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Destrado wrote:

After the amount of insult coming from nearly everyone... from pompous, to nazi, you'd have to think he's being specific instead of intentionally provocative.

He opened the door on that one himself.

I wouldn't play someone (who isn't starting...) that plays like the ones Pacific faces. No arms, movement trays for buggies, call me snobish (that seems to be the trend) but if I can't buy a miniature, either I convert it, or I don't field it. If it's for test purposes, I'll try to field something that could be used to proxy it (I wouldn't mind someone using 'Koptas as buggies, if warned beforehand). Playing against me with bases, saying they're models (even if someone said it was Frodo or Tau Stealth Suits) and having nothing on top means I most likely won't play that person.

Reductio ad absurdum....gotta love it.

Now, on the subject of time and hobby - unless they're very specific cases, like someone in this thread who works two jobs - people can't use time as an excuse, there are people from all sorts of social echelons with different time tables that manage none-the-less to paint, even if it's just a handful of miniatures.

They shouldn't have to use anything as an excuse.

If a person can't paint or doesn't like to, he shouldn't be ostracized for that, he should be helped, but even people with some adversities - which have also shown up in this thread - manage to paint their armies to a tabletop quality, so it really isn't that impossible as some people would have you believe. If said person doesn't like painting... It's a bit trickier, but could be worked around.

And if they neither need, nor want help....shouldn't you just butt out of it?

The OP, and some posters (me included) have a problem against a very specific set of conditions to which drawing comparisons isn't simple, nor fair.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Please elaborate.

I prefer to face people with painted armies but I would play against unpainted armies for the right reasons, ie, starting out, not much time, doesn't like painting... Someone who does it to play the latest "flavour of the month" army, not so much.

Thank God that you can mindread the intentions of other people then.

Steelmage99 wrote:Thank God that you can mindread the intentions of other people then.

Why do you have to read minds?

You don't know who the guys are in your area that only play unpainted, FOTM armies? It doesn't take telepathy to notice these things if you're paying attention.

Yes, in that case it might be quite easy, but where do you draw the line when it is not so clear.

Obviously it is easy when the person in question shows up with yet another unpainted/semi-assembled army every time another codex comes out. Bully for you.

I am talking about the grey areas......or when people just plain don't enjoy to paint.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Destrado wrote:

After the amount of insult coming from nearly everyone... from pompous, to nazi, you'd have to think he's being specific instead of intentionally provocative.

He opened the door on that one himself.

Which you didn't lose time to jump on. I can understand that, because nothing is more legitimate than calling someone names because you don't agree with them.

I wouldn't play someone (who isn't starting...) that plays like the ones Pacific faces. No arms, movement trays for buggies, call me snobish (that seems to be the trend) but if I can't buy a miniature, either I convert it, or I don't field it. If it's for test purposes, I'll try to field something that could be used to proxy it (I wouldn't mind someone using 'Koptas as buggies, if warned beforehand). Playing against me with bases, saying they're models (even if someone said it was Frodo or Tau Stealth Suits) and having nothing on top means I most likely won't play that person.

Reductio ad absurdum....gotta love it.

Steelmage99 wrote:Yes, in that case it might be quite easy, but where do you draw the line when it is not so clear.

I'm pretty sure most people that prefer to play painted armies have said that they make exceptions.

I know I did. For me, the key term there is prefer.

Destrado wrote:

A lot of rubbish.

I'm done with this. Bye.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Destrado wrote:

Too much for Steelmage99 to cope with EDIT: (Without insulting him)

I'm done with this. Bye.

Bon voyage.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It doesn't bother me terribly, but I can see why it would.

I don't field my army unless everything is completely painted and done (which is why I don't game very often!).... But right now...I'm getting better and better at painting, so I feel compelled to repaint all of my army every couple of months...I think I'm wasting my time

Wow...

Now, my point was lost in a ton of posts.

So I will re-iterate.

How many of us, who are for the pro-painted side, have had to deal with local stores/GWs etc where the rules were that you had to have your minis painted to play? How much is that shading our perceptions?

It's interesting to me, that my opinion probably comes from the fact that I wasnt allowed to play at my local GW if my minis were not painted to minimum store standard. (2-3 colors, and at least a bit of flock on the base)

TBH, my opinion is probably based on the whole. "I had to paint my army to be able to play, why the hell should you be able to play with an unpainted army feeling"

It is always cool and fun to see a fully painted army on the table, and I do paint some of my models. However simply do not have that much time to spend 24/7 painting and I enjoy playing the game more than painting the models. I'd much prefer to play.

Also, read your primer bottle closely because on mine it said on the label that it was clinically proven to cause cancer. Not joking.

We are starting to get some alerts off this thread.

This thread is getting a tad flamy-I got Ninja'd... by a MOD.
People are different.
People do the hobby in different ways.
Some people like painting but not playing.
Some people love gaming but not painting.
Some people love conversions but don't like painting...
etc.
If somone has obviously picked a FotM army and is never gonna paint it then fine, you can think what you want.
But, if you see an unpainted army and act on a prejudice of them that you have already formed in your mind it's not only unfair on them but also you're being a nasty human being.

Destrado wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Destrado wrote:

Too much for Steelmage99 to cope with EDIT: (Without insulting him)

I'm done with this. Bye.

Bon voyage.

Veni vidi vici.

Also,

de gustibus non est disputandum

De gustibus aut bene, aut nihil.

Kidding.

@wolfshadow - I can't really say anything about painting rules for stores. We don't have a FLGS or GW store. Me and my group play on the basis that if we paint it, we play it. Not painted was never an issue. I take an awful lot of time painting, wanting to use it in a battle is an incentive to paint regularly. That is me and my group's take on it.
I for one wouldn't enforce it on outsiders.

How about we stop using dead languages?

I think "bad hobbyist" is as harsh as it is subjective.

I personally find playing much more enjoyable than painting and modelling.

I'm sure almost all of us prefer playing against painted armies, it looks nicer.

Though thinking less of a person's character because they don't share the same values as you?

Well, i'd certainly rather have an unpainted army than be that person.

I just like having good laughs with my friends, so, painting is an unrequired chore. I paint when I play in tournaments, that's it.

purplefood wrote:This thread is getting a tad flamy-I got Ninja'd... by a MOD.
People are different.
People do the hobby in different ways.
Some people like painting but not playing.
Some people love gaming but not painting.
Some people love conversions but don't like painting...
etc.
If somone has obviously picked a FotM army and is never gonna paint it then fine, you can think what you want.
But, if you see an unpainted army and act on a prejudice of them that you have already formed in your mind it's not only unfair on them but also you're being a nasty human being.

Again, personal attack.

Not necessary.

I'll re-iterate my point, which no one has addressed.
5 years ago, when I was last a part of the hobby, most stores had a minimum 3 color rule. IE, to feild your army on the table, you had to have your army painted a minimum of 3 colors, and it had to be minimally based. (Most were either flock or sand)

This idea that feilding an unpainted army is ok at a store seems to be a relatively new thing to me. Even the 12-13 year olds who played abided by this rule @ all of the local stores.

So I think those of us who were not allowed to play with unpainted armies have a certain amount of bias against those who feild unpainted army.

Personal pride on my own end prohibits me from fielding an army thats not at least basically painted.

Is this rule no longer in effect?

Will GW stores let you play with an unpainted army?

Will tournaments allow you to play with an unpainted army?

Games with close friends aside, when did playing with an unpainted army become an acceptable practice?

wolfshadow wrote:Games with close friends aside, when did playing with an unpainted army become an acceptable practice?

I blame Ard Boyz.

wolfshadow wrote: My GW where I started playing had a 3 color minimum for an army, and they wanted them based as well.

Thats complete bull. Not only would I never spend a single dime in a place with that attitude, but I would make every effort to divert other players to other retail or online sources. If they want things finished to a certain quality level then they can provide them, or deal with waht i bring. Now if this was a private clubs rules that would be fine...but for a business to make demands like that...far to snobby and unacceptable.


Personally, I prefer to have everything completely built and painted before I use it. Doesnt always work out that way, but I try. Now its been about 12 years since Ive played anything in a retail store. I do all my gaming at my house or a friends.

I could care less about how much or how well someone elses army is painted, but being partially assembled would be annoying. Not only would they need to be clear about what each unit was, but I might make them park a small note next to each one with the major details just so I dont have to keep asking or guessing. Also keeps things form changing during the game.

I feel the same way, but thats because I am a modeler first, a painter second, and a gamer as a very distant third. Many folks enjoy playing the game much more than the other two aspects of the hobby, and paint doesn't win a game. <shrug>


Just as an observation, its impossible to "ruin" a mini if you are using acrylic paints (provided you don't do something dumb like try to use Teflon based sealants DOH). I'm on my 3rd paint job for most of my mini's. Its ALOT cheaper than buying hundreds of dollars worth of mini's every time you want to try a new paintjob.


My only problem is with folks that try to use non-gw parts for conversion without proper attention to the grimdark. I honest to god think that ANYONE can make a decent looking conversion. Painting....meh thats another story. Imagination and innovation are something I respect in other artists regardless of the finish on the final product. I never picked up a tube of GS or a modeling scalpel until a couple of weeks ago, so I'm not sympathetic to lazy modelers.

Mad4Minis wrote:

wolfshadow wrote: My GW where I started playing had a 3 color minimum for an army, and they wanted them based as well.

Thats complete bull. Not only would I never spend a single dime in a place with that attitude, but I would make every effort to divert other players to other retail or online sources. If they want things finished to a certain quality level then they can provide them, or deal with waht i bring. Now if this was a private clubs rules that would be fine...but for a business to make demands like that...far to snobby and unacceptable.


Personally, I prefer to have everything completely built and painted before I use it. Doesnt always work out that way, but I try. Now its been about 12 years since Ive played anything in a retail store. I do all my gaming at my house or a friends.

I could care less about how much or how well someone elses army is painted, but being partially assembled would be annoying. Not only would they need to be clear about what each unit was, but I might make them park a small note next to each one with the major details just so I dont have to keep asking or guessing. Also keeps things form changing during the game.

So where do you draw the line?

Some of us draw it at what I would call minimum standard.

You draw it at assembled.

We've had people who want tp lay the game with movement trays as models.

Everyone has their line where they say to themselves.... "This is just too much."

You want to draw people away from the only local place to play? Doesnt seem that sensible to me. There is, as far as I can tell, about 3 places in my city that I can regularly get a game in, if I'm interested. All 3 are 30+ minutes commute time via transit. If I want to get a game in, I pretty much have to play at the local GW. Why would I want to drive their customers away? So I have no place to play? I'd rather play at a place that has a painted army standard for gaming, than not play at all.

I started the hobby, and the standard was 'painted army'. So that's the standard that I feel is proper. Others obviously differ. Its interesting how vehement the opinions are.

To the OP's point, I've never been *required* to field painted armies to play, and I've plonked down my share of primered or unpainted armies while playing weeknight pickup games. That said, I also remember feverishly painting my Tyranid and Ork armies to bring them to three color minimums to meet RTT requirements when I first started playing.

I would never refuse to play someone simply on the criteria that their army was or was not painted. During the "debugging" process when starting a new army there's a time where you will by necessity field models in various states of build and paint. That's normal and expected and yet another part of the hobby.

Is the real question is "does the hobby as a whole suffer when people stop caring about paint"? In some sense perhaps it does. Think about your first demo game where those beautifully painted Ultramarines duke it out with those Nids, Orks or Dark Eldar. It helped capture your imagination to see them in full color and 3D.

I look at it a lot like racing: Some people like SCCA road racing, and some like NASCAR. Now it does take some level of talent to go around in circles really fast, but I think it takes another level of talent to go both left AND right.

wolfshadow wrote:Wow...

Now, my point was lost in a ton of posts.

So I will re-iterate.

How many of us, who are for the pro-painted side, have had to deal with local stores/GWs etc where the rules were that you had to have your minis painted to play? How much is that shading our perceptions?

It's interesting to me, that my opinion probably comes from the fact that I wasnt allowed to play at my local GW if my minis were not painted to minimum store standard. (2-3 colors, and at least a bit of flock on the base)

TBH, my opinion is probably based on the whole. "I had to paint my army to be able to play, why the hell should you be able to play with an unpainted army feeling"

I to started off in a store that pressed the importance of the painting side of the hobby. 3 colours and basing done minimum to play unless you actually bought it and assembled it that week from the store. Even then the rules were bent a bit to include partially finished armies that were being made progress on. But people leaving entire armies assembled but not a single model painted for months if not years at a time wasn't tolerated. It's a rule that's stuck with me in my own preferences. As I said in an earlier post. For me I feel its a waste for a model to be bought, assembled and just left grey or primed. Never to be given the justice of a paint scheme. Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it. Most of the people I have regularly gamed with over the years will prefer to play against a painted rather than unpainted force. It doesn't seem to be that uncommon a phenomenon. I have only refused to play against 4 people ever I think. Most were to do with the individual being suspected of cheating or the odd TFG. But I drew the line at one guy who basically had miniatures from 4 different armies thrown together as a counts as space marine force. Ill play against unpainted armies if there are no other alternatives and there's time for a game. But if more and more people are getting into GW games just for the fights you always have Vassal I guess.

UsdiThunder wrote:
The more poeple into our hobby the stronger it becomes. The elitists are a big reason why 40k is not a bigger hobby. People are willing to spend $37.25 to buy a 10 pack of marines, but not put up with someone looking down thier noses at them because they'd rather get to playing, than paint their models.

+1

wolfshadow wrote:

purplefood wrote:This thread is getting a tad flamy-I got Ninja'd... by a MOD.
People are different.
People do the hobby in different ways.
Some people like painting but not playing.
Some people love gaming but not painting.
Some people love conversions but don't like painting...
etc.
If somone has obviously picked a FotM army and is never gonna paint it then fine, you can think what you want.
But, if you see an unpainted army and act on a prejudice of them that you have already formed in your mind it's not only unfair on them but also you're being a nasty human being.

Again, personal attack.

It's not a personal attack. When i said you i meant it as a generalised you not a specific you.

Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it.

It IS their right to ignore the painting side of the hobby, and they should expect little or no issue to come of it.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it.

It IS their right to ignore the painting side of the hobby, and they should expect little or no issue to come of it.

Why?

TBH, I think that this dumbs down the hobby. If a 6 or 7 year old kid can get a model up to store level paint, then why should other people be excused from that?

Is it really that hard to grab a can of sprayapint, and 2 bottles of a couple of different colors to do eyes and shoulderpads? I mean, thats the standard that I'daccept.

I did the Necrons I had in the space of about 2-3 hours for a 1.5 K force.

You can always go back and do detail work later.

I really don't think that asking someone to put 3 colors on a model so you can play in a store game is that much to ask. (Again, games against close friends, this goes out the window.)

Avatar 720 wrote:

Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it.

It IS their right to ignore the painting side of the hobby, and they should expect little or no issue to come of it.

The number of threads in which people who like painted armies denigrate the practice of playing with unpainted armies, shows that this expectation is entirely unfounded in reality.

wolfshadow wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it.

It IS their right to ignore the painting side of the hobby, and they should expect little or no issue to come of it.

Why?

TBH, I think that this dumbs down the hobby. If a 6 or 7 year old kid can get a model up to store level paint, then why should other people be excused from that?

Is it really that hard to grab a can of sprayapint, and 2 bottles of a couple of different colors to do eyes and shoulderpads? I mean, thats the standard that I'daccept.

I did the Necrons I had in the space of about 2-3 hours for a 1.5 K force.

You can always go back and do detail work later.

I really don't think that asking someone to put 3 colors on a model so you can play in a store game is that much to ask. (Again, games against close friends, this goes out the window.)

I think a better questions iw why shouldn't other people be excused? Last time I checked, those models were bought and assembled by them, and nothing in the rulebook or army books states that models must be painted in order to play the game.

Besides, what you're saying has nothing to do with the right they have to not paint their own models or how there shouldn't be an issue from it. Rules-wise, paint isn't stated as being mandatory; they have fulfilled all requirements in order to play the game and the only thing standing between them are people who wish to impose further restrictions based on personal preference.

wolfshadow wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it.

It IS their right to ignore the painting side of the hobby, and they should expect little or no issue to come of it.

Why?

TBH, I think that this dumbs down the hobby. If a 6 or 7 year old kid can get a model up to store level paint, then why should other people be excused from that?

Is it really that hard to grab a can of sprayapint, and 2 bottles of a couple of different colors to do eyes and shoulderpads? I mean, thats the standard that I'daccept.

I did the Necrons I had in the space of about 2-3 hours for a 1.5 K force.

You can always go back and do detail work later.

I really don't think that asking someone to put 3 colors on a model so you can play in a store game is that much to ask. (Again, games against close friends, this goes out the window.)

When I paint my armies, which is usually many years after purchasing them, I try hard for them to come out incredibly well.

I am sorry if I don't feel like sitting down one afternoon and whipping up a sub-par army. I don't have the time required to paint properly, so I do it over a long time, and I plan it out carefully.

I would enjoy to regard everyone in my gamestore (8 regulars, about 4-7 rare-shows) as a close friend, I enjoy joking and just having a good time over 40k.

(Necrons are hardly a suitable example for time/painting! )

Element206 wrote:

Lennysmash wrote:Steelmage QFT, the equivalent is saying something along the lines of you're only a true chess player if you carved the pieces yourself.

mmm, no, thats not what anyone is inferring. how exactly did you equivocate the message so badly? There is no level of expectation to carve your own chess pieces.

it would be more along the lines of someone going to a ski resort to walk down the mountain. Sure you can, there are no signs posted saying you cant....but thats not what the ski resort is intended for.

And frankly if the guy wants to walk down the mountain mind your own business.

The painter`s faction (lets call them that) are irking people because they are like the guy who tells you coffee is bad for you when your just trying to have your morning cup, or the guy that tells you how to raise your kids because he thinks he`s doing a better job with his. Or the religious zealot that thinks you are going to hell for listening to rock and roll and lets you know it.

This what I think it boils down to. Painters: I appreciate your view about painted armies. I like painted armies too and nice terrain. It does enhance the game for me. FOR ME. Now I don't think you're Nazis (that term always bugs me) or elitists. Perfectionists sure and maybe obsessive compulsive but you guys are lecturing people on how they should play according to YOUR views and wher you are at in the hobby. That`s where you`ve gone wrong. Your points are valid but no one really wants to hear them except you guys. Look at the title of this thread and tell me it isn`t provocative.

The non-painters faction. It is your right to not paint or to paint or to play with your models in the cat box. Calling people elitist or Nazis isn`t going to change them. You don`t have to play them either. Love the game the way you want. Don`t be insulted if groups or tourney's have painting standards to be able to play. Their rules, so you have to abide by them.

To the others who paint, don`t paint and could care less what people think and just want to have fun. Keep at it.

And remember this fact: Painting enhances the game. Just like the fluff does. But neither is really truly required to actually play the game.

Live and let live.