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Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Seriously? Where is it from, then? I'm curious, now!

I'm more than happy to oblige you there old chap. Around page forty (no page numbers are given) in Xenology, described as the "Taeltis Process of Embryonic Selection". As I said earlier, it allows the algal sac [within which an orkoid embryo gestates] to halt the process and begin anew on a more simpler orkoid lifeform on the basis that the simpler lifeforms, like a snotling or squig, grow faster and produce more spores, more quickly.

Melissia wrote:Hrm. I should probably read the bug dex someday, but I really couldn't be arsed... bugs don't interest me at all.

You probably should if you are going to keep saying that the Tyranids are losing that war, because that codex doesn't say that at all. If says both races are thriving on it (and both should - Tyranids need biomass to make more Tyranids. Orks produce limitless biomass. Neither side would gain the upper hand in terms of numbers).

-Loki- wrote:You probably should if you are going to keep saying that the Tyranids are losing that war, because that codex doesn't say that at all. If says both races are thriving on it (and both should - Tyranids need biomass to make more Tyranids. Orks produce limitless biomass. Neither side would gain the upper hand in terms of numbers).

You're failing to take into account the effect of constant fighting on the Ork system.

IE, constant warfare makes Orks stronger. It does not necessarily make Tyranids stronger, because they aren't really able to adapt their genetic code as quickly as people think they are given the lack of adaptations that use the Ork genetic code despite constantly running into Orks.

I'm merely saying, with my usual bias towards Orks, that Orks really have FAR more to gain from a war of attrition than Tyranids do.

Yes.
This, in general, is a given fact about the Boyz, to the point that Armageddon has been turned into the Ork equivalent of Mecca.

We've been through this before in the last race standing thread.

Melissia wrote:IE, constant warfare makes Orks stronger. It does not necessarily make Tyranids stronger, because they aren't really able to adapt their genetic code as quickly as people think they are given the lack of adaptations that use the Ork genetic code despite constantly running into Orks.

I'm merely saying, with my usual bias towards Orks, that Orks really have FAR more to gain from a war of attrition than Tyranids do.

Oh, I'm quite aware of the whole 'more fighting = stronger Orks'. However, again, something is mentioned in the Tyranid codex that you don't know, because you haven't read it. Tyranids certainly can adapt their genetics that quickly. It describes a war where the Tyranids had significantly altered the makeup of their creatures (not forces, down to the individual creature level) between every attack wave, not over a long period of time. They can adapt themselves into a corner like this - it was abused by the Tau when they realized that shooting synapse creatures is a good idea, and the Tyranids didn't have the biomass left to grow some bigger creatures.

However, looking at the Octarius war, and the extreme adaptability of the Tyranids shown by Hive Fleet Naga (I think, it was one of the smaller hive fleets), its certainly possible that the Tyranids can win. Their extreme adaptability is documented in fluff, ad the only weakness to it is biomass shortage. The fact that they're fighting a race that provides them with effectively limitless biomass, means that weakness in their adaptability is pretty well negated. They've got just as much chance of winning that war as the Orks do.

-Loki- wrote:Tyranids certainly can adapt their genetics that quickly.

They haven't really shown it very well against the Orks. If they can supposedly adapt that quickly, they aren't doing a very damn good job at it. Especially if they're as stupid about it as you described, and still haven't produced much out of the extremely versatile and powerful Ork genetics.

They haven't shown it well against Orks because the fluff just hasn't documented it against Orks.. The only war between them that is described in fluff is the Octarius war. But it has documented their adaptability, against Tau. Where is describes them adapting their entire force between attacks, in a matter of hours. There's no reason for the genetic adaptability to just stop working because they're fighting Orks.

If it does, please direct me to the fluff where is says Ork biomass inhibits their adaptability. Otherwise, I'll take information from multiple pieces of fluff, and arrive at the logical conclusion that Tyranids can adapt very, very quickly. They're not winning the Octarius war, but neither are the Orks. Tyranids don't win every war, but still, neither do Orks. They're both just fighting and getting stronger at about the same rate in that particular war.

-Loki- wrote:They haven't shown it well against Orks because the fluff just hasn't documented it against Orks..

So basically what you're saying is that Orks are so awesome that they can't adapt against them like they can against Tau?

Because it's not just the Orks in Octavius that the Tyranids have fought. They've consumed countless amounts of Ork DNA from across the galaxy when fighting Orks on less populated worlds, yet across the galaxy they're still unable to actually utilize Ork DNA to produce anything that is capable of utilizing the Ork strengths. Oh gee, a biovore. Useful, but they're just an artillery piece. That's not really what you know Orks for.

To each their own.

I always looked at it from this perspective - they consumed Orks, and the only useful thing they could find a use for that they couldn't already do better was having them stand there while a separate organism fired from its back.

Orks are a survivor race that basically already have conquered the galaxy and everyone else is just fighting over small portions of it compared to what the Orks already own Even the C'tan and their Necrontyr slaves, at the height of their power, could not destroy the Orks. If the Tyranids can't find something useful about such a powerful and durable race, then that does not say much good about their skill in utilizing DNA.

Melissia wrote:Even the C'tan and their Necrontyr slaves, at the height of their power, could not destroy the Orks.

Do you have a source or quote to back up that statement?

The Tyranid's use, or lack thereof, of Ork DNA means very little. The hivefleet -Loki- mentions is described as restructuring the assault organisms to have much thicker carapaces in order to resist Tau weaponry so the Tyranids have resilience down pat. Tyranids are also able to create organisms with great strength and which are almost unstoppable in combat, certainly some Tyranids organisms are much, much better than any ork in combat. They are also able to breed vast amounts of creatures at an incredible rate, much faster than orks can grow from spores. So what traits that Orks have are the Tyranids lacking exactly, afterall they're already good in combat, tough, reproduce quickly and easily, they even have their own version of Waaagh! energy, and just like orks the Tyranids contain all the necessary technological information they could ever possibly need, sharing it between hivefleets.

Orks and Tyranids share a lot in common, can we categorically say that the Tyranids had those traits before they encountered orks? No, it may well be that in the process of consuming Ork DNA the Tyranids did become very similar to them but more likely they already possessed those traits anyway so realisitcally Orks have very little to offer the Tyranids.

Melissia wrote:IE, constant warfare makes Orks stronger.

Orks dont get stronger when there DEAD.

And bugs can't adapt when they're dead.

But you know, far stronger enemies than Tyranids were trying to kill Orks for far longer than recorded history.

A dead bug can be dragged back to a digestion pool, broken down, sent back to a Dominatrix, and used to create a new bug. Tyranids can reuse their own biomatter. This is what rippers are for. They eat bodies, Tyranid and foe alike, go back to a digestion pool, get digested along with their biomatter they collected, and regrown. Tyranids have at least as much biomatter as they brough with them unless they lose.

In our current discussion about the Octarius war, this is one reason why the Tyranids are thriving in the war. They're not losing ground, so they're not losing biomatter. They're only gaining it, since they're also killing and digesting Orks, far quicker than Orks grow out of spores.

edit - but hey, speculation arguments get to a critical mass of boring. This one has reached it.

Blood Raven 5th Company wrote:

Melissia wrote:IE, constant warfare makes Orks stronger.

Orks dont get stronger when there DEAD.

Neither do individual 'nids.

Didn't you read the last post?

So?

A dead Ork releases a ton of spores that produces more Orks. And even if they don't die, more Orks still appear.

I'm probably a little late and off-kilter here but
That picture of looted golden throne, FTW
Orks can loot ANYTHING

Melissia wrote:So?

A dead Ork releases a ton of spores that produces more Orks. And even if they don't die, more Orks still appear.

But we have already bin through the fact that nids reproduce faster.

Even if the Orks don't "breed" as fast they have something better, the call of war. As the news of endless war speadsmore Orks will come. In the end it will mean the fighting just keeps going on and on, and that is a WIN for orks. Orks aren't looking to win, they are looking to fight. Total victory is a bad thing in the Orks book, it mean they now have to waste time looking for a good enemy.

alexwars1 wrote:

Blood Raven 5th Company wrote:If orks land on the planet (and it becomes infected by them) and the local marines kill them (renegade ravens) how long would it take them to re amass?

If an average Ork Waaagh! is defeated, but orks remain on the planet, it can take anywhere from a week to a decade for them to fully regroup.

ur piccture is... 'eye catching'

Blood Raven 5th Company wrote:Didn't you read the last post?

I did, yes. It's just that the same argument applies to the respective gains the two species get from fighting. Whereas Tyranids have to digest and re-engineer the absorbed DNA to make any use of it, Orks gain their advantages from victory somewhat quicker, and therefore a stalemate is reached; 'Nids may well reproduce quicker, but the Orks grow bigger faster, hence why the war in Octavius isn't really going anywhere.
Of course, when reinforcements reach that particular empire, them Nids are gonna take a beating.

Gestalt group conciousness versus ... gestalt group conciousness. Does anyone else see the parallel!

I can see this war going on for ever.

The fact that tyranids can adapt extreemly quickly is backed up by fluff, in the war against the tau that has been been mentioned, but iirc it was Hive Fleet Gorgon.

Basically Nids can reproduce quicker than orks, but the promise of endless war will draw more orks, which will balance things out. What i don't understand though is why the hive mind hasn't realised that he could send a few broods of pyrovores to burn ork corpses and the spores they produce, thereby largely reducing the chances of orks producing. Surely if i thought of it, the hive mind must?

Eldar Own wrote:I can see this war going on for ever.

The fact that tyranids can adapt extreemly quickly is backed up by fluff, in the war against the tau that has been been mentioned, but iirc it was Hive Fleet Gorgon.

Basically Nids can reproduce quicker than orks, but the promise of endless war will draw more orks, which will balance things out. What i don't understand though is why the hive mind hasn't realised that he could send a few broods of pyrovores to burn ork corpses and the spores they produce, thereby largely reducing the chances of orks producing. Surely if i thought of it, the hive mind must?

Maybe the hive mind is content to use this hive fleet to keep a lot of orks in a large area of space occupied whilst other tendril fleets make their move in the segmentum? As strategy on a grand scale and the expendability of individual fleets have all been hallmarks of major hive fleet actions before.

Lexx wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:I can see this war going on for ever.

The fact that tyranids can adapt extreemly quickly is backed up by fluff, in the war against the tau that has been been mentioned, but iirc it was Hive Fleet Gorgon.

Basically Nids can reproduce quicker than orks, but the promise of endless war will draw more orks, which will balance things out. What i don't understand though is why the hive mind hasn't realised that he could send a few broods of pyrovores to burn ork corpses and the spores they produce, thereby largely reducing the chances of orks producing. Surely if i thought of it, the hive mind must?

Maybe the hive mind is content to use this hive fleet to keep a lot of orks in a large area of space occupied whilst other tendril fleets make their move in the segmentum? As strategy on a grand scale and the expendability of individual fleets have all been hallmarks of major hive fleet actions before.

Good point. Though, we have been having a big argument about who would win in numbers, so would the hive mind sacrifice a large part of his force, and potentially give the orks an advantage?

If the hive mind doesn't sense that it is losing, why give up that endless supply of biomatter? Hive Fleet Gorgon is at an endless buffet. They can recycle their own troops, and use dead Orks as well. While more Orks also turn up to fight, and the war keeps going, they Hive Fleet is growing as well. Giving up that food source would be stupid. All they really need is a carpet of rippers going over the no mans lands of the battlefields, grabbing any Orks that pop up, between battles.

You know, being on the receiving end of a Waagh! is no joke, even for the 'nids. If, as I theorised, more Orks do come, the pressure will build on the nids to win faster, before more greenskins show up and tip the balance completely. This could very likely lead to the defeat of the splinter fleet.

That's true - but being on the receiving end of a hive fleet invasion is no joke either. As long as the Tyranids don't start losing, all those extra Orks are just providing fuel to increase the size of the Hive Fleet. Even if they don't need to make more Tyranids, they can store that biomass for later. It becomes an eternal cycle of 'more Orks turn up, the Hive Fleet gets more biomass, make more Tyranids, more Orks show up...' until something comes to break that deadlock.