem.

When you actually plop some Broadsides down on the tabletop, they'll probably be paired with some Pathfinders. That's when gak gets real.

But until then, we can still put forward a unit of Broadsides with Marker Drones (potentially up to six) as the "best single anti tank unit in the game."

It's also worth mentioning that IG can't field any reliable anti-tank that doesn't involve a transport, with the sole exception of the Manticore (and even then, the template makes it iffy - most hits will be S5 hits). And my Broadsides can reliably pop your transports from my table edge, and then some.

SaintHazard wrote:the Manticore (and even then, the template makes it iffy - most hits will be S5 hits).

Except for the part where that's not true, you'd be right.

And artillery hits side armor, unlike broadsides, which means it's effectively a few points of str higher than a broadside. Firing IF ignores cover completely for free (while you had to sacrifice shield drones otherwise) and can attack targets completely out of LOS.

Furthermore the # of penetrating hits: points ratio is pretty bad with broadsides compared to other options.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Broadsides hands down imo

- S10 AP1
- Twin-linked
- 72" range (no having to expose yourself to angry CC units that are looking for revenge for putting a big hole in the side of thier ride)
- can benefit from marker lights to reduce or remove cover saves
- can be equipped to be able to individually target seperate units, giving the possibility for one unit to kill 3 seperate vehicles a turn.

you forgot the 12 str 5 shots that go around cover at 24" you can unleash once the tanks are gone. This is why they beat any other anti tank, because they do it better than almost anything else, tie the rest, and can switch to anti-infantry after they run out of stuff to shoot.

The problem that all of this OMGBROADSIDESRAILGUNS is that broadsides don't ignore cover.

correct, broadsides don't, Pathfinders do.... oh wait, you can take marker drones, so YES BROADSIDES DO IGNORE COVER!

But until then, we can still put forward a unit of Broadsides with Marker Drones (potentially up to six) as the "best single anti tank unit in the game."

theres also the shield drones that soak up wounds like theres no tomorrow meaning that even a few HWS worth of lascannons isn't going to touch your precious broadsides.

@Ailaros

Um, okay? Instead of just shooting down my comment out of hand, you want to explain why, when the center of the Manticore's blast marker scatters off of the vehicle, it doesn't become an S5 hit?

Lemme explain how blast markers work when you're trying to pen a vehicle, and why they're not BETTER at it than Broadsides firing directly.

When you're shooting, say, a BS3 railgun at a Predator's front armor, you need to roll a 4 to hit (50%), then a 3 to glance, or a 4, 5 or 6 to pen. Let's just say we want to pen here, so you need a 4+ (50%).

When you're shooting D3 BS3 Manticore missiles at a Predator's side armor (since ordnance barrage hits "top" armor, which uses side AV), you'd love to get a direct hit (33%), but if it scatters, depending on which direction it scatters, you need to roll a 6 or less on two dice (50%) so that it doesn't scatter the rough 3" needed for it to scatter off the Predator (and I'm being generous here, the Predator is not 3" wide, but we're going to use my very generous 3" just for the sake of this argument). You then need to roll a 2 to glance, and a 3, 4, 5, or 6 to pen. So, you pen on a 3+ (66%). I'm not going to bother mathhammering out your chances of penning if you scatter off the hull of the Predator, because a S5 hit won't pen.

So let's break this down:

3 Broadsides firing 3 twin-linked S10 shots:
3 * 1/2 * 2 * 1/2 = 1.5, or a 150% chance to pen (effectively one guaranteed pen, and a 50% chance of a second pen)

1 Manticore firing 1-3 S10 ordnance barrage missile:
1 * 5/6 * 2/3 = .55, or 55%
2 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 1.11, or 111%
3 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 1.66, or 166% chance to pen

Now there's a 33% chance of any of the three above results, effectively resulting in a 110% chance to pen ((.55 + 1.11 + 1.66) / 3).

Which is why the Manticore is NOT more likely to pen than a trio of Broadsides, even though it's hitting side armor.

you forgot manticores are AP 4 while broadsides are ap 1, meaning they will reliably kill a vehilce better being that they CAN kill a vehicle on a glance and only 1/6 pens won't be a permanent result.

gendoikari87 wrote:you forgot manticores are AP 4 while broadsides are ap 1, meaning they will reliably kill a vehilce better being that they CAN kill a vehicle on a glance and only 1/6 pens won't be a permanent result.

This is also true! I forgot about the vehicle damage chart.

Score one more for Broadsides.

it's a moot point it's generally accepted that broadsides and railguns in generall are the best long range anti-tank, a close second is FB crisis suits. Anti tank is what the tau have in spades and they're still on the low end of the power scale.

Also if you want to put plasma rifle instead of the SMS on the broadsides then AV12 and lower became seriously endangered. provided they reach the 24 inch range.

The point certainly has been mooted; that's why we're discussing it...

Acardia wrote:Also if you want to put plasma rifle instead of the SMS on the broadsides then AV12 and lower became seriously endangered. provided they reach the 24 inch range.

I personally never would, though... given the option of one TL S6 AP 2 shot at 24" versus four S5 AP5 shots at the same range, statistically the four S5 shots will cause more wounds, even against 2+ armored targets... and the plasma rifle is a 10 point upgrade for already expensive Broadsides.

But you're right, in that it can be done.

It's 2d6 Pick the highest for pen for ordinance making it 8/9 ( 1 - chance to not pen = 1 - 1/3 * 1/3 = 1 - 1/9 = 8/9 ) chance to penetrate. Also, you could pen on the back armor on a 6, but let's just say that's cancelled out by the fact that it's not actually 3" wide.

1 Manticore firing 1-3 S10 ordnance barrage missile:
1 * 8/9 * 2/3 = .59 or 59%
2 * 8/9 * 2/3 = 1.18, or 118%
3 * 8/9 * 2/3 = 1.77, or 177% chance to pen

(1 * 8/9 * 2/3) + (2 * 8/9 * 2/3) + (3 * 8/9 * 2/3) / 3
=(8/9*2/3) * (1 + 2 + 3) / 3 = (8/9*2/3 ) 2 = 1.18%

Also, your broadside chance to hit is 3/4, not 1 ( 1 - chance to miss twice = 1 - 1/2 * 1/2 = 3 / 4)
chance to hit = 3/4
chance to pen = 1/2
number of shots = 3

So, 3*3/4*1/2 = 9/8 = 1.12

1.18 > 1.12

Hm.

I'm rolling a few misses today, obviously.

I'll shut up now.

However, I do have to point out that you're still forgetting that the railgun is an AP1 weapon, giving it a greater chance to destroy a vehicle it pens, and a chance to destroy a vehicle it glances (which the Manticore simply cannot do unless the vehicle is already disarmed and immobilized).

Both of your math is wrong. You *never* have a greater than 100% chance to succeed.

willydstyle wrote:Both of your math is wrong. You *never* have a greater than 100% chance to succeed.

Yes you can.

Keep in mind there are three firers.

I actually said this in my post.

Basically, 118% chance of a pen means "probably one, but more likely to be two than zero."