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Meh, I prefer to play against at least a minimally painted army. But then again, I'm coming from a time where you HAD to paint in order to be able to play. My GW where I started playing had a 3 color minimum for an army, and they wanted them based as well.

Heck, my painting was not that great.

liam0404 wrote:But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?

if this is directed at me, I think you are misconstruing my message. I never mentioned anything about my satisfaction. This should be about your satisfaction. IF you wish to play with an army that anyone and everyone can replicate, that is your prerogative. Whether you would like to accept it or not, painting IS part of the game. I dont recall ever seeing a codex omitting the mention of painting your characters; Im also pretty sure most places and tournaments you enter require the most rudimentay and minimal effort. So if you choose not to paint thats fine, but the anemic excuses from everyone are sounding redundant...why does it create such personal calamity to paint your characters (handicaps or disabilities aside)?

--If your question wasnt directed at me, then disregard this message.

Ultimately they are your models and you should do what you like with them. Personally I never put a model down that is not at least primed.

When I first started the hobby it was build, prime, and play. Now that I have settled in more to the hobby and done some exploration I enjoy the hobby aspect much more than I previously did. Though I am not a great painter I try to put them to a cohesive TT standard. I prefer to play against people who have a painted army but I never say no to gray models either!

I find it interesting that people who don't enjoy painting aren't "allowed" to say just that.

Apparently saying that, is met with a barrage of "you could find the time if you really cared".
But what if the person doesn't really care, but just enjoys the game itself?

Much in the same way that some people say that they don't care about winning.


Why is it that it is OK to say; "If you don't prioritize this certain aspect of the hobby, then you are lazy/disrespectfull/a WAAC player."?


Why is it OK to prioritize painting and become a "hobby saint", a "gamers gamer" and a "true gentleman of leisure", and it is of course perfectly OK to refuse to play one of the unwashed (unpainted) horde.?

But if you prioritize the gaming aspect of the hobby you are a WAAC, rules lawyer and a TFG, and refusing to play somebody based on tactical merits in the game is the ultimate jerk-elitism.


Nobody should make themselves masters over how others enjoy the hobby.
Doing so is the only truly jerk move.

Saying; "I don't like seeing unpainted/badly painted models on the table" is just the same as saying; "I don't like seeing unplayed/badly played models on the table".

Steelmage99 wrote:I find it interesting that people who don't enjoy painting aren't "allowed" to say just that.

Apparently saying that, is met with a barrage of "you could find the time if you really cared".
But what if the person doesn't really care, but just enjoys the game itself?

Much in the same way that some people say that they don't care about winning.


Why is it that it is OK to say; "If you don't prioritize this certain aspect of the hobby, then you are lazy/disrespectfull/a WAAC player."?


Why is it OK to prioritize painting and become a "hobby saint", a "gamers gamer" and a "true gentleman of leisure", and it is of course perfectly OK to refuse to play one of the unwashed (unpainted) horde.?

But if you prioritize the gaming aspect of the hobby you are a WAAC, rules lawyer and a TFG, and refusing to play somebody based on tactical merits in the game is the ultimate jerk-elitism.


Nobody should make themselves masters over how others enjoy the hobby.
Doing so is the only truly jerk move.

Saying; "I don't like seeing unpainted/badly painted models on the table" is just the same as saying; "I don't like seeing unplayed/badly played models on the table".

-- im not going to look through all 5 pages of this thread, but can you show me an example of these 'attacks' occuring where painters are bashing non-painters? In fact, from the posts ive read, it seems quite the contrary. the second post mentions the creator of this thread being a nazi and elitist? That seems ok to you? I believe each side is voicing their opinions, but seems like the 'non-painters' are taking more offense to this topic....hmm.

Steelmage QFT, the equivalent is saying something along the lines of you're only a true chess player if you carved the pieces yourself.

Those who don't enjoy painting should have the right to say so, just as those who don't enjoy playing the game should also be able to say so. Dividing this hobby into gamers and painters is a redundant practice, it serves no-one. The really measure of who you should play is whether a person enters into the spirit of the hobby, not whether they are good at it.

Please remember people have enough troubles in the world without someone dictating how they enjoy there own hobby. And it is just that, a hobby, not a job.

One last point for this rant, just because someone plays to win doesn't necessarily mean they are not also playing for fun. If you get a prat that brings in overpowered armies just to win then don't play them but don't automatically say that just because somebody's army isn't painted to YOUR idea of table top that they are unworthy to face you.

Lennysmash wrote:Steelmage QFT, the equivalent is saying something along the lines of you're only a true chess player if you carved the pieces yourself.

mmm, no, thats not what anyone is inferring. how exactly did you equivocate the message so badly? There is no level of expectation to carve your own chess pieces.

it would be more along the lines of someone going to a ski resort to walk down the mountain. Sure you can, there are no signs posted saying you cant....but thats not what the ski resort is intended for.

When I started 40k, I didnt have anyone to play with. I actuallyjust fell in love with the fluff and the hobby, even though I had no prior hobby experience. So I got AoBR and started to learn. I just recently started playing after over a year of just enjoying the hobby. I'll field whatever I have, even if it's unfinished, but I love the hobby very much and that is the prime focus for me. Some of my friends dont enjoy the painting as much but I dont let that bother me. Theyre enjoying the game in their own way. In the end, its just about having fun ^^.

Element206 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I find it interesting that people who don't enjoy painting aren't "allowed" to say just that.

Apparently saying that, is met with a barrage of "you could find the time if you really cared".
But what if the person doesn't really care, but just enjoys the game itself?
*snip*

Saying; "I don't like seeing unpainted/badly painted models on the table" is just the same as saying; "I don't like seeing unplayed/badly played models on the table".

-- im not going to look through all 5 pages of this thread, but can you show me an example of these 'attacks' occuring where painters are bashing non-painters? In fact, from the posts ive read, it seems quite the contrary. the second post mentions the creator of this thread being a nazi and elitist? That seems ok to you? I believe each side is voicing their opinions, but seems like the 'non-painters' are taking more offense to this topic....hmm.

No, it is certainly not OK to call the OP a nazi and an elitist......and that is my point in case you missed it. It is not OK for anybody to call anybody anything.

In regards to who is taking offense....well, what did you expect? This is a seriously biased thread with a clear intent.
Of course, the targets of such a thread will react.

And some other kind of people might react too. People like me, for instance. People like me who react when anybody tries to tell me how to enjoy my hobby.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Element206 wrote:

Lennysmash wrote:Steelmage QFT, the equivalent is saying something along the lines of you're only a true chess player if you carved the pieces yourself.

mmm, no, thats not what anyone is inferring. how exactly did you equivocate the message so badly? There is no level of expectation to carve your own chess pieces.

it would be more along the lines of someone going to a ski resort to walk down the mountain. Sure you can, there are no signs posted saying you cant....but thats not what the ski resort is intended for.

No, thats not it either.

It is like going to a ski resort to ski, but being looked down upon because you are not wearing the matching outfit and the really cool glasses. You just happens to enjoy skiing, but it isn't good enough to enjoy skiing while wearing mismatching pants, a fleece and a random sweatshirt thrown on top.

To the OP.

So what your saying is it was OK for YOU to play with a ugly/unpainted/badly painted army when you started.
But now that your take the time paint your army you will not play ugly/unpainted/badly painted army, WOW talk about jerkish, what if they did that to you when you had that type of army. Good thing some people just play for fun or you wouldn't of played when you started. Your the reason gamer are looked down on by nongamer as nerds and geeks. Basically the same class of people that make nonjocks think all jocks they are all dumb as rocks.

I don't really enjoy painting models. I do enjoy painting scenery.
But, when i do try painting i can do uie well and really enjoy the results.
Personally i find the easiest way of painting and use that.

Personally I won't play with an all grey army, I have to paint something I love painting, however my goals shift. Right now I am trying to get ready for a tourney so I am painting daemons at a solid pace, however friends want to play against my BA since I am the only local guy who has them, but so far only DC is painted.

Ergo, I rather play painted but depending on what I need to bring to the table determines at what state everything is at.

For those who say that playing with an unpainted army is fine: Try playing in a tournament. Let me know how that works for you. Many stores and clubs require that your models be painted to a minimum standard. It's how I started the hobby. And the ability to play an army once it hit a certain standard was what drove me to paint.

Pride in my work, and seeing better looking models that I was playing against drove me to paint better.

If your local gaming groupl allows you to play with unpainted models, great. Enjoy your gaming.

Since we're all in a sharing mood and it is the holidays in all, I'll bless you all with my 2 cents.

It's a game. It's marketed as a game and without the game GW would not be in business because there's no way people would collect battle forces just for a "hobby"; one or two models, maybe but whole armies? No. Be honest, you know it's true.

The way some of you say you act, I bet you were beat up a great deal as you were growing up because if you said half of the nonsense you're spouting here to someone's face, 1 in 5 would happily push yours in for you. Seriously, you can only be so much of an ass before someone calls you on it and bullying 12 year olds in a game store doesn't give you any moral high ground. Zero.

Point of fact. When I buy something with my money, it's my purcyase and no one on this earth has the right to tell me what to do with it. I could go into a game store, buy a baneblade, take it home and set it on fire and to hell with all of you if you don't like it. So then, it's my property, if I choose not to paint it, that's my choice and has nothing to do with you. If you choose not to play me because of that fact, I'm afraid that makes you a small person because you can't get over yourself long enough to maybe enjoy a game....at a place where games are played. I don't know about your FLGS but not a whole lot of "hobbying" happens in any that I've been to, just the playing of games...you know, the G in FLGS but then maybe I'm wrong and you only have FLHS in your community, places where likeminded people gather and feel all superior to people that don't like/want to paint little plastic (and sometimes metal) army men.

Personally, both of my 40k armies are completely painted and my ancient fantasy army (chaos dwarfs) is painted as well. According to you, I should not be allowed to play with my recent army, Ogre Kingdoms, because I only have 5 painted figures with the rest just bodies on a base. You see, I will paint them but also want to play with them before all of them are painted...why would I drop several hundred dollars buying an army except to play with it?

In conclusion, I am truly happy that none of you frequent the FLGS that I do because the first time you were a rude, arrogant piece of toe-jam to me, I would invite you outside for a discussion.

Well, my spleen's vented.

***End Rant***

Happy turkey day to those on this side of the pond and I might be pursuaded to mail pieces of my wife's sopapilla cheesecake to those on the other side of the pond for proper compensation.

Quick question: For those who game regularly at GW stores... is that 3 color rule still in effect? Just curious.

wolfshadow wrote:Queick question: For those who game regularly at GW stores... is that 3 color rule still in effect? Just curious.

I've seen it in effect in one or two stores. Its a lot less common though in newer branches.

I'm just gonna throw in my random assortment of change.

I will admit I do make excuses not to paint, or when I do try to paint the other people in the house gripe about it since nothing gets done around the house when I do. But I want to try to paint when I get the chance.
I realize my army hasn't been close to fully painted since I got it back towards the start of '09.
But meh, I am painting it slowly. When I get new models I prefer to put them together right away instead of leaving them sit. If I have the primer, I prime them shortly after I'm satisfied with how they are put together.
Painting however, is harder for me to do, not because I don't like, but because the modeling aspect has a bit higher priority then the painting. As I have stated before though. I intend on having my army up to table top quality before I go to LGS next. I do appreciate those that have a fully painted army battling me even though mine isn't finished. I take no side in this argument anymore. I see no point in it since both sides will keep arguing and get nowhere, for the most part.

zadelistol wrote:I'm just gonna throw in my random assortment of change.

I will admit I do make excuses not to paint, or when I do try to paint the other people in the house gripe about it since nothing gets done around the house when I do. But I want to try to paint when I get the chance.
I realize my army hasn't been close to fully painted since I got it back towards the start of '09.
But meh, I am painting it slowly. When I get new models I prefer to put them together right away instead of leaving them sit. If I have the primer, I prime them shortly after I'm satisfied with how they are put together.
Painting however, is harder for me to do, not because I don't like, but because the modeling aspect has a bit higher priority then the painting. As I have stated before though. I intend on having my army up to table top quality before I go to LGS next. I do appreciate those that have a fully painted army battling me even though mine isn't finished. I take no side in this argument anymore. I see no point in it since both sides will keep arguing and get nowhere, for the most part.

Your doing just fine. No one is asking for fully painted army just gradual progress and an interest in the entire hobby, not just powergaming with ugly models. Keep up the gradual work good or bad

agnosto wrote:Since we're all in a sharing mood and it is the holidays in all, I'll bless you all with my 2 cents.

It's a game. It's marketed as a game and without the game GW would not be in business because there's no way people would collect battle forces just for a "hobby"; one or two models, maybe but whole armies? No. Be honest, you know it's true.

The way some of you say you act, I bet you were beat up a great deal as you were growing up because if you said half of the nonsense you're spouting here to someone's face, 1 in 5 would happily push yours in for you. Seriously, you can only be so much of an ass before someone calls you on it and bullying 12 year olds in a game store doesn't give you any moral high ground. Zero.

Point of fact. When I buy something with my money, it's my purcyase and no one on this earth has the right to tell me what to do with it. I could go into a game store, buy a baneblade, take it home and set it on fire and to hell with all of you if you don't like it. So then, it's my property, if I choose not to paint it, that's my choice and has nothing to do with you. If you choose not to play me because of that fact, I'm afraid that makes you a small person because you can't get over yourself long enough to maybe enjoy a game....at a place where games are played. I don't know about your FLGS but not a whole lot of "hobbying" happens in any that I've been to, just the playing of games...you know, the G in FLGS but then maybe I'm wrong and you only have FLHS in your community, places where likeminded people gather and feel all superior to people that don't like/want to paint little plastic (and sometimes metal) army men.

Personally, both of my 40k armies are completely painted and my ancient fantasy army (chaos dwarfs) is painted as well. According to you, I should not be allowed to play with my recent army, Ogre Kingdoms, because I only have 5 painted figures with the rest just bodies on a base. You see, I will paint them but also want to play with them before all of them are painted...why would I drop several hundred dollars buying an army except to play with it?

In conclusion, I am truly happy that none of you frequent the FLGS that I do because the first time you were a rude, arrogant piece of toe-jam to me, I would invite you outside for a discussion.

Well, my spleen's vented.

***End Rant***

Happy turkey day to those on this side of the pond and I might be pursuaded to mail pieces of my wife's sopapilla cheesecake to those on the other side of the pond for proper compensation.

Man read my other posts before you berate me. You have me pegged all wrong. Your making progress, your clearly not a TFG whos throwing whatever he can on the table to win a game (obiously since you play ogres ), if your making progress ill play you finnished models or not...

Noir wrote:To the OP.

So what your saying is it was OK for YOU to play with a ugly/unpainted/badly painted army when you started.
But now that your take the time paint your army you will not play ugly/unpainted/badly painted army, WOW talk about jerkish, what if they did that to you when you had that type of army. Good thing some people just play for fun or you wouldn't of played when you started. Your the reason gamer are looked down on by nongamer as nerds and geeks. Basically the same class of people that make nonjocks think all jocks they are all dumb as rocks.

hmmm again with the name calling... please read my other posts before addressing me so pretentiously. I clearly stated earlier, new players obiously have that excuse... they are still working on their army and should be helped not shunned. If youve been playing for years and you havent touched your army in months, yes Im going to avoid playing you for someone who cares more about all forms of the hobby.

People can choose to paint there armys or not, and I can choose not to play them for being lazy, seems fair. Now the mods are already all over this thread lets keep it polite.

I've played both paths, even in tournaments (my army was just 2 bases short of finished), and I've played entired primed armies. But I've seen a lot worse, unfinished land raiders, people putting simply unfinished models down, picking them up and finishing them ingame.....

If both sides are okay with it, its fine. I don't mind myself if players have unpainted/unfinished models on the table. Its just in the way you feel you play the game.

Laughing God wrote:

People can choose to paint there armys or not, and I can choose not to play them for being lazy, seems fair. Now the mods are already all over this thread lets keep it polite.

See? There you go again.

Calling people who don't enjoy/prioritize painting lazy, and in the same post as you complain about name calling, no less.

That IS being pompous....and no amount of "Now the mods are already all over this thread lets keep it polite" is going to change that.

My not so FLGS doesn't allow dipped models or substandard models. Most of the time they know when you bought 'em, if you're back in a week with a base coat and hastily painted details, they won't play you. I try to paint a little bit better than tabletop quality, especially if I really like the model\s.

That is very friendly

ChrisCP wrote:That is very friendly

Happy?

Heehee, thanks

I have a friend who's an donkey-cave, but it's ok because he's my donkey-cave. It annoys a little bit how he has enough money two own atleast 2000 pts of Blood Angels, IG and Black Templars. Now he's also convinced that he will go Greyknights when or if the come out any time soon. The thing is, he hasn't painted a single one of his own models. Yet he has the courage to ask people like me to paint a librarian for him.

The Green Git wrote:

One thing I have observed in my local gaming scene is there are certain traits that seem to come out in the less hobby oriented folks. Since their main goal is winning the game they tend to be rather cut throat and some of the most heated in-game arguments I've witnessed have come from those that pay others to build and paint their armies. On the other side of the coin one of the most laid-back players I know is also the best painter.

Now this is not to say that all hobbyists are fun to play against, and all purchasers of pre-painted armies are jerks. In my experience it's just tended towards that equation. Your mileage may vary.

This has been my experience as well. Playing against an orc player some time ago who had a horde of unpainted (and un-armed, as in 'no arms', not just no weapons!), and with WFB movement trays representing war buggies. I felt that if he had had a shovel, he would have used it to move his troops. When they went bundling into combat, some of my marines went flying - models I had spent a great deal of time painting. I think had he had any kind of concept of time spent painting then he would not have acted with such crass regard for other peoples work. That was one thing, at least, which I think you would have not seen back when GW insisted on painted miniatures if you are going to play with them in store.
In my opinion, I think the hobby has suffered from it.

I went into my LGS a while ago for a 'veterans' night (although most were probably 15-20 or so) - one person out of about 7 or 8 had a properly painted and modelled army. The rest were an eclectic mix of unpainted and even unassembled miniatures, thrown around with abandon on badly set up tables and just playing kill points. While you can answer this with 'well it doesn't matter if they are having fun', the point being that the kind of culture which seems to have developed over the last 5 years has moved players away from the 'hobby' side of it - of taking time and effort to not only make your army, but to also set up a worthwhile game. I think in every sense, you get out what you put in.

While i am not a very good painter, and take ages to paint models, i would never pay for someone to paint my army.
At the moment most of my models at least have a chaos black undercoat, so worst case i can say that they are REALLY GOOD night lords.
Just about the worst thing i can imagine in this hobby is someone damaging another players models. I would have had words with your shovel wielding opponent

Steelmage99 wrote:

Laughing God wrote:

People can choose to paint there armys or not, and I can choose not to play them for being lazy, seems fair. Now the mods are already all over this thread lets keep it polite.

See? There you go again.

Calling people who don't enjoy/prioritize painting lazy, and in the same post as you complain about name calling, no less.

That IS being pompous....and no amount of "Now the mods are already all over this thread lets keep it polite" is going to change that.

After the amount of insult coming from nearly everyone... from pompous, to nazi, you'd have to think he's being specific instead of intentionally provocative.

I wouldn't play someone (who isn't starting...) that plays like the ones Pacific faces. No arms, movement trays for buggies, call me snobish (that seems to be the trend) but if I can't buy a miniature, either I convert it, or I don't field it. If it's for test purposes, I'll try to field something that could be used to proxy it (I wouldn't mind someone using 'Koptas as buggies, if warned beforehand). Playing against me with bases, saying they're models (even if someone said it was Frodo or Tau Stealth Suits) and having nothing on top means I most likely won't play that person.

Now, on the subject of time and hobby - unless they're very specific cases, like someone in this thread who works two jobs - people can't use time as an excuse, there are people from all sorts of social echelons with different time tables that manage none-the-less to paint, even if it's just a handful of miniatures.

If a person can't paint or doesn't like to, he shouldn't be ostracized for that, he should be helped, but even people with some adversities - which have also shown up in this thread - manage to paint their armies to a tabletop quality, so it really isn't that impossible as some people would have you believe. If said person doesn't like painting... It's a bit trickier, but could be worked around.

The OP, and some posters (me included) have a problem against a very specific set of conditions to which drawing comparisons isn't simple, nor fair. I prefer to face people with painted armies but I would play against unpainted armies for the right reasons, ie, starting out, not much time, doesn't like painting... Someone who does it to play the latest "flavour of the month" army, not so much.

agnosto wrote: According to you, I should not be allowed to play with my recent army, Ogre Kingdoms, because I only have 5 painted figures with the rest just bodies on a base. You see, I will paint them but also want to play with them before all of them are painted...why would I drop several hundred dollars buying an army except to play with it?

In conclusion, I am truly happy that none of you frequent the FLGS that I do because the first time you were a rude, arrogant piece of toe-jam to me, I would invite you outside for a discussion.

Well, my spleen's vented.

***End Rant***

At many stores, including my local Games Workshop, you would not be allowed to play with an unpainted army.

If you think people are being rude by asking you to play with a painted army, wow...

Maybe I'm old-school. Maybe there has been a massive change in the hobby in the 5 years that I've been away.

But there is a little thing that used to be in place called 'minimum standard'. The rule was, 3 colours, with at least a small effort at basing the model. If 1 or 2 models were unbased, that MIGHT have been let slide. (If the manager was in the store... then probably not)

So that's where I'm coming from. If you wanted to play the game, the models needed to be painted and assembled. They didnt have to be painted WELL... but they had to be painted. So now, it seems, refusing to play an unpainted model would be seen as arrogant, and rude? To me, bringing unpainted models is rude. (Note this is for games @ a store. Local club/friends house... totally different story.)

It really is interesting that the culture of the hobby seems to have changed that much in 5 years. Even the 12 year old kids would have a painted army.

With an attitude like that, I doubt I'd have fun playing anyway.