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Every time you play a game with another person, the two of you have to agree how to play the game.

Very many tabletop wargame players enjoy the game because it is played with painted figures.

It is foolish to expect them to agree to play with unpainted figures if they don't want to for aesthetic reasons.

Kilkrazy wrote:Every time you play a game with another person, the two of you have to agree how to play the game.

Very many tabletop wargame players enjoy the game because it is played with painted figures.

It is foolish to expect them to agree to play with unpainted figures if they don't want to for aesthetic reasons.

Yep. Agreed. It' just people who do that don't have to come on a forum and label those that don't abide by that "Terrible Hobbyists"

Some people like to paint a few models in a lot of detail and may take 2-3 hours to get 2-3 normal basic guardsmen done rather than an entire 1.5k force. If you don't play against people who have fully painted armies then fine but this attitude that you must paint is totally unwarranted. This does not dumb down the hobby at all. The aspect of the hobby I enjoy most is playing the battles themselves. Just because I don't have most of my force painted does not mean you shouldn't play with me. And even if you do refus to play at least don't then try to get me to paint over what I want to paint. This is a hobby and people should do what gives them the best time.

Avatar 720 wrote: Rules-wise, paint isn't stated as being mandatory; they have fulfilled all requirements in order to play the game and the only thing standing between them are people who wish to impose further restrictions based on personal preference.

This is really what the whole thing boils down too. It reminds me of the arguments about casual MMO players vs hardcore raiders. I'd rather play someone that has some tactical ingenuity and an unpainted army than a guy that has GD quality mini's and just throws his army at me like a sledgehammer.

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Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, I know what you mean. It doesn't bother me terribly, but I can see why it would.

I don't field my army unless everything is completely painted and done (which is why I don't game very often!).... But right now...I'm getting better and better at painting, so I feel compelled to repaint all of my army every couple of months...I think I'm wasting my time

My god this sounds horribly familiar.

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rivers64 wrote:Some people like to paint a few models in a lot of detail and may take 2-3 hours to get 2-3 normal basic guardsmen

Your time estimate is horribly horribly low if you are taking serious conversion work, gs modeling, and basing. Hell I don't even do the bases on my models and I'm running well over 100 man hours invested in ONE of my recent projects and they are only now getting early paint stages.

I don't mind unpainted models as long as they look decent. I don't even care if its grimdark provided it looks true to the 40k aesthetic. However, if some fool pulled out My Little Ponies, Muscle Men, and Gundams for his army I would politely find an excuse not to play.

Crantor wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Every time you play a game with another person, the two of you have to agree how to play the game.

Very many tabletop wargame players enjoy the game because it is played with painted figures.

It is foolish to expect them to agree to play with unpainted figures if they don't want to for aesthetic reasons.

Yep. Agreed. It' just people who do that don't have to come on a forum and label those that don't abide by that "Terrible Hobbyists"

I dont agree with the thread title.

I just find it interesting how different things are from 5 years ago. As I said before, the whole local gaming scene where I am pretty much depended on you showing up with a painted army.

I dont care if its not finished. Lots of people played with WIP stuff. But everything adhered to the 3 color rule.

Wow. I ca't believe I made it all the way to the end. Took me five separate sessions to read all of this!

Anyways, I went into this thread as an elitist paint nazi, and after seeing the opposing point of view, I think I can open up a little more to the unpainted minis players...

Thank you all for thi enkightening discussion.

Laughing God wrote:Man read my other posts before you berate me. You have me pegged all wrong. Your making progress, your clearly not a TFG whos throwing whatever he can on the table to win a game (obiously since you play ogres ), if your making progress ill play you finnished models or not...

I wasn't directing my rant at any person, just expressing my opinion.

wolfshadow wrote:At many stores, including my local Games Workshop, you would not be allowed to play with an unpainted army.

If you think people are being rude by asking you to play with a painted army, wow...

Maybe I'm old-school. Maybe there has been a massive change in the hobby in the 5 years that I've been away.

But there is a little thing that used to be in place called 'minimum standard'. The rule was, 3 colours, with at least a small effort at basing the model. If 1 or 2 models were unbased, that MIGHT have been let slide. (If the manager was in the store... then probably not)

So that's where I'm coming from. If you wanted to play the game, the models needed to be painted and assembled. They didnt have to be painted WELL... but they had to be painted. So now, it seems, refusing to play an unpainted model would be seen as arrogant, and rude? To me, bringing unpainted models is rude. (Note this is for games @ a store. Local club/friends house... totally different story.)

It really is interesting that the culture of the hobby seems to have changed that much in 5 years. Even the 12 year old kids would have a painted army.

That's something I'll never have to worry about because 1) The closest GW store is about 4 hours by car away from me and 2) FLGSs in my community care more about you supporting their families buy buying things in their store than whether you have some certain numbers of paint on your toy soldiers. I think if the owner of the store I frequent actually said anything like that I'd probably laugh at him and tell him myself and my money won't be back and I'll take my friends with me. Another factor is that I have entirely zero interest in tournaments so I never have to worry about fiddly little rules like how much paint is on my little plastic troopers.

Wanna talk old school? I was table top gaming in the mid-80s and picked up my first warhammer fantasy army in the 90s; I still have a full Chaos Dwarf army sitting on a shelf.

Like I said. I am most certainly glad that those with your attitude do not frequent the same FLGS that I do. I personally think it is childish to not play a GAME with someone just because they don't meet your standards. Hell, I wouldn't invite 3/4 of the mouth breathers that I play against to my house but I'll happily throw dice and move plastic around a table with them. Like Destrado said, if you're that much into appearances, you probably wouldn't be fun to play with anyway.

I've been laughing behind my computer screen at this thread. You guys are ridiculous If you really have a problem with someone's army, just don't play them.

I've been playing from the mid 90s.. And come at the hobby from waht I've seen of it. I have a local hobby shob (As opposed to gaming shop) thats run by a family friend that I gladly support by buying my paints and supplies.

And I've never said that I cared how well painted minis were. I've played against armies that you had to be hard pressed not to laugh off the table. But the standard that I've always gamed at was that 3 color standard. It seems to be the minimum for tourneys etc.

If you have a local store that will let you play with bare plastic minis then by all means.. play away. I'll be interested to know, once I get up to speed on the local scene once again, weather or not the standard has changed in my area. But I wont be doing that untill I can get my army painted.



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Samus_aran115 wrote:I've been laughing behind my computer screen at this thread. You guys are ridiculous If you really have a problem with someone's army, just don't play them.

I've never seen an army that I wouldnt play against, at least once. The local stores wouldnt let people play though.

wolfshadow wrote:I've been playing from the mid 90s.. And come at the hobby from waht I've seen of it. I have a local hobby shob (As opposed to gaming shop) thats run by a family friend that I gladly support by buying my paints and supplies.

And I've never said that I cared how well painted minis were. I've played against armies that you had to be hard pressed not to laugh off the table. But the standard that I've always gamed at was that 3 color standard. It seems to be the minimum for tourneys etc.

If you have a local store that will let you play with bare plastic minis then by all means.. play away. I'll be interested to know, once I get up to speed on the local scene once again, weather or not the standard has changed in my area. But I wont be doing that untill I can get my army painted.

There's really no "let" to it. If they were such sticklers, they'd be ostracizing potential, paying customers. I don't know what kind of business your family friend runs but if they can make a living by excluding potential paying customers, so be it, good for them. I'm sure that the shop down the road that could care less as long as they bring their money will laugh all the way to the bank.

My point has been that if I go out and plunk down a few hundred dollars on miniatures at a store, they should be more than happy to let me assemble them and try them out by playing with them and that has been my experience. I come in, make regular purchases and treat the tables and other customers with respect why should they care what kind of condition my personal property is in. We're not talking about a country club, it's a game store, full of nerdy types; grown-ups playing with plastic dolls. Being picky about whether your doll has paint on it seems a bit ironic when some patrons have poor personal hygiene. I would be more apt to say, "Your primer army is fine but I won't play you until you put on some clean clothes and find some deodorant."

Samus_aran115 wrote:I've been laughing behind my computer screen at this thread. You guys are ridiculous If you really have a problem with someone's army, just don't play them.

a

Isn't that what has pretty much been resolved?

I'm facepalming behind my computer screen.

[quote=agnosto
There's really no "let" to it. If they were such sticklers, they'd be ostracizing potential, paying customers. I don't know what kind of business your family friend runs but if they can make a living by excluding potential paying customers, so be it, good for them. I'm sure that the shop down the road that could care less as long as they bring their money will laugh all the way to the bank.

My point has been that if I go out and plunk down a few hundred dollars on miniatures at a store, they should be more than happy to let me assemble them and try them out by playing with them and that has been my experience. I come in, make regular purchases and treat the tables and other customers with respect why should they care what kind of condition my personal property is in. We're not talking about a country club, it's a game store, full of nerdy types; grown-ups playing with plastic dolls. Being picky about whether your doll has paint on it seems a bit ironic when some patrons have poor personal hygiene. I would be more apt to say, "Your primer army is fine but I won't play you until you put on some clean clothes and find some deodorant."

wolfshadow wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:

wolfshadow wrote: My GW where I started playing had a 3 color minimum for an army, and they wanted them based as well.

Thats complete bull. Not only would I never spend a single dime in a place with that attitude, but I would make every effort to divert other players to other retail or online sources. If they want things finished to a certain quality level then they can provide them, or deal with waht i bring. Now if this was a private clubs rules that would be fine...but for a business to make demands like that...far to snobby and unacceptable.


Personally, I prefer to have everything completely built and painted before I use it. Doesnt always work out that way, but I try. Now its been about 12 years since Ive played anything in a retail store. I do all my gaming at my house or a friends.

I could care less about how much or how well someone elses army is painted, but being partially assembled would be annoying. Not only would they need to be clear about what each unit was, but I might make them park a small note next to each one with the major details just so I dont have to keep asking or guessing. Also keeps things form changing during the game.

So where do you draw the line?

Some of us draw it at what I would call minimum standard.

You draw it at assembled.

We've had people who want tp lay the game with movement trays as models.

Everyone has their line where they say to themselves.... "This is just too much."

You want to draw people away from the only local place to play? Doesnt seem that sensible to me. There is, as far as I can tell, about 3 places in my city that I can regularly get a game in, if I'm interested. All 3 are 30+ minutes commute time via transit. If I want to get a game in, I pretty much have to play at the local GW. Why would I want to drive their customers away? So I have no place to play? I'd rather play at a place that has a painted army standard for gaming, than not play at all.

I started the hobby, and the standard was 'painted army'. So that's the standard that I feel is proper. Others obviously differ. Its interesting how vehement the opinions are.

The problem is, a 3 colour rule doesn't work for everything. Look at Necrons - they were designed to be pained very simply. Silver, and another colour to pick out details looks fine. Look at Tyranids - there's examples in the codex of two colour pain schemes, and they look great. A 3 colour rule just forces you to complicate your colour scheme.

Basecoated, metal and then highlight is 3 colors.

Eh, the highlight counts? Most of the time (unless you're going for a Tron looking army) it's the same colour, just lighter.

Why wouldn't it? It's a third color of paint, right?

Three colors is pretty damn basic:

Marines: Base color, Black or Red Bolter, Green or Red Eyes.

Nid: Base color, Red Eyes, White Teeth and Claws.

Necrons: Boltgun Metal, Black Gun, Green Eyes.

It's not really that hard. You can do a three color job on a 2000 point Necron army in the space of a few evenings.

For my Necrons: Boltgun basecoat, green eyes and cables, chainmail spines, purple ink over elites and command spines. Done. (For inital play)

Later detial work included some gold detail work on Immortals and Lords, and some more green and red detail work on scarabs, destroyers, and tomb spyders.


Playable standard for 1000 points: about 3-4 hours, including drying time.

Detail work added later: about 20-24 hours for the army.

Since it includes highlighting, it's reasonable. I was thinking they were also trying to stop people doing two colour armies (with highlighting), which do look fine if done right. Eyes though... I never do eyes. Might try on my Nids, but feth they're small eyes.

-Loki- wrote:Eh, the highlight counts? Most of the time (unless you're going for a Tron looking army) it's the same colour, just lighter.

K.



Moving along......

If I saw ANY game store refuse to let someone play on the basis that they didn't paint their mini's I would inform said game store employee's that I would no longer be spending money at their store. However if someone pulled out My Little Pony dolls to use for figures (pretty marines are allowed ponies) I'd laugh. Maybe even in a mean way.


The generalization of "it only takes XXXX time to paint XXXX army" is purely foolish. I promise you there are guys out there that spend extreme amounts of time on a Necron or Tyranid army. Hell, I happen to think that Tyranids are some of the more enjoyable mini's to paint. If you'd like to disagree I'll be happy to take some pictures of Necron mini's at my FLGS sitting next to their respective GD trophy. <shrug>

agnosto wrote:There's really no "let" to it. If they were such sticklers, they'd be ostracizing potential, paying customers. I don't know what kind of business your family friend runs but if they can make a living by excluding potential paying customers, so be it, good for them. I'm sure that the shop down the road that could care less as long as they bring their money will laugh all the way to the bank.

It may be a little more complex than that.

The more time and effort that someone has invested in their army, the more likely they are to continue to play in the long term. Much easier to buy stuff, get bored and sell it when you're not invested in those models. Also, you're ensuring that the games people play in the store are much more visually impressive for potential customers.

So, by enforcing a painting standard, the store owner might actually be encouraging long term business at the expense of some short-term business.

That was certainly the reasoning behind GW's always-painted policy. (and it should be pointed out, it certainly never hurt GW. Are GW's current decline and the current dropping of painting standards in some stores related?)

Obviously jus my humble opinion, and whilst I will play anyone no matter what sort of state their army is in, I prefer to play an army that has had some time invested in the look of it.

If I play a game with someone one week, and then 2 weeks later I play the same army and I see that they have started painting it then that's fine with me. But if they don't even bother at all, I kind of feel like they don't care the hobby, which is a shame as so many people do.

I do understand that it takes time and effort to paint, I don't get as much time to paint anymore and I seem to be purchasing new models quicker than I can paint them, but I will at least try and paint as and when I can as I do enjoy it and think it adds an extra dynamic to a game and helps with the story.

Just my thoughts anyway.....

wolfshadow wrote:

Crantor wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Every time you play a game with another person, the two of you have to agree how to play the game.

Very many tabletop wargame players enjoy the game because it is played with painted figures.

It is foolish to expect them to agree to play with unpainted figures if they don't want to for aesthetic reasons.

Yep. Agreed. It' just people who do that don't have to come on a forum and label those that don't abide by that "Terrible Hobbyists"

I dont agree with the thread title.

I just find it interesting how different things are from 5 years ago. As I said before, the whole local gaming scene where I am pretty much depended on you showing up with a painted army.

I dont care if its not finished. Lots of people played with WIP stuff. But everything adhered to the 3 color rule.

GW are partly responsible for this by allowing unpainted armies to be used in store and in competitions like 'Ard Boys.

Naturally they would rather people buy more and more models, rather than waste time painting figures. It does give the lie to their claim to be the wargames hobby.

I fully understand that people are enthused about the fluff and rules, and want to get playing as quickly as possible. Modern life is more about instant gratification than ever before.

The thing is, there are plenty of games which you can play out of the box, and don't require painting. Whereas the core point of playing tabletop miniature games is to create a colourful, attractive spectacle with your army and terrain. That's why there is such resistance to people playing with bare armies.

To be fair, though, the thread title is rather provocative.

This issue comes up regularly and always polarises opinion.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW are partly responsible for this by allowing unpainted armies to be used in store and in competitions like 'Ard Boys.

So, is the dropping of painting requirements by GW connected to their current decline?

I feel that it is. That reduced attachment that people have to their unpainted armies makes it much easier for them to quit the game.

Whereas the core point of playing tabletop miniature games is to create a colourful, attractive spectacle with your army and terrain.

I thought it was to have fun really... at least, that's why I joined the hobby; because I thought it would be fun.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Whereas the core point of playing tabletop miniature games is to create a colourful, attractive spectacle with your army and terrain.

I thought it was to have fun really... at least, that's why I joined the hobby; because I thought it would be fun.

Obviously, that's true of all games. However, the visual element of armies and terrain is what sets tabletop miniatures games apart from boardgames.

Eh I know I've posted several times, but I want to add something new (this time)
Roughly three months after my friend and I had started I had a full squad basecoated(as well as most my army)
and my friend had nothing painted(or primed for that matter)
and I kept harping on him so he spent one night painting one of his captains to a very impressive standard, it was so hard to get him to paint at all.
Up until recent months he still had over half his megaforce untouched, now he only has I think one LR left to build.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW are partly responsible for this by allowing unpainted armies to be used in store and in competitions like 'Ard Boys.

So, is the dropping of painting requirements by GW connected to their current decline?

I feel that it is. That reduced attachment that people have to their unpainted armies makes it much easier for them to quit the game.

Um, I'm pretty sure the economy is playing a bigger part than some lack of painting requirement. Having players come to your store to play means that there is a chance they will buy something as well, even if it is just glue or a white dwraf issue. As far as I know, my local GW store still enforces the painted and based rule. A rule I understand. GW is a business and marketing is huge. By having players play in-store with painted armies, they have a free advertising tool that customers can see. they see a nice product that they might feel compelled to purchase by seeing the end result. Imagine coming to the store for the first time and seeing a half assembled all silver based army. Not an image GW wants to portray. Don't kid yourself, GW wants to sell models and they'll use you to do it. If some GW stores are relaxing their rules then it might be a sign that the regulars who come in are not spending as much as they would like to see so by bringing in the unpainted mob they hope that they might sell more product (maybe even paint). More people in your store means more sales. By excluding one part of your customer base you are essentially keeping them out of your store.

By excluding a segment of the gaming community for whatever reason makes it much easier for them to quit the game because you've created a reason for them to reduce their attachment.

I'm sure that makes sense short term. But does it makes sense long term? Or is it encouraging lower levels of commitment from players?

-Loki- wrote:Since it includes highlighting, it's reasonable. I was thinking they were also trying to stop people doing two colour armies (with highlighting), which do look fine if done right. Eyes though... I never do eyes. Might try on my Nids, but feth they're small eyes.

have you tried using very small nibbed pens, you can get them in 0.5mm width


OT i don't mind how far along a persons army is, although i do prefer seeing painted armies, the one thing i don't like is the person who has the same army of unpainted space marines who jumps from codex to codex, just so he can lord over you