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DooDoo wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I'm not a fan of partial DoA builds
The Dev squads will get lit up quick, as thats all there is gonna be to shoot at more than not

NTM the techmarine sillyness lol

You dont understand how to play a list like this do you?

Why is your response when someone says this won't work "You obviously don't know how to use this list"(paraphrased)?


it's very insulting, especially to people who have been playing along time and, most of the time, know what they are talking about.


the List has several obvious flaws.

the Devs and Scouts will be starting on the table. this will expose them to 1 full turn of the enemies wrath before your Assault squads and Techmarine show up. an Alpha strike list will just wreck your list in 1 round of shooting/first turn assaults and then wait patiently for your Assault squads to show up.

A shooty list will be protected against your Deep Strikes via Bubble wrapping and turtling.


and please post your lists in a different format.

this is very wordy

7 Assault Squad @ 230 pts (Meltagun; Meltagun)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
1 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Lightning Claw x1)

this is better

10 Assault marines (Lightining Claw, Melta Bombs, 2 Melta guns) 230 pts

we know your Sergeant is the one who has the LC and Melta bombs and he has a pistol as standard armament. obviously you would trade your CCW for the LC.

GT,

I would believe that you had played the game for a long time if you knew the rules (which in this thread you have demonstrated that you do not) and you understood how the list works. The list is designed to start everything on the table except for the tech marines. If you think that you can kill that many marines with cover saves and fnp and a round of shooting, you must be playing a different game than me.

Please, this discussion is getting pretty heated.


Do not feed the trolls.

maybe he's just playing IG ...

Do you have any idea how easy it is to ignore FNP?

No you don't I forgot you're not playing the same game as everyone else.

doubled wrote:I would go out onto a limb and say that the reason that no one is agreeing with this tech priest thing is that it is a one shot deal that needs to get lucky to work, and in some games puts you behind. Add in the inability to grab a decent invul to stop ap 2 or 1 and its just not a great option compare to other things in the codex. If you want to use it be our guest no one is telling you what you can and can't play. However in competitive army lists this guy will not be going in. I need my elite slots for other things.

another very good point!

I think the issue here is that the OP is trying to say that it CAN work, thou is arguing that that makes it viable.
there is a HUGE difference between what works and what is viable. the techmarine Can Work, but is not viable due to the points listed by Doubled.


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this is getting heated.

and just due to GT making a few rule mistakes does not mean that he doesn't know how to play... either way he is not the only one saying your plan doesn't work effectively. A great many people say this, and i dont thnk it makes sense to say they all haven't played long... I've played for years and the mistakes in your lists are very easy to detect and many people have been able to notice them.

I wouldn't say your list is awful if you don't deep striek the assault marines (if you do, please say goodbye to your scouts and devs against a tortie or semi well grounded list), but if def could have options which work much better such as land speeders, preds, and just not using things such as techpriests as one time deaad before theland hope to get a melta shot units.

if you want them in your list, have on e not two! maybe you can hand off 1 Kp, but handing away 2 is a bit muhc

DooDoo wrote:I would believe that you had played the game for a long time if you knew the rules (which in this thread you have demonstrated that you do not)

Everyone makes mistake occasionally. This game has a ton of rules. Believing that someone doesn't know how to play the game because of a minor quotation error is a non sequitor.

DooDoo wrote:The list is designed to start everything on the table except for the tech marines. If you think that you can kill that many marines with cover saves and fnp and a round of shooting, you must be playing a different game than me.

If the marines have cover saves, then you're doing something wrong, because cover is deadly to jump infantry. On average, if your assault squads spend even one turn jumping through cover, moving the minimum number of models in each squad into cover to gain the save, you're going to lose about two marines from each squad from difficult terrain alone before you make contact.

A well-built guard army at 2,000 points actually can and will inflict enough damage to scratch the remaining 32 marines down to manageable size. I've taken out bugs in a forest at that size with such a list, and believe you me, they're gonna have a ton more wounds than your jet horde will. Even with FNP and a cover save, a direct hit by a Russ will take out about 3/2 models on average, especially with the number on the board you'd have, not to mention the negligible-individually-but-powerful-in-squadrons heavy bolters poking out of those tanks. Executioners would just have a field day.

The more pressing issue is that with no AT in range at this point other than missile launchers (s8), a you're going to have to weather the entirety of a Leman Russ squadron or two. Most guard armies would even ignore the missile launchers and focus fire on your horde, just to whittle them down to "too small to be useful" once they connect. You're going to have two meltagun shots before you connect, which in all likelyhood just isn't enough, especially when you might have to suffer two rounds of fire before you can assault. At the very least jumping in, while risky, can save you from the problem of your enemy going first.

that isn't even to mention a Khan army list Sm where everything outflanks, then just tears through everything, knocking out all that nice ml and scouts in the back, your techmeltas are useless since any armor is going to be mostly, if not only, land speeders, maybe one land raider which you don't need the extra melta for.


Or what if you play my WIP guard army (when its done of course ) that has no tanks, you are going to have to deal with massive blob squads as well as outflanking blob squads with enough power weapons and plasma to eat through anything you have, and enough men to take a beating.

Your list isn't too prepared for these lists which are quite common in my gaming group, def the khan list. you would have wasted 120 points on two techpriests whith meltas that would be worse than a bolter against blob squads, and those missile launchers may get a bit of shooting butwill get knocked out by the outflankers.

The khan list is the same way. You seem to be assuming your enemy will have these things:
1-Little ap2 weapons to knock out fnp, which wont be happening when playing guard or many sm armies
2-no outflankers, or deep strikers that will mess up your entire backlines
3-masssive amounts of tanks which make your melta assault squads and these suicide melta units viable.

You could do much better with units that are able to handle many threats rather than just one.

And never mind the Green horde or Kan wall where every vehicle gets a 4+ save, and you eat outflanking koptas. As for your FNP and armour, 80 some attacks then a power klaw. How about nids, 2 mawloc list literally takes you apart piece by piece, as well as ymrgal genestealers apperaing in the same terrain you got your rockets in.

good points Doubled didn't think of those!

or even demon armies, dping down all over your lands, with almost, if any, tanks, and massive ways to lash you...

MekanobSamael wrote:

DooDoo wrote:I would believe that you had played the game for a long time if you knew the rules (which in this thread you have demonstrated that you do not)

Everyone makes mistake occasionally. This game has a ton of rules. Believing that someone doesn't know how to play the game because of a minor quotation error is a non sequitor.

DooDoo wrote:The list is designed to start everything on the table except for the tech marines. If you think that you can kill that many marines with cover saves and fnp and a round of shooting, you must be playing a different game than me.

If the marines have cover saves, then you're doing something wrong, because cover is deadly to jump infantry. On average, if your assault squads spend even one turn jumping through cover, moving the minimum number of models in each squad into cover to gain the save, you're going to lose about two marines from each squad from difficult terrain alone before you make contact.

A well-built guard army at 2,000 points actually can and will inflict enough damage to scratch the remaining 32 marines down to manageable size. I've taken out bugs in a forest at that size with such a list, and believe you me, they're gonna have a ton more wounds than your jet horde will. Even with FNP and a cover save, a direct hit by a Russ will take out about 3/2 models on average, especially with the number on the board you'd have, not to mention the negligible-individually-but-powerful-in-squadrons heavy bolters poking out of those tanks. Executioners would just have a field day.

The more pressing issue is that with no AT in range at this point other than missile launchers (s8), a you're going to have to weather the entirety of a Leman Russ squadron or two. Most guard armies would even ignore the missile launchers and focus fire on your horde, just to whittle them down to "too small to be useful" once they connect. You're going to have two meltagun shots before you connect, which in all likelyhood just isn't enough, especially when you might have to suffer two rounds of fire before you can assault. At the very least jumping in, while risky, can save you from the problem of your enemy going first.

On the topic of cover
BA can get a 5+ cover from a librarian
BA can get a 4+ cover from friendly (or enemy) squads
Scout bikes can provide a 4+ cover for the rest of the army while enjoying a 3+ turbo boost and 4+ FNP themselves.

I run BA a lot different than DooDoo, primarily in that I would never make an all comers list without scout bikes. Against IG when starting on the table everything would be behind the scout bikes after their turbo boost, and a single scout bike would be conga lined back to both a priest and librarian for a 3+ turbo boost 4+ FNP 5+ shield of sanguinius cover save (in case hydras get froggy it's still 5+ cover 4+FNP) My list does well at not getting blown off the table by a gunline.

I run a DOA/outflank list where everything can doa our outflank (but doesn't have to thanks to scout bike screens), so I don't have first hand experience running a lot of ML with BA, but I always run a quad missile havoc squad (nowhere near as good as BA dev squads) so I see BA dev squads as a viable option especially against IG. While they are pretty useless against a Leman Puff as a DOA player Vendettas are a far greater problem in my book. The 3 lascannons don't scare me, but the last thing I want to do is chase down fast scimmers with jump infantry. Quad ML are perfect for popping Vendettas, Artillery like Manticores/Basssies, and Chimera.

What I don't agree with is an all infantry list with dev squads not including scout bikes, and the kamakazie tech marine within an all infantry list. The #1 problem I have with the techmarine in DooDoo's list is the guy has open fast attack slots, and a MM scout bike costs just as much as the Tech Marine. An attack bike would have cover from friendly marines, FNP from a priest, and would get into MM range very quickly. It would also have the added benefit of being able to shoot every turn that it is alive rather than being a 1 shot wonder with a combi weapon.

I'm a bit confused as to how you get your Scout Bikers FnP at the same time that they provide your entire army a cover save. How big is the squad? Otherwise your whole army would be deploying in a column formation...I'm just a bit confused as to how that would work on the table.

L. Wrex

On the subject of out flankers, why is it hard to deploy in the middle of the board so that you can't be charged on the turn they come on? On the subject of cover, if you can't get cover on your infantry most of the time, you are doing something wrong


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On the subject of out flankers, why is it hard to deploy in the middle of the board so that you can't be charged on the turn they come on? On the subject of cover, if you can't get cover on your infantry most of the time, you are doing something wrong

You can deploy in the middle of the board, oh wait... white scar bikers can travel half the board with an assault...it wont matter where you are too much, they can get you.

Yes true with the cover, you should be able to get it, but your list just relies on the fact that you will face lists that are built somewhat like yours: with a bunch of everything staying on the board coming towards you. You have nothing which can deal with outflankers, nothing that can deal with ork hoards, nothing that can deal with armies without tanks...

and yet you still waste these points on a techpriest which can do something but isnt really viable...

@schadenfreude: Your list sounds interesting, I like the idea of it.


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i have been thinking of using scouts bikes with the teleport beacon, how well do they work?


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DooDoo wrote:On the subject of out flankers, why is it hard to deploy in the middle of the board so that you can't be charged on the turn they come on? On the subject of cover, if you can't get cover on your infantry most of the time, you are doing something wrong

also to mimic you


On the subject of your "Gem of the BA Elite Slot", why is it hard for you to realize why it is not an amazing option, and why, though it may work, there are better choices out there?

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'm a bit confused as to how you get your Scout Bikers FnP at the same time that they provide your entire army a cover save. How big is the squad? Otherwise your whole army would be deploying in a column formation...I'm just a bit confused as to how that would work on the table.

L. Wrex

I go with a full 10 man, but that's because I like having the option to combat squad them if I chose to outflank with the bikers. Bikes have a 3"base +2" unit coherency so if the bikes move into a conga line after the turbo boost 10 bikes can stretch out over 48" of board, or 5 bikes can stretch out over 23" of board. It's very easy to cover save the entire BA army with a single unit of scout bikes for cover and have a couple scout bikes left over to stretch the squad towards a gunline so that it can charge.

The only difficult part is deployment before the turbo boost, you have to eyeball that they will be in the right place after the turbo boost and the unit has to move 18" to get the cover save. Enemy units might try to disrupt the turbo boost of the scout bikes with their own fast scouting units like deffkoptas of vendettas, but scout bikes do have an upper hand in that they infiltrate and then scout, so a well placed infiltrate can help ensure the other side's scout moves won't disrupt your own.

Nevermind, read the rest of the thread and want to stay out of it.

What can I say that hasn't been all ready said. TP with a jump pack has 20% odds at killing AV14. If your list has empty Fast attack slots then there are many reasonably priced things there that do the job better (note LS's and AB's do not have to DS they can move 24" and have a Multi-Melta).

Other (elite) options are drop pod Dreads these also have meltas they arrive turn 1 and they can be place next to the target without much chance of scatter. Removal of an AV 13 walker is also rather tricky. Pod and Dread break in at 160pts

Also for a little more then your tech priests (including the base unit) you could take 10 Assault Marines and DS with 5 and 2 meltas 110pts ... the other 5 could land else where and cause trouble; I'd give the sergeant a PFist (125pts + 110pts total cost 235pts). Best of all unlike the Techpriest those Assault marines aren't one shot, If the enemy doesn't kill them off you can hunt the next vehicle.

Tri wrote:What can I say that hasn't been all ready said. TP with a jump pack has 20% odds at killing AV14. If your list has empty Fast attack slots then there are many reasonably priced things there that do the job better (note LS's and AB's do not have to DS they can move 24" and have a Multi-Melta).

Other (elite) options are drop pod Dreads these also have meltas they arrive turn 1 and they can be place next to the target without much chance of scatter. Removal of an AV 13 walker is also rather tricky. Pod and Dread break in at 160pts

Also for a little more then your tech priests (including the base unit) you could take 10 Assault Marines and DS with 5 and 2 meltas 110pts ... the other 5 could land else where and cause trouble; I'd give the sergeant a PFist (125pts + 110pts total cost 235pts). Best of all unlike the Techpriest those Assault marines aren't one shot, If the enemy doesn't kill them off you can hunt the next vehicle.

An all infantry list often has 30-50 assault marines with 6-10 melta guns, so there is no shortage of squads that they can cs to get 2 meltas in a 5 man deep strike unit.

In my DoA list I have 30-40 assault marines with 6-8 meltaguns, along with dante, libbie, honorguard and vanguard and it works pretty well. it is mostly for fun but i think it can be a good list, still need to work on it, but i find i usually have enough to deal with tanks without needing any dropping techmarines...

Sageheart wrote:

On the subject of your "Gem of the BA Elite Slot", why is it hard for you to realize why it is not an amazing option, and why, though it may work, there are better choices out there?

He obviously doesn't know how to play Blood Angels, hasn't played very long, or doesn't know the rules at all.

DooDoo wrote:On the subject of cover, if you can't get cover on your infantry most of the time, you are doing something wrong

So how do you? If you use forests, you crash into the trees (i.e. dangerous terrain tests eat jump infantry alive on a good day). If you're using units in your own army, you're effectively either splitting your assaults over two turns (hitting your opponent with half a hammer), or reducing your range by splitting into groups laterally before the final assault, which at the very least costs you a round of your admittedly not very impressive shooting, but can also reduce the range of your assault.

he canhide around terrain, that seems to work well for jump inf. and tanks. but it isnt a perfect situation, usually it fails against fast units which can always just zip around so the cover is negated.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Sageheart wrote:

On the subject of your "Gem of the BA Elite Slot", why is it hard for you to realize why it is not an amazing option, and why, though it may work, there are better choices out there?

He obviously doesn't know how to play Blood Angels, hasn't played very long, or doesn't know the rules at all.

QFT

I also came across this on YTTH the one time I visited there. I thought it was an interesting idea at best, but not something I would ever want to try.

I would agree that the Tech Marine is probably the most overlooked Elite choice for BA, but with good reason given that half of all BA units are in the Elite section and only 3 slots to give away. One of those is usually going to be a Sanguinary Priest because of 3 for 1 and FNP bubble. He is the real 'gem' of the BA Elite slots. Then you have Furioso Dreadnoughts, Assault Termies, Sternguard, Chaplains and Sanguinary Guard all competing for the last two slots. You would need to have a pretty irregular kind of BA list not to have already filled-out your slots with the above, before you even looked at the Tech Marine. Not that there is anything wrong with the Tech Marine, it's just there is an awful lot of hard hitting competition for that slot. Even in a Mech or Dread heavy list, Tech Marine still wouldn't be an obvious choice.

When we talk about the Tech Marine bomb. It is about the cheapest way to Deep Strike a Combi-Melta, but 60 points is still a bit expensive for a one shot suicide unit, doubly so when it means burning an Elite slot. I wouldn't want to waste more points by giving him a Power Weapon, even if your opponent does like Stelek suggested and ignores him after his shot, he's still going to be a bit useless.

If you really expect the Tech Marine to survive then why not pay 25 points more and do the same thing with a Sanguinary Priest and get an extra attack, Furious Charge and FNP, without burning a whole Elite slot? Not to mention throwing down FNP bubbles and force multiplying the rest of your army. That would seem to be an equally good deal and have much better synergy with a BA force.

The only time I might consider a Tech Marine Bomb is if I had 2x Furioso Librarians with Wings of Sanguinius, and some Honour Guard. Then I might consider taking a Tech Marine with a Jump Pack to support the Dreads (primarily), and I might well give him a Combi-Melta. That way even if his shot fails he can bounce off and try to repair a Dread, which would be money well spent. But in an all assault marine force the Tech Marine just doesn't fit.

I don't think a BA tank list or jump list has any shortage of elites slots.

Jump lists have priests as a 3 for 1, sanguinary guards, chaplains, and tech priests as their only only jumping options in the elites slots. After 3 priests and a sanguinary guard that's plenty of room to blow on a tech priest or chaplain, but let's face some basic facts. Chaplains are unpopular because their HQ versions are so much better, and a tech priest with a combi melta is just plain silly in an all jump list because it's loaded with DOA melta units.

Now in a mechanized list with a ton of preds and/or vindicators + razorbacks I could definitely see the use for a techmarine. A heavy tank list has no shortage of elite slots as 6 tanks and 6 TL AC razorbacks will quickly cause the list to run out of points before the player can even contemplate a flying fuiroso dread. Now let's ask what would happen if we added a techmarine to a tank list.

A 65 point techmarine with a power weapon is a decent CC character for his points, and as long as the servo harness remains on he can embark in a transport as adding a jump pack means he can only embark in a blood talon. If he joins a unit and is next to the priest in CC he will be very safe as all the shots will be aimed at the priest as any shots aimed at the tech priest is good news. Most of all the techpriest's greatest possible use would be to act as a DunDunDun......tech priest. A list with a lot of tanks especially vindicators is likely to have tanks that only have 1 gun get their 1 gun destroyed. The tech priest can detach and move 6" towards a damaged tank while the tank flat outs 18" to the techpriest. Being able to fix a broken main gun on a Vindicator, Razorback, or Baal pred would pay for the tech priest. Since so many BA vehicles only have 1 gun I'm surprised so few Ba tank players take a techpriest, especially at the 2,500 point level.

schadenfreude wrote:he can only embark in a blood talon.

Im guessing you mean stormraven?

schadenfreude wrote: If he joins a unit and is next to the priest in CC he will be very safe as all the shots will be aimed at the priest as any shots aimed at the tech priest is good news. Most of all the techpriest's greatest possible use would be to act as a DunDunDun......tech priest. A list with a lot of tanks especially vindicators is likely to have tanks that only have 1 gun get their 1 gun destroyed. The tech priest can detach and move 6" towards a damaged tank while the tank flat outs 18" to the techpriest. Being able to fix a broken main gun on a Vindicator, Razorback, or Baal pred would pay for the tech priest. Since so many BA vehicles only have 1 gun I'm surprised so few Ba tank players take a techpriest, especially at the 2,500 point level.

BA Techmarine only fixes on a 4(5+?) + with servo harness you need servitors to boost this, and IIRC BA Techmarines are not IC's but then can have a group of servitors (no point to having jump packs with servitors as they are the slowest model), servitors boost their chance to fix by +1 each and because Techamrines are not IC's they can not be singled out in the unit.

EDIT: I forget what initiative servitors have but do you always need to use a PF attack? or can you lose the higher strength attack to hit with a regular attack at their base initiative?
Becasue while popping out and hitting a vehicle with 7 PF attacks is fun, versus regular units it would kind of suck

Gibbsey wrote:
EDIT: I forget what initiative servitors have but do you always need to use a PF attack? or can you lose the higher strength attack to hit with a regular attack at their base initiative?
Becasue while popping out and hitting a vehicle with 7 PF attacks is fun, versus regular units it would kind of suck

This adds nothing to the thread but to answer your questions ...

Servitors and Techmarines get a bonus attack (If he takes a full harness 2 attacks) these happen at strength 8 initiative 1, in addition to the models other attack. A model cannot choose not to use this bonus attack.

Tri wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:
EDIT: I forget what initiative servitors have but do you always need to use a PF attack? or can you lose the higher strength attack to hit with a regular attack at their base initiative?
Becasue while popping out and hitting a vehicle with 7 PF attacks is fun, versus regular units it would kind of suck

This adds nothing to the thread but to answer your questions ...

Servitors and Techmarines get a bonus attack (If he takes a full harness 2 attacks) these happen at strength 8 initiative 1, in addition to the models other attack. A model cannot choose not to use this bonus attack.

I wasnt sure if the attacks were the same for the servitors aswell and it does show that techmarines with servitors have alot of attacks so they can be valuble as an elite slot (i think servitors are Initiative 3)

Gibbsey wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:he can only embark in a blood talon.

Im guessing you mean stormraven?

schadenfreude wrote: If he joins a unit and is next to the priest in CC he will be very safe as all the shots will be aimed at the priest as any shots aimed at the tech priest is good news. Most of all the techpriest's greatest possible use would be to act as a DunDunDun......tech priest. A list with a lot of tanks especially vindicators is likely to have tanks that only have 1 gun get their 1 gun destroyed. The tech priest can detach and move 6" towards a damaged tank while the tank flat outs 18" to the techpriest. Being able to fix a broken main gun on a Vindicator, Razorback, or Baal pred would pay for the tech priest. Since so many BA vehicles only have 1 gun I'm surprised so few Ba tank players take a techpriest, especially at the 2,500 point level.

BA Techmarine only fixes on a 4(5+?) + with servo harness you need servitors to boost this, and IIRC BA Techmarines are not IC's but then can have a group of servitors (no point to having jump packs with servitors as they are the slowest model), servitors boost their chance to fix by +1 each and because Techamrines are not IC's they can not be singled out in the unit.

EDIT: I forget what initiative servitors have but do you always need to use a PF attack? or can you lose the higher strength attack to hit with a regular attack at their base initiative?
Becasue while popping out and hitting a vehicle with 7 PF attacks is fun, versus regular units it would kind of suck

They are not exactly power fist attacks, they are +1 attack at S8 no armor save so no charge bonuses of any kind.

Hmmm odd they don't have IC, so I guess he would have to go with servitors. That would slow him down a bit, but when I said include him I was saying that with a 4+ no servitor repair roll. With servitors it will be a 2+, and the unit is a lot less fragile that it would be in a vanilla list due to FNP on the TM and servitors.

there are uses for techpriests, just not really like the OP said

when this thread first came up I thought "another weird idea thread that wont last a week." it's longevity is really surprising. techmarines suck. moving on....