Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Crantor wrote:To be fair though I think more players leave the game due to prices, rule changes or lack of gaming opportunities or even life changes..

For me, 40k was always about hanging out with friends.

Since I moved, I find that I enjoy the hobby a lot less when playing with strangers.

I totally agree with you. I think its a imperative neccesity to embrace both aspects of the game equally. Frankly, ive never been able to comprehend the mentality of a player who doesnt commit ANY level of effort into their models. Why are you playing the game? Becuase its fun? Well there are plenty of fun games that dont require you to paint...go play hero clix!!! Its incredibly disparaging to me as a hobbyist when someone fields an army that isnt painted and no effort has gone into it. Personally it detracts for the experience as a whole. I dont enjoy playing the game simply to play it; if I did I wouldnt waist my time and money with 40k, I would just play a board game. What captivates my interests is the presentation of the game. I really submerge myself and my imagination when I see nicely painted armies in opposition on the battle field with great scenery. It propels my excitement and keeps me enjoying this hobby. Even if your a terrible painter....painting your models can only help you in the long run. I dont think I have to run down the positives of practicing your painting skills, but there are no negatives to practicing. Besides, with the price of these units, it just makes no sense to me why players dont take their time to paint the characters and find satisfaction in painting.

PAINT YOUR ARMIES -- ITS PART OF THE GAME!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mukkin'About wrote:Dude, it's a game. Some people see it only as a game and therefore they play the game to win the game. Don't be a nazi about it, not everyone has the time/skill/determination to paint and convert everything like you do.

If you're really that ticked, be elitist and only play with people like you. Don't be surprised if you don't get a lot of games in with that attitude

congradulations, you have won the "most incoherent and ignorant babel post ive seen today" award.

Monster Rain wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Well for startters your math is wrong. 8 hours sleep a day * 7 days = 56 hours, so thats a total of 30 hours left.

Meh, I attempted that a bit too early in the morning.

The point stands. If you wanted to paint, you'd find time.

UsdiThunder wrote:Look refusing to play people because they are painted is what is wrong with 40k. The sense of eliteism divides the community that enjoy 40k.

There should be no reason to turn anyone from 40k unless they are TFG, or an all out cheater. Unlike the elitists I will play anyone wiling to play, I will teach them if they don't know how to play, if they are into painting I will help them, but will not turn anyone away without a real good reason.

The more poeple into our hobby the stronger it becomes. The elitists are a big reason why 40k is not a bigger hobby. People are willing to spend $37.25 to buy a 10 pack of marines, but not put up with someone looking down thier noses at them because they'd rather get to playing, than paint their models.

How is it elitism to prefer one thing over another. Part of my enjoyment of the hobby is pitting one painted army against another on a scenic table, creating an enjoyable visual experience. I'm not saying people shouldn't join the hobby, I just wish that painting was a bigger priority for some people.

That said, if someone is showing progress in their painting I don't have a problem with it. If they continually field the same heap of gray plastic for months going into years then it becomes more of an issue for me. Also, if someone is just getting into the hobby they obviously get more slack about this than a veteran.

QFT

congradulations, you have won the "most incoherent and ignorant babel post ive seen today" award.

Congratulations, you just won the first warning of the day.

I fall on the "I love painting side of things." I've had my army since May and I've yet to play a game because I am still trying to get them put together and painted. I do have a little bit of an issue, however, because it seems that most people fall on the gaming side of things. I was hoping to find a group of people to paint with, and a lot of people tend to paint alone, but game in groups. I also have a job, a toddler, and a house to take care of. I tend to paint on Saturday nights in Starbucks rather than go to the hobby store because the hobby stores I know of are around an hour away.

loranafaeriequeen wrote:I fall on the "I love painting side of things." I've had my army since May and I've yet to play a game because I am still trying to get them put together and painted. I do have a little bit of an issue, however, because it seems that most people fall on the gaming side of things. I was hoping to find a group of people to paint with, and a lot of people tend to paint alone, but game in groups. I also have a job, a toddler, and a house to take care of. I tend to paint on Saturday nights in Starbucks rather than go to the hobby store because the hobby stores I know of are around an hour away.

Do any of your friends play?

What my gaming club used to do before big tournaments was have a "paint day" (usually a saturday afternoon) to make sure everyones army had at least primer and 3 basic colors on it which was what was required at tournaments (which I still think should be required...). We would all sit down and have a few drinks put some music on or a movie and paint the evening away and BSing, all the while exchanging tips and paint and even helping paint each others models when ours were done. You can organize something like this in your area maybe?

If not then get the fam involved lol

Laughing God wrote:

What my gaming club used to do before big tournaments was have a "paint day" (usually a saturday afternoon) to make sure everyones army had at least primer and 3 basic colors on it which was what was required at tournaments (which I still think should be required...). We would all sit down and have a few drinks put some music on or a movie and paint the evening away and BSing, all the while exchanging tips and paint and even helping paint each others models when ours were done. You can organize something like this in your area maybe?

If not then get the fam involved lol

That is awesome. Ive been trying to find players and coordinate something like this for years....without any success :(

I cannot paint, nor do I enjoy painting, ergo very few of my models are painted (and since I am also a perfectionist, none are painted to a standard i'd like to be at).

I do, however, enjoy modelling and gaming. I can spend a long time looking at the bitz for a model to figure out a nice pose or which bitz would look good swapped around. I also like the interactions during a game, and the tactical aspect of it, as well as teaching new people and learning from my mistakes.

However, I am easily discouraged when mistakes cannot easily be rectified. For example, I like writing in my spare time, but if it comes to a point where I need to re-wrtie a whole chapter, I don't like doing it, I will make excuses for keeping the current chapter as it is, and i'm not even able to convince myself with them. This is the same with painting.

I don't like the thought of stripping my models and starting over, nor do I like re-applying layers. Since I have random violent twitches, I often coat a painted part in the colour on my brush at the time, and if I can see it, even if it's just a speck, I will try to re-apply the layer, which either ruins the layering on that part, or I coat another painted bit in the process.

I also cannot comprehend techniques. Drybrushing, highlighting, weathering... they're all beyond me. I daren't even attempt to thin my paints or mix new ones because I don't want to ruin them, and I don't know the exact measurements in each ratio (which bugs me, i'm not good with random, I need exact).

I also do not find the joy in painting. I look at a finished model and instead of thinking "That's great, job done." i'm left thinking "Hmmm, it'll do..." because i'm terrified of trying to rectify mistakes and ruining the model due to past experience of doing that.

Painting also feels too much like a chore. I find myself looking at the clock or my watch constantly, or I want to do something else like make an army list or go on my computer or watch TV.

I also cannot do 'bare minimum' jobs based on what the internet's idea of the easiest scheme is. I want to paint my own scheme with my own backstory. The backstory is the easy bit for me, really, it is; the painting is the hard part. I also don't want to make up a backstory for a suggested 'easy colour scheme'. I want it to be my own, all mine.

Coating your models in black, white and silver with a green base dunked in sand might be easy, but I won't like it. I won't feel i've accomplsihed anything apart from cutting corners to please other people. These models are mine, I built them, I made their backstory, I want to play them my way and I want them to be painted my way, but I can't fulfill that last bit.

Sure, I might have a painted army a few years from now, but until then you'll have to put up with the army of undercoats, because I did not pay for an army that I will be forced to paint because some else wants it painted. If you want it painted so badly, you do it, here's the scheme, go crazy, but remember that this is for your benefit, not mine; so don't expect any payment.

So the fact that your models won't be perfect keeps you from painting them at all?

Sounds like a cop-out, if I'm honest. Just say you don't want to paint, don't try to rationalize it.

Monster Rain wrote:So the fact that your models won't be perfect keeps you from painting them at all?

Sounds like a cop-out, if I'm honest. Just say you don't want to paint, don't try to rationalize it.

It's a factor, I never stated it was the sole reason.

Monster Rain wrote:So the fact that your models won't be perfect keeps you from painting them at all?

Sounds like a cop-out, if I'm honest. Just say you don't want to paint, don't try to rationalize it.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Of course we should be allowed to justify why we can't paint as much as we'd like. The players pro-100% painted have justified their argument, why can't we?

liam0404 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:So the fact that your models won't be perfect keeps you from painting them at all?

Sounds like a cop-out, if I'm honest. Just say you don't want to paint, don't try to rationalize it.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Of course we should be allowed to justify why we can't paint as much as we'd like. The players pro-100% painted have justified their argument, why can't we?

There's a difference between justification and rationalization, I think.

Monster Rain wrote:

liam0404 wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:So the fact that your models won't be perfect keeps you from painting them at all?

Sounds like a cop-out, if I'm honest. Just say you don't want to paint, don't try to rationalize it.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Of course we should be allowed to justify why we can't paint as much as we'd like. The players pro-100% painted have justified their argument, why can't we?

There's a difference between justification and rationalization, I think.

There is, but justification would be explaining the reasoning behind something that is rational. You cannot rationalise something that is already rational.

So what's rational about the painted camp? Refusal to play certain people who don't have painted models? That's rational behaviour?

Don't get me wrong, there are some players who should be avoided for reasons already listed in this thread, but not having a painted army is definitely a form of elitism.

My stance is that if a player has gone to the trouble of assembly or conversions, they are ready to play. Its tantamount to schoolyard bullying. Have you considered that some players/kids can't afford to buy the materials they need? And rather than paint witg stuff they are unhappy with, they'd prefer to wait?

Is that wrong? Not one damn bit.

Hmmm this is very two sided Im seeing.

The painters agree with me because they want to see painted armies since they worked so hard on there army. So they give nonpainters the cold shoulder and casually avoid playing them.

The nonpainters disagree with me (strongly lol) because they cant paint, dont have time, or dont enjoy it. So they tell painters "well if you dont like them then dont play me" or "if it bugs you so much then why dont you paint them".

There must be a middle ground thou.

If you dont know how to paint or are terrible as is: Seek help, have someone with experience teach you, and practice practice practice.

If you dont have time: Slow and steady, just do a little bit at a time when you can.

If you dont like painting at all: If your just being lazy (really think about it)... stop it. Make it fun! Paint with ur friends! pop in a movie or music and paint with that in ur background. Once again take your time and paint when you have the freetime. If you abosolutely can not stand it... idk man pay someone else to paint them.

And Painters-

Realize that not everyone is like you. Some people dont find joy in painting, some just suck at it, some dont have the time. Understand this and get to know the people you play with. Its a social game! Maybe offer some painting tips or set up paint nites. Just dont condem them for the apperance of there army when you dont know the story. Maybe just play the damn game and move on, If you crush them you can claim it was because ur army had paint luck(?) and if you lose you can die beautifully. lol

liam0404 wrote:So what's rational about the painted camp? Refusal to play certain people who don't have painted models? That's rational behaviour?

Obviously this is to be judged on a case by case basis.

Someone who's too broke to buy paint(but inexplicably has money for models) would be one matter, someone who just doesn't want to paint their army is obviously another.

Yes, preferring to play against painted armies is perfectly rational. I don't think anyone says that they outright refuse to play unpainted armies, I know that I for sure haven't.

idk man pay someone else to paint them.

Trouble here is that i've already shelled out for the models, do I really have to pay through the nose just to please someone else?

There's also the issue of trust, do I trust these models to get safely through the mail? Do I trust the guy on the other end?

And then there's also the issue of time. When will I have them back? I've missed out on X amount of gaming nights because someone else wants to play painted models only, was it worth it?

There's a difference between justification and rationalization, I think.

Only in your mind.

Frazzled wrote:

There's a difference between justification and rationalization, I think.

Only in your mind.

That's the only place that matters!

Avatar 720 wrote:

idk man pay someone else to paint them.

Trouble here is that i've already shelled out for the models, do I really have to pay through the nose just to please someone else?

There's also the issue of trust, do I trust these models to get safely through the mail? Do I trust the guy on the other end?

And then there's also the issue of time. When will I have them back? I've missed out on X amount of gaming nights because someone else wants to play painted models only, was it worth it?

Look for a painter you like the style of that will do a deal for a whole army commission. Also see his history for commissions and maybe contact his past clients for feedback on him. Failing that buy cheap models online and practice. Anyone given enough time and practice can get to basic tabletop standards. Anyone!

liam0404 wrote:@The OP

Sorry to be so brazen about this, but you are a complete prat if that is your attitude.

NOTHING pisses me off more when I walk into my local GW to play a game, when some of the people go "oh have you not painted that unit yet?"

Now i'm sorry that I work 12 hours a day, and that the ONLY opportunity I get to play warhammer is when I manage to get away from work early once a week. There are so many students in my shop, and they have all the time in the world to paint ot their hearts content. I sometimes struggle to find time to assemble, let alone paint.

Oh, and please don't label all us ebayers with the same brush - the only army i bought from Ebay was my necron army - if you want to call me a bandwagoner for that as well, well then youre a double idiot for that as well.

If anyone is the terrible hobbyist, its you.

Are you the guy from the Simpsons who works in the Dungeon and Android Baseball card shop?

Monster Rain wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

There's a difference between justification and rationalization, I think.

Only in your mind.

That's the only place that matters!

Don't forget, in order to converse with his equal and Irishman is forced to talk to God!*

*Added for no reason other than I like the phrase.

Lexx wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

idk man pay someone else to paint them.

Trouble here is that i've already shelled out for the models, do I really have to pay through the nose just to please someone else?

There's also the issue of trust, do I trust these models to get safely through the mail? Do I trust the guy on the other end?

And then there's also the issue of time. When will I have them back? I've missed out on X amount of gaming nights because someone else wants to play painted models only, was it worth it?

Look for a painter you like the style of that will do a deal for a whole army commission. Also see his history for commissions and maybe contact his past clients for feedback on him. Failing that buy cheap models online and practice. Anyone given enough time and practice can get to basic tabletop standards. Anyone!

Anyone given the right inclination can.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Lexx wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

idk man pay someone else to paint them.

Trouble here is that i've already shelled out for the models, do I really have to pay through the nose just to please someone else?

There's also the issue of trust, do I trust these models to get safely through the mail? Do I trust the guy on the other end?

And then there's also the issue of time. When will I have them back? I've missed out on X amount of gaming nights because someone else wants to play painted models only, was it worth it?

Look for a painter you like the style of that will do a deal for a whole army commission. Also see his history for commissions and maybe contact his past clients for feedback on him. Failing that buy cheap models online and practice. Anyone given enough time and practice can get to basic tabletop standards. Anyone!

Anyone given the right inclination can.

Just saying there are ways to do it if you want to do it yourself or with other peoples help that are possible and wont break the bank. The store I first got into the hobby at had 3 colours and bases done as a minimum to play unless you had just bought those models that week. The painting and aesthetics of an army I guess were ingrained into me to be just as important as the battles. It just seems a waste to not finish them.

Laughing God wrote:Now to the point of the thread. I get disgusted now when I go to my flgs and see veteran players walking into the shop with with a flavor of the month army they bought off ebay just to pwn people into the dust on the battlefield. BUT the models look terrible, there was no effort put into it, what are they getting out of all of it? Or they still have the same y looking army they have had the last 2 years and have done nothing to fix it. Im to the point were I only play players who have put the effort to at least make there models tabel top quality as I have, now I dont mind a primered model here or there awaiting work because thats a sign of progress.

Does anyone agree with me? Am I just being pompus? Or are people just lazy hobbyists with no real respect for the game? idk In my mind this game is just more than just winning on the table top, the hobby as a whole is my needs to be considered.

I certainly understand the sentiment. Personally I have a great appreciation for the hobby aspects of the game especially conversions. Coming from a long background of static model building this is not surprising.

In this hobby there is the chance to develop skill at playing, and there is also opportunity to develop skill at modeling and painting. While I have a great deal of skill in assembly and conversion my painting is adequate at best though I strive to improve. My playing is solid middle ground and I can hold my own.

One thing I have observed in my local gaming scene is there are certain traits that seem to come out in the less hobby oriented folks. Since their main goal is winning the game they tend to be rather cut throat and some of the most heated in-game arguments I've witnessed have come from those that pay others to build and paint their armies. On the other side of the coin one of the most laid-back players I know is also the best painter.

Now this is not to say that all hobbyists are fun to play against, and all purchasers of pre-painted armies are jerks. In my experience it's just tended towards that equation. Your mileage may vary.

Pacific wrote:

liam0404 wrote:@The OP

Sorry to be so brazen about this, but you are a complete prat if that is your attitude.

NOTHING pisses me off more when I walk into my local GW to play a game, when some of the people go "oh have you not painted that unit yet?"

Now i'm sorry that I work 12 hours a day, and that the ONLY opportunity I get to play warhammer is when I manage to get away from work early once a week. There are so many students in my shop, and they have all the time in the world to paint ot their hearts content. I sometimes struggle to find time to assemble, let alone paint.

Oh, and please don't label all us ebayers with the same brush - the only army i bought from Ebay was my necron army - if you want to call me a bandwagoner for that as well, well then youre a double idiot for that as well.

If anyone is the terrible hobbyist, its you.

Are you the guy from the Simpsons who works in the Dungeon and Android Baseball card shop?

How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

Hmm, seemingly there is incessant excuses/explanations why people refuse to devote time and effort into painting their armies. And I dont understand where all this elitist talk is coming from either. Ive seen the term more than once on this thread. Nobody is calling the 'non-painters' apologists since thats what they are ultimately doing. I wouldnt refuse a friendly game of 40k to someone who has not painted their army, I just simply prefer and respect the effort. furthermore, I dont think any of us in the designated 'painters' corner are asking the impossible of fellow players. We are not asking you to show up at the table with a 'eavy metal 5000pt army; but rather to take the smallest amount of pride in your minis, enough to slap a couple of colors on them. Its not about being a perfectionist, its about showing that you have gone beyond the black/white primer stage and despite skill or handicap, you have given life and a personal touch to something that you can define as 'yours.'

But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?

liam0404 wrote:But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?

It's not to satisfy him.

You're missing the point.

Monster Rain wrote:

liam0404 wrote:But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?

It's not to satisfy him.

You're missing the point.

What exactly is the point?

1. Some people like the hobby aspects.
2. Some like the list making aspects.
3. Some like the gaming aspects.
4. Some like the hanging with friends aspects.
5. Some all shades of all or only some of these aspects.

Live and let live. The people stating you should or shouldn't be doing something are essential missing the entire point. This is entertainment-something to kill time for personal enjoyment. Let them do what they want. Each one of the above can be remarked enagtively but frankly thats just stupid.

1. Some people like the hobby aspects. Dickface says "well you should take up painting"
2. Some like the list making aspects. Dickface says "well you should take up math formulas"
3. Some like the gaming aspects. Dickface says "you should take up chess"
4. Some like the hanging with friends aspects. Dickface says "well you should just hang out in a pool hall."
The only person who's a dickface in the above scenario is...Dickface.