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Just a core of:

Elites
10 Trueborn with 4x blaster,haywire grenades 200
10 Trueborn with 4x blaster,haywire grenades 200
10 Trueborn with 4x blaster,haywire grenades 200

Troops (You can split these into 4x10's if you want to pick more targets, but imo the 20 is better at taking casualties)

20 Warriors with 2x Dark Lance 230
20 Warriors with 2x Dark Lance 230

Heavy Support
Razorwing w/ Night Shields, 4x Monoscythe 155
Razorwing w/ Night Shields, 4x Monoscythe 155
Razorwing w/ Night Shields, 4x Monoscythe 155

is 1525, which leaves you with 325 points to throw in Haemonculi, kit out a CC unit, buy random Raiders, Shardcarbines for one of the TB units, etc. The core should look something like this with minor variations, it is strong enough to shoot down most infantry swarms via ~70 splinter weapons and 12 monoscythe missles, and there are 22 darklight weapons in the list, which is enough to even deal with swarms of low AV.

I am only responding to a few points you made dash. Some good feedback with the others, I do admit... But;

Dashofpepper wrote: I rarely see an IG player without a PBS. .

The how about a crucible of malediction. Those PBS are all LD9.. but all of the models have to test. A minor one-shot upgrade, deployable from extremely fast vehicles. Could have only a minor effect often but potentially a huge threat & force the player to consider more options, make more decisions thus simply make more mistakes.

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:, more meat

As beastmasters seem to be potentially amazing, 1-5 beast masters with up to 5 Khymerae each. Most of which have a 4+ invulnerable. Starting adding the seemingly obligatory (I can now see why he is a FM) Baron for the cover-saves. Problem with Leadership, start adding some grisly trophies. From what's availible, seems like quite a tough meat shield. The razor-things with so oh-so-many wounds, efficiently; They don't have the Swarm USR as far as I can tell.

Dashofpepper wrote: Heat Lances + Reaver jetbikes are a suicide unit .

So I assume you've tried both a 3-man 1-lance/blaster units as well as the 6-man dual-weapon loadouts? I agree they are essentially a suicide unit. So have you tried fielding 45pts+ worth of mandrakes. Could they be made to work, not to entirely fill a roll but disrupt the seamless workings of the powerful well-oiled IG mech machine. They could prove to be worthless, but I am asking a question to answer one of yours, if that helps?

Try something like this. It's more limited on it's anti-infantry than the previous list but I think it makes up for it:

Baron-105

2xHaemonculi-100

4 Grotesques-205
Raider w/Aether Sails

4 Grotesques-205
Raider w/Aether Sails

2x5 Warriors-240
Raider, Blaster

3x5 Wyches-375
Venom w/2 SC's, Haywire Grenades

9 Hellions-169
Champ, Agoniser

2x3 BMs-288
4 Kymerae, 4 Flockwings

3xRavagers-315

It's 2pts over so shave where you like. 5 Must deal with CC anti-tank, 2 standard CC for picking up droppings out of vehicles, Pretty solid anti-infantry shooting, and 7 ranged anti-tank that should last into the game since he's got other, more immediate threats. Should work against most other armies as well.

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

I am new to this forum but not to wargaming, started back in 1990, my first 40k book was Rogue Trader. I have played a lot of 40K tournies out here in California, probably over 100 from rogue traders to local game store tournies.

...gets flustered when hit I win button breaks.

Alright, those two statements don't work with each other.

Either you've been playing consistently since 1990 and realize that my old Dark Eldar were the oldest codex in all of 40k, and far from an "I win button" and are just being a rude, or you're a complete noob who hasn't been playing since 1990 but likes to make broad generalizations that don't reflect reality.

DE have never been an "I Win" button. I don't expect them to be, but I don't like the idea that another army *is* an "I win" army against mine.

Dashofpepper wrote:DE have never been an "I Win" button. I don't expect them to be, but I don't like the idea that another army *is* an "I win" army against mine.

That list you posted was sub par, and I don't think the fact that it had problems against IG means that they have a "I win button" against Dark Eldar. I'd give Hulksmash's or MikeMcSomething's ideas a spin before doing anything drastic.

Again; I think that Longfang/Rocketspeeder/Razorback Spacewolf spam would beat that list harder than Mech IG for a few reasons. Tempest's Wrath has also just gotten a whole lot better lately.

Monster Rain wrote:That list you posted was sub par,

LOL, that was HARSH.

I really like Hulk's list.

But are the aether sails really necessary?

Davicus wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:That list you posted was sub par,

LOL, that was HARSH.

You know, when you take a line out of context and then make a comment like that it almost seems like you're trying to make trouble.

How about this?

Monster Rain wrote:
That list you posted was sub par, and I don't think the fact that it had problems against IG means that they have a "I win button" against Dark Eldar. I'd give Hulksmash's or MikeMcSomething's ideas a spin before doing anything drastic.

That was still HARSH.

Dash - I think this is evidence that Gork and Mork miss you and want you back. I like you better as an Ork player than a DE player anyways. Miss your Batreps.

kaiservonhugal wrote:Dash - I think this is evidence that Gork and Mork miss you and want you back. I like you better as an Ork player than a DE player anyways. Miss your Batreps.

Or maybe his Tau. He have a static Tau army (consisting of sniper drones, broadsides, FWs) which he claims to be very good, but we haven't seen it in action.

That's a bit better.

Still doesn't really seem like you have pure motives. I could be misunderstanding this whole thing though.

Usually I would say no but the Grotesques aren't fleet so I can see why you might like the extra movement. Having said that 24" flat out + 21" move, disembark + assault (Grotesques are going to be on 40mm bases to you can get a bit move from the disembark) is already more than enough in most situations. The only thing the Aethersails add is the ability to reserve and hit the opposite board edge the following turn.

Personally I would change things around so the Wyches go in the Raiders, Warriors in the Venoms. Drop 1 unit of Wyches, the Aethersails and probably a couple of Grotesques (or trim the Beastmaster units) and you should be able afford to bump the remaining two units of Wyches up to 10 strong which would make them a reasonable anti infantry unit (5 Wyches aren't going to do much, particularly without an Agoniser).

Having now looked at your list Dash I'm wondering why you have shifted so rapidly away from the Wych style list you ran with the old codex. Admittedly they aren't as awesome as they used to be, and building a pure Wych force is tricky (they need some support from other units) but with the across the board points increase in Darklight weapons I don't think you can completely rely on them for anti tank any more. Its almost as if you have tried to build the old Warrior Dark Lance Spam list from the old codex (with Venoms and Blasters instead of Raiders and Dark Lances) and I really can't see it working very well without some significant changes. Imo that style of list needs the Duke so it can Deep Strike in and do damage and Blast Pistols so the troop Warriors are a threat as well. The new codex plays much more like an Eldar list, you have to maximise synergy between units to get the best out of them and simply spamming multiple identical units is necessarily the best way to go.

I suggest re-thinking everything you think you know about DE. Hear me out.

It's a new codex. Don't even begin to think of them in any way, shape or form as the old DE. They are a completely different army. It's a realization that has dawned on me over time with my nids. At first I tried recreating my old nid armies in the same fashion as my old codex and just got stomped. Only recently have some of the finer details and points of the new codex come to peoples attention (like what...6 months after it's release). I guess tervigon/hive guard spam just became the norm and everyone just felt that must be the way to go. I agree they are key units but there are some great support units elsewhere in the codex that just makes the lists even nastier.

Full mech IG are hard to beat, that's just a fact that can't be changed. Playtest extensively with lots of different lists. Not just with the units that look competitive, but also with those that don't. Try and learn some new tricks and don't be afraid of losing games. Others have said it before and I agree with them. The best way to learn a new army is to step back and think it through from the beginning. I just get the feeling that you are stuck in an old mind set with the old DE.

Good luck.

Monster Rain wrote:That's a bit better.
Still doesn't really seem like you have pure motives. I could be misunderstanding this whole thing though.

I think his motives are impure too! here's a quote from earlier in the thread

Your list is bad man - really bad

Davicus you so, had to have ignored that and head-hunted Monster



@Power guy
Aethersails as you said help with coming in from reserves, but having a ~30+ inch flat-out, finding cover, avoiding terrain, not having to deploy perpendicular to the thing you want to assault etc, there's alot of subtle impact in that 5 point upgrade. On an important unit it's going to be 2-4% of the total cost, cheap enough for me to justify the expense for the versatility.

My concern for Hulks list is there's only 9 at sources, 2 of them are on the Grotesques and another two are blaster+DL in a box - something that I never feel happy doing - it feels like it's going to depend hevily on ravagers being able to have two consecutive turns of good shooting.


@Hulk, why 169 on hellions over another choice, from to look of the list you seem to be thinking of utilising splinterpods sticking them in anti infantry role? Possibly to have the baron dro into them from beasts too? I'm not too sure!

Dashofpepper wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:You need disruption units. Ones that are a threat that will open up the rest of your army and give it a little more time. You currently don't have a "priority" weapon soak unit or a deal with me now unit. I'd suggest finding a way to work one in, but that's just me

Like what?

Well, in my recent battle vs Tau, I had 8 Incubi led by an Archon and a Haemonculus. The whole Tau army tried to take them down early in the game but they failed, thanks to FNP. This unit can soak up an incredibly amount of fire.

Yeah I was tempted to suggest a unit of Incubi in place of one of the Grots in Hulks list for just this reason, Incubi with a 3+ 4++ vs 6+ 4+. I'm not 100% on if incubi are genuinly more resilliant (after there's not much that ID T5). Inucubi would provied another threat vector for the opponent and still dish out a different style of CC beats, but be able to plug hole where the other would fail vis a vis

Aether sails are for making sure those units are viable to charge a gunline the turn after they come in. They'll make combat as long my opponent isn't within 6" of the table edge the second turn their on. This is important in making them a priority target.

For extra anti-tank you guys also missed the haywire grenades on the wyches which makes them a potent stunlock unit for anti-tank. The reason they don't have the raiders is to force your opponent to make a choice. Kill the raiders/ravagers in the back or kill the grotesque raiders and wych venoms in the front. By the way, this sort of list instantly should allow your Ravagers an extra turn or two of shooting simply because of proper saturation.

This is what I meant by disruption units.

First off, the issue of having DH inquisitors in every IG army will hopefully be resolved soon with a new codex that doesn't lend them out to everyone.

Secondly, the comment about changing nothing if the list is only weak against mech guard would be great if mech guard wasn't on 1/2 of the top tables at most tournaments. At adepticon I think 1/2 the armies in the tournament were mech guard.

grotblaster wrote:First off, the issue of having DH inquisitors in every IG army will hopefully be resolved soon with a new codex that doesn't lend them out to everyone.

According to the latest DH codex, there's no allies section at all.

I also don't understand how this list is "tailored to beat Mech IG" like he claimed. He claimed pre-new codex, he spammed Dark Lances to beat Mech IG. So in this codex, he decided to take almost no Dark Lances?

Agree with the folks saying his spam units aren't viable. Mech IG has little to fear from this list besides Ravagers, so they will always be shot first. Remaining units aren't good enough to win the day. Need more threats.

I think it's a WH inquisitor that has the psychic power that forces a morale check, right? The WH codex still has its ally section and will be around indefinitely.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

My solution with the old codex was to run a wych cult. 6 units of wyches with two blasters each and everyone with haywire grenades....along with Lelith and her retinue. Three warrior raiders to back them up with some static anti-tank, and triple ravagers packing disintegrators (STR7 AP2 small blast) to handle hordes, terminators, MEQs, and sometimes even transports.

Statistically, one wych unit should get a 12" charge bonus, I can give them same to Lelith and her unit and voila - an alpha strike that lets me use haywire grenades against static vehicles in the assault on turn 1, backed up by blaster support and disintegrator fire. Presuming I go first, I had a good shot against Mech IG / Space Wolf armies. Going second meant either deploying to try getting cover from terrain, or reserving everything - either way, it was going to be a largely uphill fight.

With such tactics, I dominated the tournament scene this past year, fighting my way to a 36-1 win/loss record with my Dark Eldar. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am new to this forum but not to wargaming, started back in 1990, my first 40k book was Rogue Trader. I have played a lot of 40K tournies out here in California, probably over 100 from rogue traders to local game store tournies.

...gets flustered when hit I win button breaks.

Alright, those two statements don't work with each other.

Either you've been playing consistently since 1990 and realize that my old Dark Eldar were the oldest codex in all of 40k, and far from an "I win button" and are just being a rude, or you're a complete noob who hasn't been playing since 1990 but likes to make broad generalizations that don't reflect reality.

DE have never been an "I Win" button. I don't expect them to be, but I don't like the idea that another army *is* an "I win" army against mine.

"What I got from this post was "I lost my I win button, I am having trouble using the same tactice over and over and winning, so I am going to complain about it"
I then read further and saw his list. Min squads, maxed heavy and special weapons. Power Gamer tourny player, easy to spot. Doesnt play for fun, plays to win. Pure and simple. gets flustered when hit I win button breaks. "

If your going to qoute people please include the entire qoute, not just the part you want. I never said that DE had an I win button, I said YOUR I win button broke, and you are frustrated about it.

And with the bolded statement you have already given up and excepted you cant beat Mech IG. Like I said, once you think you cant win you already lost.

So as I suggesteed get more guys, play an non competitive list, learn some new tactics with a new book. Find your I win button with the new book.

And yes I have been playing for a long time and maybe I was being a little rude. I apologies.

Flavius Infernus wrote: The WH codex still has its ally section

Negative, it does not. No more inquisition allies in either direction.

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
"What I got from this post was "I lost my I win button, I am having trouble using the same tactice over and over and winning, so I am going to complain about it"
I then read further and saw his list. Min squads, maxed heavy and special weapons. Power Gamer tourny player, easy to spot. Doesnt play for fun, plays to win. Pure and simple. gets flustered when hit I win button breaks. "

If your going to qoute people please include the entire qoute, not just the part you want. I never said that DE had an I win button, I said YOUR I win button broke, and you are frustrated about it.

And with the bolded statement you have already given up and excepted you cant beat Mech IG. Like I said, once you think you cant win you already lost.

So as I suggesteed get more guys, play an non competitive list, learn some new tactics with a new book. Find your I win button with the new book.

And yes I have been playing for a long time and maybe I was being a little rude. I apologies.

DASH OF PEPPER THROWDOWN TIME.

Now he's gonna challenge you to a game, win while stupidly drunk and then post a battle report on dakka. I cant wait.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote: The WH codex still has its ally section

Negative, it does not. No more inquisition allies in either direction.

False. Allies are valid if you have a print Codex.

Personally, I don't know what the big deal about disintegrators is. We needed that cheese in our old dex, but no one honestly thought we were going to get to keep the 3 plasma cannon gunboats, did they? Same goes for 10pt dark lances and several other things.

I do think the new wych weapons are annoying to deal with, but the new shardnets can be better in that they can both reduce a particular model's attacks more than once, and they can do so even if they aren't using 2 CCW or CCW/pistol. The old defensive weapon skill thing wasn't that good anyway. Whatever.

Lelith did get a huge cost increase, but the whole reason she was used before is because she was undercosted compared to a similarly kitted HQ. She's still perfectly usable.


Also, I'm looking at your list and frankly not surprised - at all - that you're having trouble with Mech IG. It's clear from your list that you've made a decision that blasters are amazing. I agree that they're good, especially now that they got a range bump, but 16 is a lot and the range still isn't THAT good, especially when you're mounting so many of them on the trueborn squads like that. You're running into the exact problem that is starting to lead people away from trueborn blaster boats in the first place... they can't move more than 6" without disembarking if they want to shoot. That means either suicide, or being out of range. Frankly, I think it was a clear development decision at GW to limit how good blaster boats could be, particularly given the "no disembarking" restriction on retrofire jets and aethersails. It wouldn't be suicide if you could find some mid-field cover to disembark them into... but you can't always plan for that.

Here's what I've been toying with for trueborn anti-tank.

3 trueborn
2 dark lances
-Raider
-FF
-NS (optional...probably won't help against guard, but will against other armies)
156/166 pts.

3 lance shots and who cares if it has to sit still... the guard aren't coming at you with infantry anway. You could also bump the body count (say, to about 5) and just drop the trueborn off in cover somewhere and use their raider as one of your "front" raiders to screen your real vehicles behind it. It still presents a threat, and has a DL. Or just drop the raider altogether and take 3 x 5 man trueborn squads with 2 lances each and put them all in cover for 110 pts per squad. There's less output per turn, but the DLs should all be firing from turn one, and be more survivable, so it'll be better than even.

I'm also not seeing any reavers or scourges, both of which have better speed, and thus range, with their anti-tank. Neither unit is all that hardy, but Scourges can DS and wreak some havoc, especially if you DS them into cover (who cares if you lose one) and reavers can turbo for a 3+ cover on turn one. Let the guard shoot at that for awhile.

Are you using the Baron just for his +1 deployment roll? I suppose he's not terrible at vehicle busting with his Str 6 on the charge (7 with enough pain tokens) and 5 attacks. Do you DS him?

I don't know. In our last codex, we all had cookie cutter armies because there were few viable units in each force org type. You seem to be carrying that mentality over into this edition, and have decided that 3 unit types are the "best" for all comers: Tri-DL ravager, SMU warrior squads w/ blaster, and trueborn blaster boats. But of course, those units cant handle *everything*, no unit can (or should be able to from a game design perspective). There's a lot more in our codex than that, including quite a bit capable of taking out IG tanks in the backfield. You're just not using any of it.

I think our new dex rewards more variety than you're using.

Stubby wrote:

DASH OF PEPPER THROWDOWN TIME.

Now he's gonna challenge you to a game, win while stupidly drunk and then post a battle report on dakka. I cant wait.

That is how he rolls. Come on Dash! Do some drunken donuts in the IG parking lot!

Fetterkey wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote: The WH codex still has its ally section

Negative, it does not. No more inquisition allies in either direction.

False. Allies are valid if you have a print Codex.

Fetterkey and Flavius are correct.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=11200008a

And let's drop the personal comments about other posters, please. No one's crossed a line yet, but these things escalate quickly. It's turned into a good conversation, and I'd hate to lock the thread.