Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You have to replace the harness with a jump pack, so homeboy cant fist something unless you pay 25, which I think is too much for a suicider

DooDoo wrote:You can also give homeboy some melt a bombs if you really want to make him annoying

... ok give who melta bombs? Tech-priests don't have the option, so have we moved on to sanguinary priests?

... Tech priest is a good model ...
it comes with 3 things that give it a reason to be the price it is.
Bolster Defence ... cool +1 to a cover save somewhere on the board. Doesn't matter how you up grade him it will always be there
Servo arm ... He gets one additional attack that is a power fist. He is one of the very, very few models that strikes at more then one initiative value. Lost the moment you give him a jump pack
Blessing of the Omnissiah... repair a vehicle on a 5+. Still works even if you give him a jump pack but if you're D/S then that’s wasting it.

So take a tech priest give him some servitor and use him to repair vehicles (pair of plasma cannons can be worth while). Heck he can do it all from the safety of his improved cover save.

^+1 Tri is right, there are several great reasons for taking a tech priest in any marine list, but you lose so many of the abilities your paying for if you deepstrike that you pay for things you will not use.

doubled wrote:^+1 Tri is right, there are several great reasons for taking a tech priest in any marine list, but you lose so many of the abilities your paying for if you deepstrike that you pay for things you will not use.

My version of the tech priest is a back field disruptor rather than a handyman.

DooDoo wrote:

doubled wrote:^+1 Tri is right, there are several great reasons for taking a tech priest in any marine list, but you lose so many of the abilities your paying for if you deepstrike that you pay for things you will not use.

My version of the tech priest is a back field disruptor rather than a handyman.

Yes,

"an overpriced for what he MIGHT do Disrupter"


BA's don't need more Melta and there are more reliable ways of disrupting your opponents backfield.


Techmarines are for repairing vehicles not for dropping in to maybe Combi-melt something.

How many games have you played using a BA list? Based on your advice, I infer that it is not many.

DooDoo wrote:How many games have you played using a BA list? Based on your advice, I infer that it is not many.

And perhaps his highness would be so good as to teach us? From his own extensive experience?

(+1 cookie for anyone who gets the reference)

Seriously, every poster who has formulated an argument against you, has been hit with some variation of 'you obviously don't play BA' when some people here have stated that they, in fact, DO play BA. They have also routinely and regularly highlighted the multitude of faults with the tactics you suggest; whilst you do nothing but quip oh-so-insightfully about leading us to water, as if you've discovered some hidden treasure and we're all fools for identifying it as the junk that it truly is.

Whilst there may be the case where you DoA, don't scatter, hit, penetrate and explode a Land Raider in Turn 2 exactly when you needed it, the liklihood of this happening is so obtuse as to be consigned to nothing more than a lucky streak of dice, rather than any display of excellent tactical acumen.

Seriously.

L. Wrex

DooDoo wrote:How many games have you played using a BA list? Based on your advice, I infer that it is not many.

none, but i am familiar enough with the BA rules and options to know that a single shot melta on a single model won't do much. and i play regular marines so i know all the stats and the inferred data.


BA can get melta in their Assault squads and don't need this suicide Techie to deliver it. it's just a free KP for your opponent that MIGHT make his points back.

ive played maybe 30 games with a BA DoA Jump pack army, have a good win streak, but ive been playing 40k for 6 years, and I think many of the people who have been posting have been playing 40k for a very long time and their advice should be looked at.

again your techpriest example coudl be used to maybe get something, which is true, if it works its a great way to use 60 points, but the CHANCES of it WORKING are so low that it isn't a perfect solution, and since there are other options which are more useful I would rather spend my points on those.


the point of 40k is not to have a plan that can work, such as a techmarine deep striking with a combi-melta, but rather you want a plan which has a higher chance of working in most situations. A techpriest is not that, and so is not entirely a worthwhile choice unless you have no other options. Does that make sense?

I have a friend who is a math teacher at NYU who plays 40k, and he uses this example to explain this:

In 40k you are required to be able to kill the tank, If you have a chocie between a Sm with missile launcher who lets say hits every time, and two orks who have a chance to hit once, twice, or not at all, you still want the SM since the point is to get that ONE hit in order to achieve a kill. the techpriest plan just gives you a chance rather than a high percent of winning which is what is needed.

make sense, maybe not best example

Jihallah wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

I am going to assume this was posted in a fit of troll/rage and ignore it. So lets both just step back from the computer and breath. I gave my opinion, no reason to insult me for it. I would like to use thsi time to remind people of Dakka's rule #1, and to try and keep the thread on track. Thanks!

I pointed out you don't read the posts in the thread. Is it an insult to say the sky is blue? keep on topic btw

DooDoo wrote:You can also give homeboy some melt a bombs if you really want to make him annoying

Can you get a harness AND a jumppack? combimelta, meltabombs AND powerfist attacks? Homeboy go them tanks on lockdown

I do read the posts thank you. But continuing this conversation will only derail the tread, and leave many people with hurt feelings. So lets hug, make up, and move on.

move on to what!

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:And perhaps his highness would be so good as to teach us?

"Gracchus: Then perhaps Caesar will be so good as to teach us, out of his own extensive experience? " Gladiator 2000

Look its quite simple it is not a gem if can be done better with hunter killer missile; At least with them there is the ability to do damage 6 times.

When this last came up it was with Marbo; who bring a single demo charge. Reasons that Marbos good and a tech priest isn't are simple, Marbo turns up (normally with a reserve roll boost) and is placed. He doesn't scatter he's just there ... next he has a demo charge which is good for people and light tanks. Lastly though it may scatter the demo charge will always go off, I have never once seen it fail to kill something ... even if it was just Marbo that got killed.

The cons outweigh the pros on this one. This not a sound tactic. Do you play BA doo doo? starting to wonder

I play BA very consistently, along with the other 5ed marine codices. This tactic has been useful when I have had no FA slots and I want some front lines melta that is not a scoring unit. Saying that a 60 pt techmarine is not as good as a sternguard squad is like saying a rhino wont keep your troops alive as well as a land raider. Points must be factored into the debate. In addition, due to the DOA rule, the techmarine is likely to come in early and on target.

Can't we just agree, that like 90% of other units in this game, that DooDoo's Techjumper may be situationally useful?

No. To do so would cause either the TECHJUMP ROXXOR or TECHJUMP SUXXOR crowd to lose face. Thus, this must be a highly polarizing issue, with much spittle and vitriol flung across the aisle, until the end of time or a thread lock, in which case we can safely walk away knowing that we were right, and our reasonable arguments would have eventually swayed the opposition had mod interference not brought about a premature resolution.

Commander Endova wrote:Can't we just agree, that like 90% of other units in this game, that DooDoo's Techjumper may be situationally useful?

Taken from my post: 'Whilst there may be the case where you DoA, don't scatter, hit, penetrate and explode a Land Raider in Turn 2 exactly when you needed it, the liklihood of this happening is so obtuse as to be consigned to nothing more than a lucky streak of dice, rather than any display of tactical acumen. '

Think that kind of sums it up right?

I thiink the main issue is that situational usefulness, by its very nature, won't be useful all the time, or 50% of the time, so why spend the points and slots on a 'maybe' unit simply because you can? If you can't justfiy the points expenditure by providing decent objective evidence (maths) then people will be inclined to think that there are far better ways to spend that points allowance on. 60 points isn't a small amount; that's 2 x power fists or 6 x meltaguns, even a Sanguinary Priest you could buy instead, and well...I'd rather have two power fists for my assault squads than something that only works in purely ideal circumstances.

L. Wrex

DooDoo wrote:I play BA very consistently, along with the other 5ed marine codices. This tactic has been useful when I have had no FA slots and I want some front lines melta that is not a scoring unit. Saying that a 60 pt techmarine is not as good as a sternguard squad is like saying a rhino wont keep your troops alive as well as a land raider. Points must be factored into the debate. In addition, due to the DOA rule, the techmarine is likely to come in early and on target.

Let me make a recommendation. Figure out how often this techmarine actually scores melta kills before dying (in how many games). Then model yourself six HK missiles, and in your next, say, three games, spend your points on those instead. Your vehicles are fast, so you should be able to shoot them all off the first turn. See if any of them end up making a tank kill. If you find that they make more kills on a game-by-game basis than your meltacide techmarine, then you will know that they are a more effective way of getting anti-tank in your army without spending FA or HS slots. If not, then post us some battle reports--we want to see this s*** in action!

This is, of course, unless your assault squads don't have meltaguns, in which case you should spend the points on those, and do the experiment that way.

You can get them from GW at eight dollars for five. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1400031&rootCatGameStyle=

With HK missiles you're stuck firing at the same facing of the vehicle as your main weapons. You're also stuck firing at the same target as your other weapons. A Baal Pred doesn't necessarily want to shoot at an ac/las pred; it's kinda stuck doing so or you've wasted your HK.

Similarly 6 HKs against AV13 is going to give you just as many pens as a Techjumper in side/rear armor plinking AV11 or 12 but without the benefit from AP1.

In short, dynamic angle of attack units like suicide melta do have advantages over a surplus of static fire like HKs. They also have a lot of disadvantages, but it's situationally useful.

HK missiles boost alpha strike though, and you can put them on your auto/las preds or your las/plas razors. I'm not advocating them as awesome equipment, but IMO, they are better than the techmarine.

No disagreement that 6 S8 shots have their uses.

If you're staring down 2 Land Raiders and a bunch of foot marines, though, those HKs are wasted points.

If you scatter with your techmarine or miss his melta shot, he's mostly wasted points, too.

If each HK explodes a rhino, awesome.

If our Techjumper explodes a Land Raider and miraculously kills the Chaplain inside in close combat a turn later, awesome.

HK missiles against a Hammerhead's front arc with Disruption pods are going to do nothing. Techjumper with rear armor should blow its gun off at the very least, and could live to charge a pathfinder squad to boot.

I mean yeah, both the tech jumper and HK missiles are what I would consider to be sub-optimal point investments. When they work, though, and it's truly difficult to mathhammer in-game effect on a DS suicide unit because the spread between works:doesn't work is so wide, then it's worth it.

Playing with it, it could have its uses - it is very situational. I personally would not pay 60 points for a single BS4 combimelta shot at 1KP that has a good chance of scattering out of double tap range.

Playing against it, i would ignore it. I am not afraid of a melta shot. When he landed he would do what he does and i would kill him. I would not need to redirect critical resources - he has 1 freakin' wound.

Yes, I play blood angels.

Lets look at scatter ... note this is not nice maths were possible I will simplify for the general good... I will assume that you are playing it safe and have placed the TP 6" away from the LR (only target of value).

1/3 you will not scatter what happens the other 2/3? Well you have the ability to move in any direction; since we are using fractions lets call all directions 1. That means that 50% (49.9r%) you will be moving out of melta range, making the best you’ll get a glance.

So is the other 50% safe? No there is a 6 by 6 Mishap zone directly in front of you since the average roll on 2D6 is 7 … well the chance of rolling 6 or higher are 72.2% … that said a 6 would only be a problem with a direct movement forwards ….


You know what I’m going to have to work this out fully but I’m loving the pure mathematics of this.

Decent of Angels will migate the DS issue a bit, still easy to scatter out of melta range of course

Illumini wrote:Decent of Angels will migate the DS issue a bit, still easy to scatter out of melta range of course

... i don't see that rule with the tech priest .... Will have to change my sums if it is ... was there an FAQ?

Tri wrote:

Illumini wrote:Decent of Angels will migate the DS issue a bit, still easy to scatter out of melta range of course

... i don't see that rule with the tech priest .... Will have to change my sums if it is ... was there an FAQ?

All models with Jump Packs benefit from the Descent of Angels rule. Check the wargear section.

MinMax wrote:

Tri wrote:

Illumini wrote:Decent of Angels will migate the DS issue a bit, still easy to scatter out of melta range of course

... i don't see that rule with the tech priest .... Will have to change my sums if it is ... was there an FAQ?

All models with Jump Packs benefit from the Descent of Angels rule. Check the wargear section.

... why the hell did they not add that to Decent of Angel.

Tri, the point isn't that the pure math says its effective -- it doesn't.

The point is that your opponent can't really afford to ignore it, especially if you've got a fair amount of DS assets like 2x Lance Libbies and 2x Jump Priest.

If you ALSO have 3x AC/las pred or vindicators and Baals with HK and Las/plas Razors (quite possible), then you can force him to pop smoke early, to protect against your LR shooting, making vulnerable against your DS later on, or pop smoke later on to protect against DS, making vulnerable against your LR shooting, etc.

Your opponent is often not perfectly rational, and will often react to a worse-possible-outcome case as opposed to something within 1 standard deviation of the norm.

In that respect, the 60 pt investment in a suicide DS melta guy can have more effect than a 60 pt investment in HK missiles due to the dynamism he can bring to the table. HK missiles are not going to change attack lanes or game play beyond what 6 extra missiles add to weight of fire. Dynamic entry can create more angles of attack. That's why throwaway DS guys are useful, beyond what straight math suggests. They don't just affect gameplay, they interfere with it.

With that said, the Techjumper is just about the worst possible choice for a suicide guy there is. But if you have low expectations, commensurate with a 60 pt cost, and no other Force Org options beyond Elite, then a Techjumper certainly could outperform other options.

sourclams wrote:Tri, the point isn't that the pure math says its effective -- it doesn't.

The point is that your opponent can't really afford to ignore it, especially if you've got a fair amount of DS assets like 2x Lance Libbies and 2x Jump Priest.

they might be a problem but and i may protect against them. The tech priest .... I'd look at him and ask why you've spent 60pts.

With that said, the Techjumper is just about the worst possible choice for a suicide guy there is. But if you have low expectations, commensurate with a 60 pt cost, and no other Force Org options beyond Elite, then a Techjumper certainly could outperform other options.

Ok straight question would you take a 60pts TP or look at your list and spend it on units you all ready had.

I personally can’t think of any time that I would choose to have 20% odds on an AV14 ... those odds are 6/35 of him making his points back.

Commander Endova wrote:Can't we just agree, that like 90% of other units in this game, that DooDoo's Techjumper may be situationally useful?

ive been saying that yes it works, just not as effectively as other units and so i would say to choose something else, but it does work. I just don't think well enough to be viable. but if i have 60 points and cant take many other options then i would consider it, but most likely would choose something else...