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The first GT that promises me a fifth of Captain Morgan available for my...personal examination upon arrival is getting my sign up.

Dashofpepper wrote:The first GT that promises me a fifth of Captain Morgan available for my...personal examination upon arrival is getting my sign up.

LOL I would except a nice micro-brew beer. Good beer + 40K = win.

Stubby wrote:
DASH OF PEPPER THROWDOWN TIME.

Now he's gonna challenge you to a game, win while stupidly drunk and then post a battle report on dakka. I cant wait.

And, if history proves to be a guide to the future, the final turn or two will have incredibly blurred photographs as Dash attempts to reconcile his chemically adjusted sense of sight with what is coming through the viewfinder.

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:The first GT that promises me a fifth of Captain Morgan available for my...personal examination upon arrival is getting my sign up.

LOL I would except a nice micro-brew beer. Good beer + 40K = win.

Did you mean Accept or Expect?

Either way, I'm with you. Hard liquor is for after-hours. Good beer is for with the game.

Mannahnin wrote:

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:The first GT that promises me a fifth of Captain Morgan available for my...personal examination upon arrival is getting my sign up.

LOL I would except a nice micro-brew beer. Good beer + 40K = win.

Did you mean Accept or Expect?

Either way, I'm with you. Hard liquor is for after-hours. Good beer is for with the game.

Im with Mannahnin on this one...Accept or Expect either way beer is awesome for in game times followed up by Capt. Morgan for after play.

Dash:
I read the thread. Sorry that I have no 'dex advice, but two items:

1. Perhaps find a willing parking lot player to go against, but not for a normal game; Tell him that you want to start a game, but once it's going South for you, stop the game, reset, analyze and start over. 3 or 4 starts like that might help you ... hmm, well, like learning Chess. Moves were good until you pulled the knight out, so you go back to that point and try the bishop instead. Maybe not *quite* as plausible with 40k, but pick a night or Saturday and devote 3 hours to getting in 4 or 5 *starts*.

2. Add another DE player to the experiment. Old codex or new, you know your DE, but still, that guy standing next to you, on your side, might help see something you missed *as you're playing* instead of second-guessing you online. Another pair of eyes can't hurt, eh?

'Course, is there another RTT stomping DE player in your neck-of-the-woods? Even if there isn't, he could be Wilson to your House (the Fox TV show) and help you solve the puzzle. Or has Hulksmash been there for several of these?

Again, this is all with the IG player knowing that you're experimenting and re-setting with the purpose of finding what it takes for your DE to win.

He'll have to be a nice guy ... or someone you bought with beer. Have the guy meet Captain Morgan afterwards.

That took a while to read through.

While I have not studied the DE codex enough to offer a tactical solution, going back to your original question of what to do when your army has a hard counter, I do have something to say.

If your army has a hard counter that there is conceivably no way to win against I would not forsake the army completely. Simply off of principle I think that is a bad idea. Quitting an army just because it can't beat its counter is something I actually did once, and all it left me thinking was, "what if I could be the guy to come up with a way to win?" I was not that guy, but its a fun challenge, and if looked at correctly can make playing an army that is your counter more fun that frustrating.

Anyway, what if you stepped away from the issue at hand for a while?Maybe you should take a break from your DE and play a different army for a time. I have found that taking a break from a codex can offer a good perspective and allow me to come up with new ideas later. As with many things, it is sometimes better to take a while to cool down and then come back with a different mindset to a given problem.

Perhaps you will be upset at me for suggesting something you have already tried, or for implying that you have not thought of literally ever possible option for your DE, but you asked a question, and this is my answer.

Being a Necron Player, this is a question I too have struggled with, and in fact, against the same opponent.

I hope this helps.

This idea may be stupid, but having read through the whole thread I didn't see it suggested. The best long ranged AT that DE seems to have is Ramming. I would try for Raider spam with Shock Prows and Aethersails all around and go for ramming the AV 12 wall. I would keep the Raiders cheap as possible, with just those two upgrades really and at those points, you wouldn't be spending much than what the Chimeras are costing the IG player. To go with this strategy, if you get first turn, deploy the Raiders empty and go for the ram. If you get second turn, it would really depend on the board and what terrain/cover is available, but I would try to reserve what you could and still go for the ram with empty Raiders. To mitigate the lack of usable transports if one were to try for this tactic, I would suggest going the WWP route, again working well with keeping the troops that no longer have transports in reserve.

Seriously, that's the coolest idea ever. Ram your whole fleet into their tanks!

This idea may be stupid, but having read through the whole thread I didn't see it suggested. The best long ranged AT that DE seems to have is Ramming. I would try for Raider spam with Shock Prows and Aethersails all around and go for ramming the AV 12 wall. I would keep the Raiders cheap as possible, with just those two upgrades really and at those points, you wouldn't be spending much than what the Chimeras are costing the IG player. To go with this strategy, if you get first turn, deploy the Raiders empty and go for the ram. If you get second turn, it would really depend on the board and what terrain/cover is available, but I would try to reserve what you could and still go for the ram with empty Raiders. To mitigate the lack of usable transports if one were to try for this tactic, I would suggest going the WWP route, again working well with keeping the troops that no longer have transports in reserve.

well, you will most likely suffer an autopen per raider, and it goes down on a 3+, so statistically 66% of your raiders will be destroyed in YOUR turn before the IG player does something to you.
In return, you must go 30" to inflict a S10 hit on the chimera and even this wont pen for sure and 33% of the pens will destroy the target.

This will result in losing 66% of your vehicles and destroying less than 33% of the enemy's. And Mechanized IG infantry is far superior to regular DE dismounted infantry.

So after having your fleet destroyed in 1 game turn (assuming it is possible for an IG to kill 33% of your fleet in one turn), the IG player can easily chew through the remnants on foot. And you will lose your main advantage: speed.

Brothererekose wrote:

'Course, is there another RTT stomping DE player in your neck-of-the-woods? Even if there isn't, he could be Wilson to your House (the Fox TV show) and help you solve the puzzle. Or has Hulksmash been there for several of these?

Hulkmash is definitely my Wilson. Except that I'm not mean to him. =D

-Nazdreg- wrote:

This idea may be stupid, but having read through the whole thread I didn't see it suggested. The best long ranged AT that DE seems to have is Ramming. I would try for Raider spam with Shock Prows and Aethersails all around and go for ramming the AV 12 wall. I would keep the Raiders cheap as possible, with just those two upgrades really and at those points, you wouldn't be spending much than what the Chimeras are costing the IG player. To go with this strategy, if you get first turn, deploy the Raiders empty and go for the ram. If you get second turn, it would really depend on the board and what terrain/cover is available, but I would try to reserve what you could and still go for the ram with empty Raiders. To mitigate the lack of usable transports if one were to try for this tactic, I would suggest going the WWP route, again working well with keeping the troops that no longer have transports in reserve.

well, you will most likely suffer an autopen per raider, and it goes down on a 3+, so statistically 66% of your raiders will be destroyed in YOUR turn before the IG player does something to you.
In return, you must go 30" to inflict a S10 hit on the chimera and even this wont pen for sure and 33% of the pens will destroy the target.

This will result in losing 66% of your vehicles and destroying less than 33% of the enemy's. And Mechanized IG infantry is far superior to regular DE dismounted infantry.

So after having your fleet destroyed in 1 game turn (assuming it is possible for an IG to kill 33% of your fleet in one turn), the IG player can easily chew through the remnants on foot. And you will lose your main advantage: speed.

With shockprows, your front armor goes up by d3 when ramming, so it would require an average of 24" to get an S10 hit (sadly, it doesn't change your type to tank for the purpose of ramming, despite allowing you to ram and tank shock). Assuming you can angle properly, you can also hit a targets' side armor instead of the front, meaning an autopen on a chimera or any chimera chassis other than a deathstrike, which you'll never see, and in the worst case scenario an autoglance on the raider. Of course, it's still an extremely risky plan, but even if you ultimately lose, you've still done something insanely awesome, and in the end, isn't that what really counts?

Also, I contest the notion that dismounted IG infantry are better than dismounted deldar. Now, I love IG, but the worst infantry DE have, warriors, are essentially guardsmen with poisoned AP5 weapons, and wyches will eat guardsmen alive if they're in close. Hellions are more maneuverable, and have 18" assault 2 weapons, and I understand beastmasters are extremely durable, though I haven't used them myself. The IG will be either basic infantry squads, or veterans, neither of which is all that awe inspiring except in bulk. (Well, I've have veterans down a chapter master with their lasguns before, but that was just an awesome stroke of luck...)

Honestly, I think the best counter would be more raiders, and taking nightshields and flickerfields on everything. Take Vect and Malys, and always deploy second, clustered in the back edge to one side where only las and autocannons can reach you (and if you're facing chimeraspam, how many of those will you see? Not enough to hurt you, especially not if you deploy in the right place so they're more than 42" away from anything). You have a 50% chance of stealing the initiative thanks to Vect, and if you do you can redeploy d3 units up to the front of your deployment area thanks to Malys (or place d3 in a safer position (including in reserve) if you fail to steal). When your turn comes (whether it's first or second), you can move forward, and focus all your lances on one flank, preferably the most dangerous targets available there. If you went first, and your opponent had deployed up to the line, you should be able to get a wych haywire grenade charge off, thanks to Malys. If you're lucky, you'll wipe out most of what can threaten your units, forcing your opponent to either retreat or advance into your guns. Pick off the next closest targets, and by this time your opponent's army should be in tatters and unable to recover.

Turning raiders into flying missiles is nice but be sure they are empty or you will lose squads the turn you boost and destroy both the raider and the chimera.

Do the Dark Eldar have some sort of rule that allows them to Emergency Disembark after moving flat out and getting a Destroyed result on a Ramming attempt?

Or is the plan here to dismount 2", move 6", fleet d6 inches and try to end up screened by a massive wall of wreckage that used to be a parking lot before Raiders and Chimeras started exploding?

Because unless I'm missing something Raiders w/ Embarked Passengers almost never want to ram.

- Marty Lund

The solution to "Hey my min/max army full of flimsy vehicles can't deal with mech IG" is not to suggest that he try to do stupid things with said flimsy vehicles, or take a slightly different mix of min/max squads riding around in them.

mlund wrote:Do the Dark Eldar have some sort of rule that allows them to Emergency Disembark after moving flat out and getting a Destroyed result on a Ramming attempt?

Or is the plan here to dismount 2", move 6", fleet d6 inches and try to end up screened by a massive wall of wreckage that used to be a parking lot before Raiders and Chimeras started exploding?

Because unless I'm missing something Raiders w/ Embarked Passengers almost never want to ram.

- Marty Lund

They do not. Exploding raiders is bad. At least it's open topped so only S3 but still hurts warriors and REALLY hurts wyches.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Also, I contest the notion that dismounted IG infantry are better than dismounted deldar.

He said mech IG, so i'm assuming he meant when the raiders die and the chimeras do not, he then has guardsmen in a chimera, which will best DE Warriors. Both dismounted, yeah, DE warriors are better.

I haven't played IG yet with my DE, but yeah, they're a hard counter to deal with.

With ramming, I think the point is to keep the squads in reserve, deploying the empty transports (assuming you can do that, since the restriction on dedicated transports is that they're deployed either with the squad that bought them, or empty) and one raider with a webway archon and retinue screened by a wall of raiders. The disposable raiders ram whatever they have the best chance of hurting, the archon deploys the webway gate as close to the enemy line as possible, then waits to die next turn if you didn't manage to cut down on the amount of fire in his general area (say, because you wanted to leave the tanks closest to the portal within reach of some wyches or a beast squad, while destroying those that were out of reach). If you're lucky, you've leveled the playing field, and cracked enough of his armor for the ravagers to mop up the rest of it.

Would flickerfields grant the invuln save for the hit suffered when ramming? If so, that means a third of the raiders would escape completely unscathed after autopenning their target.

Now, I don't think it's the best tactic strategically (even if it is somewhat in your favor), but it would definitely rattle your opponent, at least the first time you try it against them, and what it lacks in reliability it makes up for in sheer, unadulterated insanity.

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

DASH OF PEPPER THROWDOWN TIME.

Now he's gonna challenge you to a game, win while stupidly drunk and then post a battle report on dakka. I cant wait.

LOL. I live in Cali no idea were Dash is. And I have a kid and dont get to travel to far to play in tournies anymore =( I hit the local ones though. In October there is one called the Grand Waaagh, its on the USS Hornet aircraft carrier. So I might see him there, if I get my new orks done in time, painting a whole new ork army cause I was sick of my old color scheme.

I avoid ard'boys style tournies. They are not that fun for me. I enjoy the entire hobby, so I hit tournies that judge paint, comp, sport and battle points.

But I will be more than happy to throw down some version of my ork army to play a game against any one.

I've said my piece in this thread. Gave advice, so I will keep up but probably not post anymore.

So you've never heard of Vassal which allows 40k to be played online, not surprising but it also leaves you with no excuse not to play him a game. Now that you know that you can play him what do you say to a game?

We also see that you like soft tournies so you can hurt the score of anybody with a list you don't like by marking down sportsmanship and nitpick painting skills. Lets face it, comp score is a joke and is based on what people think is broken which is why with old Nids Nidzilla was always marked down even though any other list was suicide, I bet Necrons have a really tough time as well, as do certain varieties of Tau.

Epeen measuring and flaming. You should feel very bad.

Also, vassal isn't 40k so it wouldn't prove anything anyway.

This thread never really stood a chance. :(

Norade wrote:Some Stuff

This thread had nicely gotten back on track and you had to go sling mud again.

Any further violations of the Dakka rules will be rewarded with a brief suspension.

Monster Rain wrote:Epeen measuring and flaming. You should feel very bad.

Also, vassal isn't 40k so it wouldn't prove anything anyway.

Vassal is as close to 40k as you can get without playing in person, and making it anymore close to 40k would invite a lawsuit.

Also, coming from you Monster any insults flung really don't sting. You've been making little jabs all through the thread, but being a DCM has always conferred advantages not enjoyed by other members as has been pointed out by GWAR! repeatedly.

This thread had nicely gotten back on track and you had to go sling mud again.

Any further violations of the Dakka rules will be rewarded with a brief suspension.

How often do I post here anymore anyway?

Often enough to break the rules, apparently.

Lorek wrote:Often enough to break the rules, apparently.

Often enough to point out that this forum blatantly favors those who carry the DCM tag, and has mods willing to drive off a prime contributor in GWAR! simply because Insaniak wants his poorly written FAQ to be taken seriously.

Norade wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Epeen measuring and flaming. You should feel very bad.

Also, vassal isn't 40k so it wouldn't prove anything anyway.

Vassal is as close to 40k as you can get without playing in person, and making it anymore close to 40k would invite a lawsuit.

The IP issue was already sufficient that they had to officially discontinue supporting it. Now that it's underground there are no barriers to someone making it more like 40k, other than pure difficulty. It really doesn't similate the game play experience that well, though is better than nothing if you're really bored, and provides handy tools for making battle reports. But don't let those facts get in your way.

Norade wrote:You've been making little jabs all through the thread, but being a DCM has always conferred advantages not enjoyed by other members as has been pointed out by GWAR! repeatedly.

MR has made succinct points, but not insulted Dash. Dash is a big boy and can reply to arguments himself. As for special treatment, tell that to Gwar, who was a DCM himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DMC = Special Rules wrote:

Lorek wrote:Often enough to break the rules, apparently.

Often enough to point out that this forum blatantly favors those who carry the DCM tag...

As I already pointed out, Gwar was a DCM, and has been banned. If a given post seems inappropriate to you, please hit the Alert Moderator button, and one of the moderators, an unpaid lover of the hobby from one of six different US states, Australia, or the UK, most of whom have never met each other, will review it conscientiously.

DMC = Special Rules wrote:...and has mods willing to drive off a prime contributor in GWAR! simply because Insaniak wants his poorly written FAQ to be taken seriously.

A) Insaniak didn't have anything to do with writing the INAT FAQ, and in fact usually points out that it's not official.
B) ...Oh wait, I seem to have already demonstrated that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:With ramming, I think the point is to keep the squads in reserve, deploying the empty transports (assuming you can do that, since the restriction on dedicated transports is that they're deployed either with the squad that bought them, or empty) and one raider with a webway archon and retinue screened by a wall of raiders. The disposable raiders ram whatever they have the best chance of hurting, the archon deploys the webway gate as close to the enemy line as possible, then waits to die next turn if you didn't manage to cut down on the amount of fire in his general area (say, because you wanted to leave the tanks closest to the portal within reach of some wyches or a beast squad, while destroying those that were out of reach). If you're lucky, you've leveled the playing field, and cracked enough of his armor for the ravagers to mop up the rest of it.

Would flickerfields grant the invuln save for the hit suffered when ramming? If so, that means a third of the raiders would escape completely unscathed after autopenning their target.

Now, I don't think it's the best tactic strategically (even if it is somewhat in your favor), but it would definitely rattle your opponent, at least the first time you try it against them, and what it lacks in reliability it makes up for in sheer, unadulterated insanity.

Yes. ^This is much better way of saying what I had meant in my post. Thank you for explaining it in better words than I.

DMC = Special Rules wrote:

Lorek wrote:Often enough to break the rules, apparently.

Often enough to point out that this forum blatantly favors those who carry the DCM tag

I've been warned in the last month about a post that even I admit was pointless spam(though I was cackling as I wrote it).

So, I guess that would make you... incorrect. I contribute to Dakka because I think it's a great site, not so that I can get special treatment from the Moderators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Norade wrote:Also, coming from you Monster any insults flung really don't sting. You've been making little jabs all through the thread, but being a DCM has always conferred advantages not enjoyed by other members as has been pointed out by GWAR! repeatedly.

I didn't insult you, I pointed out that you weren't contributing to the thread and were breaking forum rules. I actually haven't insulted anyone in this thread.

Also, if you're comparing my posting style to Gwar!'s I'm just going to let that stand as a testament to your understanding of the subject matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:

Norade wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Epeen measuring and flaming. You should feel very bad.

Also, vassal isn't 40k so it wouldn't prove anything anyway.

Vassal is as close to 40k as you can get without playing in person, and making it anymore close to 40k would invite a lawsuit.

The IP issue was already sufficient that they had to officially discontinue supporting it. Now that it's underground there are no barriers to someone making it more like 40k, other than pure difficulty. It really doesn't similate the game play experience that well, though is better than nothing if you're really bored, and provides handy tools for making battle reports. But don't let those facts get in your way.

I prefer Dawn of War for my "Computer-based 40k Simulation".

On Topic

I like the idea of the ramming raiders.

I seriously doubt that anyone would see that coming. The question of flickerfield affecting the self-inflicted hits may be a question for YMDC but if that is a solid tactic I may be starting a Dark Eldar army for this specific purpose!

Most awesome answer to mech ever. The army of skimming missiles is coming for you!!!!!! Maybe i could model it up like humans/slaves stole them and not knowing how to drive crashed those devilish DE's rides! And the DE are just hanging out to recover their rides

Monster Rain wrote:
On Topic

I like the idea of the ramming raiders.

I seriously doubt that anyone would see that coming. The question of flickerfield affecting the self-inflicted hits may be a question for YMDC but if that is a solid tactic I may be starting a Dark Eldar army for this specific purpose!

Almost any result of the ram is good for the DE player. Best case Raiders Explodes! the Chimeras and lives. If the Raiders wreck or Explode! themselves, then you have created cover for the guys that will be coming in through the WWP. Either the Chimeras will have to move to not shoot through the cover that was the Raiders, thus less shooting, or stay put and more than likely grant a cover save for shooting though the wreckage/crater that was the Raider. And if the Raider lives, the IG player will either have to shoot it, meaning less shooting at the now footslogging DE, or he ignores them and they live to ram another day! I cannot see a "bad" outcome for the DE player for doing this other than losing the ability of the Raiders themselves, but if that's what it takes to take out the IG parking lot spam, then so be it. I would seriously like to see someone actually try this and report on its effectiveness. And sometimes it is the crazy, unexpected tactic that looks completely stupid that actually turns out to work wonders.

The only problem is that I thought that if you move a transport flat out and are wrecked on the same turn the passengers are killed.

Is this not the case? That's the only downside I could see, otherwise it's pretty brilliant really.