The Gem of the Blood Angels Elite Slots

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**sniperjolly**

Yes the truth hurts, it the Troll version of BOLS, that seeks only to piss off whoever reads it. Or at least it started like that, but they may have branched out to legitamate musings after I stopped reading (shortly after I started reading)

EDIT: Wait, how did I get sextuple-ninja'd? Did I just miss an entire page? *facepalm*

**sourclams**

It doesn't matter. If it makes your opponent adjust their game just a little bit, especially if they are forced to pop smoke early against a list like 6x Pred chassis, knowing that there's a deepstriking @sshole who can screw over a rhino squad with 3 pieplate tossers backing him up on the table certainly can change gameplans.

As to your statement that I can just "drop" one of my six Pred chassis from the AV13 wall... that right there is enough justification to take the suicide techpriest; I don't have to drop one of my Preds or convert an assault squad to jump packs and give up the razorback for the mech gunline, I can just take the 60 pt throwaway d00d.

**Sageheart**

i dont think one guy really would change my gameplans as i had said before.

what may change my gameplan would be a dping sternguard unit with melta-combis.

**sourclams**

You'd be surprised. If you're staring at 6 AV13 hulls and another 4 AV11 las/plas razorbacks, the addition of two jump pack blood lance librarians and two suicide techies certainly could change up your deployment lines, or force you to put another squad onto an objective or divert a more elite unit to babysit.

I'm not saying that a techpriest is a must-have unit, but I could certainly see one being better than worthless in proper lists, which is the general reaction in this thread.

**BloodThirSTAR**

Yeah it's really not something that is going to change your game plan. The tech marine could always mishap as well. Where is it written thou shalt field 6 preds?

I mean seriously you don't need all six to have a competitive army.

**sourclams**

Seriously, your responses are just getting stupid.

Of course he could mishap. He's 60 points. I don't care.

Your argument of 'just take less preds to fit in something else to do the same job as the 60 point guy' is not an argument. In the list that I'm discussing, Heavy, Troop, and Fast slots are at a premium, HQ and Elite by contrast are not. Dropping a premium slot to take a utility unit makes no sense. The list has 6 Preds. I want 6 preds. There is no room for land speeders in the list because it already has filled the Fast.

**Grey Templar**

My question is Why you are using up a BA elite slot that could be,

A Furioso Librarian with Wings.

3 Sanguinary Priests.

or some TH/SS terminators(accompanied by a Priest in TDA)

True he is 60 points, but i see losing the Elite Slot to be of far greater cost then the actual points. You have Melta covered by your Assault squads(who will already be Deep Striking or flying towards the enemy anyway)

IMO: Suicide Melta is for lists that sit back and shoot or are meched up and advancing and don't have Melta elsewhere.

IMO aswell: Suicide Melta is a bit of a desperate gamble maneuver and unless your list will rely on it for it's melta(which may not be a wise thing) then it really has no place.

**sourclams**

For their point cost, I just didn't like the role that the Furiosos played in the mech wall list. If I could have taken the standard 2x TLAC Dreads, then game on, absolutely.

The Furiosos just kinda plodded around, and the Libby upgrade put them at a similar cost to another 5 man squad in Razorback.

In general I buy Sang priests and then I just have Elite slots left over.

**Alpharius**

Lots of Mod Alerts for this thread...

Please remember to conduct discussions here that stay within the framework of the rules of this site.

Thanks,

**BloodThirSTAR**

I still don't see any evidence presented why 6 preds are a must have for BA razorspam. When you run six typically the army has no real close combat punch. It's just a highly mobile shooty army. If you think that the preds are always going to be able to shield the razorbacks that's just not the case as there are many units that can outflank or deepstrike and shoot to get behind the AV13 wall. Units such as vendettas can shoot over the preds while drawing a clear line of sight. If the argument is you must field 6 preds so any other fast attack unit is not viable that's not true. You'll need to provide a more convincing argument other than you have to have them.

**Happygrunt**

Alpharius wrote:Lots of Mod Alerts for this thread...

Please remember to conduct discussions here that stay within the framework of the rules of this site.

Thanks,

Was waiting to see how long this would take. Thanks for the reminder Alpharius!

**doubled**

Alright a tactfull aproach. The tech bomb is a viable tactic and option in the codex. Is it a gamble, yes. Is it to much of a gamble to take, depends on the player ymmv. Another benifit I did not see mentioned was the bolster defences option, or am I wrong in that and remembering the Vinilla Tech marine. I myself responded to the statement about Furioso dreads being useless, I have not lost a one on one standard game with my BA in months, and I run 2 of them so I know that is a statement I can argue against. So is a tech bomb a useable tactic for some armies and playstyles, yes. Is it something no one else looked at and now seeing it in print will change how many play the game probably not. Will I myself try this out just to see, most likely in a small game yes. Never turn away a possible tool in your codex, but this one is not going to make it into most lists with the elite slots it is competeing with. I would take a chaplin for a squad over the priest myself, for pretty much the same points.

**Sageheart**

i understand what you are saying Sourclam, i just think there are better ways to do it, such as blood lance libbies. the techie with melta can get its one shot and maybe it would be worthwhile, but i see other options as beingbetter than this one.

**Jihallah**

Happygrunt wrote:
Jihallah wrote:
Happygrunt wrote:
DooDoo wrote:Answer me this. Since mech BA have no room for speeders, where do you get your suicide melta from? Your troops? Why is that a good idea? Or, do you spend 205 pts on a 4 melta honor guard?

You dont USE a suicide unit. Its a waste of points, a waste of time, a waste of a slot and a waste of manpower. And why cant you take the speeders from FA? Mech armies generally are all loaded in transports, so there is no shortage of manpower. Razorbacks can be kitted to fill the void of Anti tank or anti-infantry if need be. So taking away ONE Ball pred for a MM landspeeder squadren (1-3, add to taste). With that set up, you have something that can pop down, shoot the tank you wanted dead, probably kill it, have the ability to fire again if you failed the first shot and have a higher survivability rate and kill rate then your tech marine, who has one shot no matter what, and after he shoots he is now in the middle of enemy territory with only a bolter. And the landspeeder costs the same price.

My army has exactly 0 suicide melta units, and runs fine. Sure, I have two melta guns, but they are in units DESIGNED to live. When building a list, you dont build with the intention of having half of it DIE by turn two. You make it be able to withstand punishment. I run a 5 man assault squad with a melta gun, plasma pistol, power weapon and priest. They have taken lots of shots and walked through it, have more then one shot and can capture an objective. Honestly, your idea is to give your opponent the benefit of taking away on of your elites slots, for MAYBE killing one of his tanks, which are showing up in non-meq books as squadrons of one to three now. And dont give me this "2+ armor save" thing. One lasscanon to the face and your dead. Not to mention lasscanons and their equivalents aren't very rare in 5th to show up 2 or more times.

Whilst he's trolling your responding to it badly, since he's mentioning the ol' 3 baal preds/3 vindi shenanigans, hence your FA's are 3 preds, no room for speeders

Also I gotta say your local meta must be odd if your example of "withstanding punishment" is a 5 man unit of marines with a priest... there are plenty of ways to get around FNP and marines armour, usually at the same time.

I'm sorry, 3+/4+ can take a lot of shots before dieing. And my razorback example was showing that sometimes the 3 baal preds isnt the best idea, as you still need some sort of fast anti-tank. And you can still get your anti-horde fix without the Baals. And the reason I responded like this to the obvious troll is to try and stop some new, poor, inexperienced kid from thinking that the DS Tech Marine melta idea was a good one.

Can you read? I bolded the important bit. Play plague marines, it will give you excellent insight on how to squish FNP marines. Plague marines are tougher, too! But not to a plasma cannon

**schadenfreude**

sourclams wrote:Seriously, your responses are just getting stupid.

Of course he could mishap. He's 60 points. I don't care.

Your argument of 'just take less preds to fit in something else to do the same job as the 60 point guy' is not an argument. In the list that I'm discussing, Heavy, Troop, and Fast slots are at a premium, HQ and Elite by contrast are not. Dropping a premium slot to take a utility unit makes no sense. The list has 6 Preds. I want 6 preds. There is no room for land speeders in the list because it already has filled the Fast.

You have 6 preds because you want 6 preds, not because you need 6 preds.

There are plenty of competitive mechanized BA lists that don't use 6 preds, the triple vindicator comes to mind.

Baal preds usually carry assault cannons.
If all the razorbacks are armed with assault cannons then the army has plenty of assault cannons.

Sometimes Baal carry flamestorm cannons, personally I think land speeders with MM/HF are better overall especially if Vindicators are the HS.

Assault cannon razorbacks+Vindicators+MM/HF land speeders is a perfectly viable BA mech list that doesn't contain a single pred, so you don't need a single pred in your list. The 6 pred list is a competitive list, but there are a lot of competitive mech BA lists that may or may not involve preds. Saying 6 preds is the only way to go is like trying to debate that your favorite flavor of ice cream is the only flavor that tastes good.

**Happygrunt**

Jihallah wrote:
Happygrunt wrote:
Jihallah wrote:
Happygrunt wrote:
DooDoo wrote:Answer me this. Since mech BA have no room for speeders, where do you get your suicide melta from? Your troops? Why is that a good idea? Or, do you spend 205 pts on a 4 melta honor guard?

You dont USE a suicide unit. Its a waste of points, a waste of time, a waste of a slot and a waste of manpower. And why cant you take the speeders from FA? Mech armies generally are all loaded in transports, so there is no shortage of manpower. Razorbacks can be kitted to fill the void of Anti tank or anti-infantry if need be. So taking away ONE Ball pred for a MM landspeeder squadren (1-3, add to taste). With that set up, you have something that can pop down, shoot the tank you wanted dead, probably kill it, have the ability to fire again if you failed the first shot and have a higher survivability rate and kill rate then your tech marine, who has one shot no matter what, and after he shoots he is now in the middle of enemy territory with only a bolter. And the landspeeder costs the same price.

My army has exactly 0 suicide melta units, and runs fine. Sure, I have two melta guns, but they are in units DESIGNED to live. When building a list, you dont build with the intention of having half of it DIE by turn two. You make it be able to withstand punishment. I run a 5 man assault squad with a melta gun, plasma pistol, power weapon and priest. They have taken lots of shots and walked through it, have more then one shot and can capture an objective. Honestly, your idea is to give your opponent the benefit of taking away on of your elites slots, for MAYBE killing one of his tanks, which are showing up in non-meq books as squadrons of one to three now. And dont give me this "2+ armor save" thing. One lasscanon to the face and your dead. Not to mention lasscanons and their equivalents aren't very rare in 5th to show up 2 or more times.

Whilst he's trolling your responding to it badly, since he's mentioning the ol' 3 baal preds/3 vindi shenanigans, hence your FA's are 3 preds, no room for speeders

Also I gotta say your local meta must be odd if your example of "withstanding punishment" is a 5 man unit of marines with a priest... there are plenty of ways to get around FNP and marines armour, usually at the same time.

I'm sorry, 3+/4+ can take a lot of shots before dieing. And my razorback example was showing that sometimes the 3 baal preds isnt the best idea, as you still need some sort of fast anti-tank. And you can still get your anti-horde fix without the Baals. And the reason I responded like this to the obvious troll is to try and stop some new, poor, inexperienced kid from thinking that the DS Tech Marine melta idea was a good one.

Can you read? I bolded the important bit. Play plague marines, it will give you excellent insight on how to squish FNP marines. Plague marines are tougher, too! But not to a plasma cannon

So... I fail to see your point. Lots of things die from plasma cannons. Your Example, plague marines, are one. You can take out tanks with a plasma cannon. So thats some heavy ordinance that kills a lot. You need an invul save, and to my knowledge, orks are the only army that has an invul bubble. Also, I know how to kill FNP marines. I play them, so I should know what their weaknesses are. I really dont have much more of a response, because between your insults and emotion thingys you have lost your own point.

**RinesofGlory**

I agree a land speeder would be better used in this scenario. A better use of your tech marine would be to give him a combie flamer and keep the servo harness. Drop out of a rhino and get an easy 14-20 hits on something with a single unit and isn't limited to just blood angels to be used in this way. Don't forget 4+ repair is pretty nice too + Bolster defense and 2 power fist attacks. A lot in a small package.

The main problem with your strategy is the risk of being mishap-ed needing to land within 6 inches of a tank. The risk is to great even with a 60 point model.

Consider using Legion of the damned with a MM and MG. Even a 5 man squad stands a chance to shoot more meltas at more tanks in the next run because of 3+i saves and being fearless. They re roll their scatters so can be used more aggressive and only need 12inch for 2d6 with the MM. Give the Leader a PF and now you can do it right next to a dreadnought and dare it to charge you.

**Jihallah**

Well you seem ok saying implying that someone would be stupid to use the DS'ing tech marine, but I gotta say Sourclams and others have argued it logically and with a voice of experience, not "MAH SOLDIERS AREN'T HERE TO DIE! SUICIDE UNITS ARE WRONG!".

That and you DONT read, which is why you ask "why can't you take speeders in the FA?" and other silly questions, when the answers are literally in the thread in front of you.

@rines of glory- thats actually a interesting idea, when you add a combiflamer sarge and flamer tac marine in the combat squad in said rhino. It's still and elites slot though, which is a competetive slot in vanilla marines...

**RinesofGlory**

Jihallah wrote:Well you seem ok saying implying that someone would be stupid to use the DS'ing tech marine, but I gotta say Sourclams and others have argued it logically and with a voice of experience, not "MAH SOLDIERS AREN'T HERE TO DIE! SUICIDE UNITS ARE WRONG!".

That and you DONT read, which is why you ask "why can't you take speeders in the FA?" and other silly questions, when the answers are literally in the thread in front of you.

@rines of glory- thats actually a interesting idea, when you add a combiflamer sarge and flamer tac marine in the combat squad in said rhino. It's still and elites slot though, which is a competetive slot in vanilla marines...

That's precisely how I use him. Usually only if I take a LR or I also Like to run the Master of the Forge in the same way. Get 6 Dreds on the table and Support support a tactical squad for 4x flammer drop - Usually roasts an entire squad.

**Jihallah**

RinesofGlory wrote:
Jihallah wrote:Well you seem ok saying implying that someone would be stupid to use the DS'ing tech marine, but I gotta say Sourclams and others have argued it logically and with a voice of experience, not "MAH SOLDIERS AREN'T HERE TO DIE! SUICIDE UNITS ARE WRONG!".

That and you DONT read, which is why you ask "why can't you take speeders in the FA?" and other silly questions, when the answers are literally in the thread in front of you.

@rines of glory- thats actually a interesting idea, when you add a combiflamer sarge and flamer tac marine in the combat squad in said rhino. It's still and elites slot though, which is a competetive slot in vanilla marines...

That's precisely how I use him. Usually only if I take a LR or I also Like to run the Master of the Forge in the same way. Get 6 Dreds on the table and Support support a tactical squad for 4x flammer drop - Usually roasts an entire squad.

Sounds like a fun list

Sounds like it needs speeders for mobile AT, as the rest of the AT seems to be dreads.

**Mattieau**

BA have an abundance of melta in their other slots. So instead of filling your elite slots with techmarines that will get off one shot and be slaughtered, possibly even without having an effect, it would be far smarter to fill it with Furioso's or priests or even termies.

**Tri**

... I said this earlier and I'll say it again. Tech priest is worse then the same points of HK missiles ... and i think HK are overpriced wastests of space.
(immobilised or worse)
TP VS AV ... ignoring scatter
10 = 568/1296 = 43.8%
11 = 544/1296 = 42%
12 = 504/1296 = 38.8%
13 = 448/1296 = 34.5%
14 = 376/1296 = 29.0%

6HK VS AV ...
10 = 1-(1-(52/216))^6 = 80%
11 = 1-(1-(40/216))^6 = 70.7%
12 = 1-(1-(20/216))^6 = 44.1%
13 = 1-(1-(16/216))^6 = 37%
14 = 1-(1-(4/216))^6 = 10.6%

So unless you're attack a land raider you would have been better off with HK ... isn't that sad. Personally I'd look at my list and see where i could spend 60pts that wasn't a TP or 6HK missile but if you're gona wast the point wast them on the one that doesn't give at KP's

**Illumini**

Tri wrote:
(immobilised or worse)
TP VS AV ... ignoring scatter
10 = 568/1296 = 43.8%
11 = 544/1296 = 42%
12 = 504/1296 = 38.8%
13 = 448/1296 = 34.5%
14 = 376/1296 = 29.0%

This, plus the free KP is the biggest issues with the tactic. He is not reliable. When you get suicide-whatever, you want it to take out something important before it dies. These numbers are not good enough, and if you add scatter too, they will drop a bit more. The reason f.ex. termicide is popular is because it is decently reliable.

Sourclams - devils advocate much? I agree that many posters have gone overboard, but this just isn't a good tactic. Those 60pts could be spend on pretty much anything else in the list and be better spent. HK missiles, power fists, inferno pistols etc. etc. As others have said, you don't NEED 6 preds, you don't NEED suicide melta, and even if you want 6 preds and suicide melta, you still have other options: libbies (which you already use - how much suicide stuff do you need?), sternguard, assault marines, furioso.

**Happygrunt**

Jihallah wrote:Well you seem ok saying implying that someone would be stupid to use the DS'ing tech marine, but I gotta say Sourclams and others have argued it logically and with a voice of experience, not "MAH SOLDIERS AREN'T HERE TO DIE! SUICIDE UNITS ARE WRONG!".

That and you DONT read, which is why you ask "why can't you take speeders in the FA?" and other silly questions, when the answers are literally in the thread in front of you.

@rines of glory- thats actually a interesting idea, when you add a combiflamer sarge and flamer tac marine in the combat squad in said rhino. It's still and elites slot though, which is a competetive slot in vanilla marines...

I am going to assume this was posted in a fit of troll/rage and ignore it. So lets both just step back from the computer and breath. I gave my opinion, no reason to insult me for it. I would like to use thsi time to remind people of Dakka's rule #1, and to try and keep the thread on track. Thanks!

**Sageheart**

overall this is a pretty awesome thread

**DooDoo**

You can also give homeboy some melt a bombs if you really want to make him annoying

**Sageheart**

meltabombs wont help... he cant assault when he drops, he will repeat will be killed before he can use them

**BloodThirSTAR**

You can give VV the meltabombs. One game I was able to charge three preds and blew them all off the table. The look on my opponent's face was priceless.

**Sageheart**

Vanguard Veterans with meltabombs are good! i like them

**Jihallah**

Happygrunt wrote:

I am going to assume this was posted in a fit of troll/rage and ignore it. So lets both just step back from the computer and breath. I gave my opinion, no reason to insult me for it. I would like to use thsi time to remind people of Dakka's rule #1, and to try and keep the thread on track. Thanks!

I pointed out you don't read the posts in the thread. Is it an insult to say the sky is blue? keep on topic btw

DooDoo wrote:You can also give homeboy some melt a bombs if you really want to make him annoying

Can you get a harness AND a jumppack? combimelta, meltabombs AND powerfist attacks? Homeboy go them tanks on lockdown