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When I play at my LGS, the general dividing line is that anyone under 18 has an army made up of unpainted/unassembled components, or say a Marine army that contains 3 or 4 different chapter colour schemes. Most of the older guys won't come to the table without a largely painted force.

Absolutely no-one prefers an army unassembled/unpainted army. And I still maintain that even the most hard-nosed, frenzied WAAC player still has room in their heart for the site of two well painted armies on the tabletop. Otherwise, I think they would just be at home playing online on the 360/ps2. My armies are not painted to anything like the standard you see on this or other forums, but I've made an effort with it, and I think that this transfers onto younger players who have yet to complete an army. This isn't an arrogant comment, but I'm sure of at least 1 or 2 younger players who have made greater efforts to get their own army finished after playing against me - we all respond to aesthetics at some level, I think even those who purport to just play the hardest army or just want the flavour of the month.

I think that there is a crucial difference that needs to be made.

There are three types of unpainted/not properly modeled armies.

1) The "I am trying something new to see if it works before I buy it"
There is nothing worse then buying a unit, building it, and them playing with it and realizing that you built the unit all wrong and it is now unplayable. I have no trouble playing against a "proxy" army if it is because the other player wants to try out a new book/unit to see if they like it better. This included partially unassembled armies while someone tests equipment.

Personal Story: I play Orks and started my army with two sets of black reach stuff and a battleforce. It was a long time until I found out how my orks play well. I still do not have the most "competitive" army, but it does well enough. After I painted a most of my stuff, I then had to go back and take a lot of the models apart once I got more bitz, like adding Power Klaws to my boys units.

2) The "I am just not finished...yet"
For some armies it takes a lot longer to paint them than others. I think that Necrons for example generally have simple paint schemes that look good and a low model count. Then you have an army like tyranids, who I think are harder to make them llok good and you have a huge model count. I do not mind playing someone who is working on their army, but wants to play now. Some armies can take years to finish, and sometimes you just want to play, to remind you why you are going through all of this torment.

Personal Story: Again, I played with some unpainted orks, simply because I did not want to wait until I was "done". I am still not done. I am currently updating my army, now that I have learned to paint better.

3) The "I will never put effort into these"
This is the guy who buys the models, plays the game, but will never put the effort into making his army look good. Often these will be the flavor of the month, but not always. I am not part of this group, so I have much less to say about it.


To sum it up:

I think that each player has a different personality on the tabletop, and it can sometimes show in their army. Someone who just plays for the playing, will put a lot of time and effort into list building, researching tactics, and play testing and they probably get annoyed by someone with a "fluffy" army who does not put up a good fight. The same as someone who likes the story and the look more than competitive play gets fed up with someone taking the flavor of the month.

In the end, you need to have a good match up of personalities on the tabletop to have a good game. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes in terms of an opponent. If you do not like someone, then just do not play them. Don't assume that just because their army has less paint on it, that it will not be a good game. You have no idea why that army is unpainted. Give everyone at least one chance, you might have a great game. You do not however need to give them a second chance.

Ailaros wrote:yes, you're being pompous. Not everybody can paint, and, more crucually, not everybody has the time. Once you start balancing job, wife, and kids, it's not like there's a whole lot of time left to model (or so I hear).

I managed to build and paint a marine company in 8 months while balancing a full time job (with a 90 minute commute), fiance and two little girls.

As long as you keep putting in an hour here and an hour there it adds up.

Ailaros wrote:yes, you're being pompous. Not everybody can paint, and, more crucually, not everybody has the time. Once you start balancing job, wife, and kids, it's not like there's a whole lot of time left to model (or so I hear).

With this I agree, not the pompous part though.

Scott-S6 wrote:
I managed to build and paint a marine company in 8 months while balancing a full time job (with a 90 minute commute), fiance and two little girls.

As long as you keep putting in an hour here and an hour there it adds up.

Also true, but it's finding that hour ...

Ailaros wrote:That said, I agree with part of your hypothesis. I definitely notice that people seem to care MUCH less about models that they bought shoddily painted from someone else, and are MUCH more likely to pay special care and attention to models that they bought, built, and painted themselves.

Hmm I kind of agree. Everything I buy off ebay I strip before playing with them as I would rather have a bare/undercoated miniature rather than someone elses paint job, but that's why I haven't used a lot of the stuff i've bought or i've resold it, as i've not had the time.

Laughing God wrote:

See your just one of those people who just like the gaming side of things.

I will only choose to play people like me who at least put SOME effort into there armies :.

Thanks for taking a generalization about the people I have played with and then assuming that's MY perspective. I was noting that in the circles I have played, the game is generally considered a game, and people don't tear you a new one for not having your army painted. they play it competitively, like a game
I never said "I view this as a game" I said PEOPLE do.

I personally don't like to field plastic, but I sure as hell don't turn down a game with my buddies if I haven't finished my army. I don't know where you live, but if you can find a bunch of snobs with a lot of time on their hands and a colour wheel then great job guys! I'm a bit too perfectionist to bash out something at a "good enough to put on the table" quality so it takes me more time than most. You might wanna consider context before you make remarks that make you sound like a jerk

Pilau Rice wrote:Also true, but it's finding that hour ...

When my other half was watching rubbish TV would usually do it for me. And it gave me an excuse to not be paying attention to Coronation St, Eastenders, X-Factor, etc...

i played with a lot of unpainted models. If i had waited till i had 1500pts of CSM painted up and based and flocked i wouldnt have played a game for years.
The army i play with CSM i paint at a very slow rate, but i have a BA (1.5K) army ive never played that ive painted(and is the army im most proud of appearance wise atm), and the makings of a necron army that is painted up.
Its probably because i bought and painted the BA army bit by bit, but my CSM army must be about 5K points worth, which is a bit intimidating to paint. Its a lot easier to say "ill paint my BA tactical squad then go buy a baal predator" than "i need to paint about 100 models. then i can get to my HQs/heavy support and oh look i just bought some terminators too."

Scott-S6 wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Also true, but it's finding that hour ...

When my other half was watching rubbish TV would usually do it for me. And it gave me an excuse to not be paying attention to Coronation St, Eastenders, X-Factor, etc...

What about those of us who are still required to study in 90% of our time off and like to sleep the other 10%?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Also true, but it's finding that hour ...

When my other half was watching rubbish TV would usually do it for me. And it gave me an excuse to not be paying attention to Coronation St, Eastenders, X-Factor, etc...

My misses also watches the same dire television however, she has Sky+ so tends to record these. This was the time that I would do all my painting but alas. Accursed Sky+!

Mattieau wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Also true, but it's finding that hour ...

When my other half was watching rubbish TV would usually do it for me. And it gave me an excuse to not be paying attention to Coronation St, Eastenders, X-Factor, etc...

What about those of us who are still required to study in 90% of our time off and like to sleep the other 10%?

So you don't watch TV or play video games? At all? Because if you do, some of that time could be getting used to progress your army.

For the painting i agree whole heartedly with the OP, i'm not gonna name names but one of the guys who does Bat Reps on this site is the worst offender i have ever seen. in one report He was running a BA las plas Razor spam list and it consisted of 3 crummy leman russes and some imperial fist rhinos and a mish mash of troops. I dont actually think there was a single RB model let alone a Las plas! I think at least primed and if you can't paint due to imfirmity just spray 'em the colour you want then dry brush a highlight and do the bases. For space marines this technique looks perfectly good.

I also don't buy the 'time' argument. When it comes to a hobby of this nature, if you've bought it that means you should certainly make good on your investment by spending what little time you can spare on it. For example i buy a videogame BECAUSE i FORESEE some time to spend on it i don't buy it and expect time to appear.The only kind of person i would excuse is someone with young children, because building that 'model' uses up your spare time. What people should say is they weren't in the 'Mood' to paint, it's perfectly acceptable it's not laziness everyone gets creative block. Any Other excuse just displays VERY poor time management.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Mattieau wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Also true, but it's finding that hour ...

When my other half was watching rubbish TV would usually do it for me. And it gave me an excuse to not be paying attention to Coronation St, Eastenders, X-Factor, etc...

What about those of us who are still required to study in 90% of our time off and like to sleep the other 10%?

So you don't watch TV or play video games? At all? Because if you do, some of that time could be getting used to progress your army.

I haven't played a video game in months and the only tv I watch is a little bit of the news before I leave for school

Just to make a comment to your post Perkustin.
when I first started the game I had more time then I do now. My free time is at night due to my work schedule being at night and my days off end up being nights off.
I cant exactly turn lights on that would wake up my other family members just so I can paint. Granted there are some day off that I do see the light of day, but when that happens I have to help around the house and do various other tasks and run other errands.
As I stated before though, I have an extra day off this week due to getting a (un)lucky change to my schedule for the holidays and I have reserved that day strictly for my CSM to have some new paint and such.

Laughing God wrote:

See your just one of those people who just like the gaming side of things. For me and people like me its not just a game, its a hobby. I set aside time to model and paint my pieces. With your logic why not just field green army men toys and call it good right? Its just a game.

I also like the sportsmanship and pro-social side of things, the side that TFG ignores...

Look into it.

Playing with painted armies used to be practically sacred in wargaming. It still is in the historical branch.

GW have made unpainted armies more acceptable because it fits their business model.

Mattieau wrote:I haven't played a video game in months and the only tv I watch is a little bit of the news before I leave for school

Then you may be one of the 1% of people that genuinely doesn't have time to paint.

Most people who "don't have time to paint" really mean "I do have time to paint but playing xbox, watching battlestar galactica, etc is more important / easier".


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Kilkrazy wrote:Playing with painted armies used to be practically sacred in wargaming. It still is in the historical branch.

GW have made unpainted armies more acceptable because it fits their business model.

Very true. When I started back in 1st edition, unpainted models were simply not used. The one exception was if you'd bought and assembled it that day.

Mattieau wrote:I play as Eldar. Originally was painting them as Saim- Hann, which is essentially Ulthwe but red instead of black, but now i'm planning on eventually painting them as a custom craftworld with blue instead of black

Also, sure, maybe I’d be like you and drinking makes me a better painter, but that would eventually get very expensive, and I’m under 18

Lol then no I don’t advise drinking if your state side. But I looked at some of your stuff and there is nothing wrong with that! You painted it, it’s to TTQ, and you put the time and effort into it.

Mattieau wrote:
Just looked at your album. I am in awe of your supposedly 'shakey' work. I wish I could paint like that.

Thank you, practice practice

-Loki- wrote:I think the problem people have is they don't like painting a model unless it's to the standard in the codices. People have a problem with fielding an army they painted when it's not absolutely jaw droppingly beautiful, so they just don't paint them at all.

These people need to realize that a fully painted army, even to an average or below average standard, as long as it is consistent, looks fine on the tabletop, and really helps with the enjoyment of the game.

QFT

Mukkin'About wrote:
Thanks for taking a generalization about the people I have played with and then assuming that's MY perspective. I was noting that in the circles I have played, the game is generally considered a game, and people don't tear you a new one for not having your army painted. They play it competitively, like a game
I never said "I view this as a game" I said PEOPLE do.

I personally don't like to field plastic, but I sure as hell don't turn down a game with my buddies if I haven't finished my army. I don't know where you live, but if you can find a bunch of snobs with a lot of time on their hands and a color wheel then great job guys! I'm a bit too perfectionist to bash out something at a "good enough to put on the table" quality so it takes me more time than most. You might wanna consider context before you make remarks that make you sound like a jerk

I apologize for the blanket statement. I understand not everyone has time to paint to a good quality or any quality. It’s just going to my hobby store every weekend and seeing a guy with a terrible looking army making no progress after months of owning the army. An army he just started because the codex is supposedly super OP.

I will politely avoid playing armies from these people just as I avoid people who are rule Nazi’s or just people who don’t make the game/hobby fun. If this makes me a pompous elitist duechbag then so be it, but ill have fun doing it .

Really it’s not impossible no matter how limited your time to just sit down once and a while and primer then slap some color on your models. I’ll play armies that aren’t fully painted as I have several work in progress armies, but if next time I see that player and they aren’t making any effort to at least try to work on it then I’ll just avoid playing them. Plain and simple, im a practical down to earth guy with a much larger life outside this hobby, but I just get more out of my experience by playing with hobbyists who try.

Example- A friend I frequently play is building an 1850 space wolf army, it’s all put together and slowly being painted week after week. He is only 19 and going about the hobby "the right way" in my mind. Then there is a senior player who’s prolly been going at it since rouge trader who bought his space wolf army used right after the codex dropped. The models are very old, chipped some are painted some aren’t, the conversions are terrible. He’s had this army the exact same for what almost a year now?! I won’t play this guy unless he’s using a different army, though I did barely beat him in tournament last week though that’s neither here nor there.

Point: both armies are unpainted but one is getting there and the other is just unsightly and a testament to the owners laziness.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW good debate guys, lets avoid offending or lashing out at anyone. I see the majority of us agree so lets keep it friendly please

Kilkrazy wrote:Playing with painted armies used to be practically sacred in wargaming. It still is in the historical branch.

GW have made unpainted armies more acceptable because it fits their business model.

Scott-S6 wrote:
Very true. When I started back in 1st edition, unpainted models were simply not used. The one exception was if you'd bought and assembled it that day.

Ahh those were the days, I wouldn't be able to play at my FLGS now however though

The bare minimum at my FLGS was that your miniatures had to have the bases painted and be undercoated, I do tend to stick to this when playing there though even now.

n0t_u wrote:Click their name and check if they have images in the gallery then.

What is the problem with me asking it?

Thanks for the uploaded pics, guys. Sorry for the off-topic.

Its nice to play other painted armies, my army is 90% painted (not bad for orks) and I love it when I get to play other painted armies it makes the game look so much better.

That being said I did choose a color scheme that was going to be easy to do and used minimal colors that shaded well with just a few washes and I made sure I based them all the same and jobs a good un

The owner of our store,the wise and practical Dave has a house rule, if you wanna play its gotta be primed. I'm ok with this, as well was Ardboyz

Me and my brother started warhammer at the same time, I have painted his army and mine, love the fluff, but I lose almost all the time. My brother is usually uninterested in painting, but always wins at the gaming aspect. Different people, different interests.

Laughing God wrote:Now when I first started playing 40k I bought an army off ebay, threw it on the table and played my heart out. The models looked terrible, no effort put into modeling or painting, some of them just old ugly eldar models from 2nd ed. Long story short the army wasnt "mine" it was someone elses shoddy work.

I would be very dissapointed but I was new. Now I buy my models one at a time from a dealer, put them together with care and creativity, then diligently and lovingly paint every model. I wont even field the model till its painted to table top quality. My armies are "MINE" now. I bought them, put them together and painted them. I was a terrible painter but really it took practice and patience to get good enough were I was proud to field my work.

Now to the point of the thread. I get disgusted now when I go to my flgs and see veteran players walking into the shop with with a flavor of the month army they bought off ebay just to pwn people into the dust on the battlefield. BUT the models look terrible, there was no effort put into it, what are they getting out of all of it? Or they still have the same y looking army they have had the last 2 years and have done nothing to fix it. Im to the point were I only play players who have put the effort to at least make there models tabel top quality as I have, now I dont mind a primered model here or there awaiting work because thats a sign of progress.

Does anyone agree with me? Am I just being pompus? Or are people just lazy hobbyists with no real respect for the game? idk In my mind this game is just more than just winning on the table top, the hobby as a whole is my needs to be considered.

I agree, to a point.

It's nice to play against well-painted armies. Hell, even armies that are painted to a barely-tabletop standard are preferable to unpainted minis.

However, you frequently get players who:
1. Aren't good at painting. It may come as a shock, but not everyone is capable of painting well. They might be able to pick it up with a bit of practice, but some people have a limited amount of spare time - which a lot of people would prefer to spend with friends or family rather than painting mandollies.
2. Don't enjoy painting. Another shock: not everyone enjoys the same aspects of the hobby as you do. I enjoy RTS games on my computer but simply can't get into FPS games, and I know a number of people who are the opposite. Are we somehow lesser gamers just because we don't enjoy the full spectrum?
3. Want to try new things out. So, they buy something straight from eBay so they can use it on the table immediately. How is this any different to you when you started off? Being an experienced player doesn't mean that you should be able to churn out painted minis at the speed of light, even veterans like to experiment with new things every now and then.
4. Are lazy and/or can't concentrate on a single project for long enough. I am one of these players; while my painting skill isn't too bad, I just can't paint without inspiration and motivation. I could get inspiration from looking at minis online, but as soon as I sit down at my painting desk I just draw a blank. My motivation dwindles for every second I am there, and by the time I pick up my paintbrush I'd rather be doing something else. That does not make me a lesser gamer, just an unmotivated one. Sometimes I'm able to sit and paint for hours, but most times I just know that I've got other things that I should be doing.

To be honest, your entire post comes across as saying "the world would be a better place if it was made up of me!" That might not be your intent, but that's certainly how it feels. The fact is, people are different and getting annoyed at them for being different (which is, at its heart, exactly what you're doing) is just plain wrong.

I bought an army from Ebay. Only because I needed vechiles and I have slowly started to paint them up, and the fact that I work on them everyday, and I have background lore on them and everything. Of course I did plan it out 6 months prior and how to do it. And I have painted the gun on my LaserBack and my marine squads are painted its just the tanks. But Yeah I don't see the problem. I basically break everything apart and put it back together.

Lol im a hobby nazi?

@The OP

Sorry to be so brazen about this, but you are a complete prat if that is your attitude.

NOTHING pisses me off more when I walk into my local GW to play a game, when some of the people go "oh have you not painted that unit yet?"

Now i'm sorry that I work 12 hours a day, and that the ONLY opportunity I get to play warhammer is when I manage to get away from work early once a week. There are so many students in my shop, and they have all the time in the world to paint ot their hearts content. I sometimes struggle to find time to assemble, let alone paint.

Oh, and please don't label all us ebayers with the same brush - the only army i bought from Ebay was my necron army - if you want to call me a bandwagoner for that as well, well then youre a double idiot for that as well.

If you wan't to come and paint all my models for me be my guest - I love painting (despite the fact that im not very good at it), and getting into the shop to play with my friends is more important to me than worrying about fielding a 100% painted list.

If anyone is the terrible hobbyist, its you.

Calm down dude.

There's a lot of people that don't like looking at a gray plastic mess across the table from them, it's just the way it is. You've got every right to not paint your army, someone like the OP or myself has every right to not play against you.

Then, like every other thread like this, I suppose its time to say that if you really wanted to paint your army you'd find time.

Modquisition on. Lets all take a breath and remember Dakka Rule #1: be polite.

Its so easy to say that, but its so innacurate its untrue.

Monday to friday, i'm out of the house at 7AM every day, and don't get home till well after 9PM. I occasioanlly get away from work early on a Thursday to go to GW to play some 40k.

Saturday and Sunday nights I work from 6PM to 12 PM in a second job. During the day I like to try to do things like get some groceries, or go to the gym, visit my girlfiend, that sort of stuff. Are you saying that I should drop these things to paint?

If you like painting as much as you say you do, you could paint on a Thursday night.

Since you asked, you have 86 hours in a week that you aren't working. Factoring in 8 hours of sleep a night (I sleep less than that) it leaves you 42. So if you could squeeze in 2 hours a week of painting you'd have 40 hours to do all those other things that you like to do. I don't even like painting all that much, and I'm a relatively busy guy, but I do it. And when I field something that isn't painted (which is rare) I don't make a lot of excuses about it.