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FNP works on heavy flamers, though.

And every heavy flamer they have is one less heavy bolter to put more hits on your Raiders.

BishopX wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

And if you think it is wise to shoot a "wall of templates" at Hellions with a 3+ cover save instead of my vehicles, I would be very happy with this.

Hiding in Chimera wrecks can be a very bad idea, because every surviving Chimera should have a heavy flamer that can ignore the 3+.

Easy to say, hard to do.

Mech IG have a parking lot issue and they have trouble getting to where they need to flame. So lets say they do move a Chimera or two for a BBQ, how many will hit? I hope when you consolidate you have left enough spacing so that you do not get too many models hit. Then you take the first wound on the Baron with his 2+ SF save, and you might lose some with or without FNP.

Of course to move to flame the Hellions, you are exposing your weak side armor to Dark Lance or Blaster fire, so that is an easy kill on chimeras, thank you very much.

I'd be less worried about the heavy Flamers and more worried about vets with plasma or even melta(since we're talking small squads of DE) guns and "fire on my mark."

I did not realise the potential of beastmaster units. I dismissed them at first glance.. Only going back to re-read them when I saw you included the baron without any hellions. Do you ever field the baron on his own? Or have I missed the point.

In regards to the OP; What options do you have.

Dark Lance to venom ratio is +70pts. You gain 5 troop models, loose ~7Strx shots (now all at short range) but you gain 2 dark lances. Is that worthwhile, I'm sure you've considered it so why haven't you taken it as your problem is found in the parking lot. I mean to say, what is your reasoning.

What else.. Haywire grenades. SMF kamakzi's.. Could that ever be viable?

Your trueborn, two potential alternative options;
1) 3man squads + two dark lances. 1/2 the price, Engage turn 1. MSU. (The pro's here, none of the con's mentioned!)
2) Scourges; Min squads + 1 special weapon. Uses a different FOC slot. Ability to deep-strike. Low cost. Reavers too but you've dismissed those. Same could be said for scourges.

All I've got. HtH's

We're not really talking about small squads of DE, are we? We're talking about large squads as assault elements, with enhanced cover saves and lots of wounds. In my suggested Beasts unit, the Khymera can take plasma and melta hits, with their single W and 4+ invulnerable. The flocks can take hits from anything S5 or lower, with their 5W.

Therion wrote:
I haven't heard of any accomplishments by you that qualify you to act and speak like you do. About your outrageous claims though, we know that it isn't your job to write messages here on Dakka, but when you do make posts that make you look like Stelek v2.01, I'll ask you to back up your statements. If you don't back them up all you really are is a whiny DE player who is unable to make an against all comers list and as a knee jerk reaction calls the whole 40K game rock paper scissors. Since you're unable to do what I asked, everything you say here falls to the category of background noise. I do appreciate you admitting that you don't understand the distinction between a hard counter and a soft counter though.

See Blackmoor's writings above for an example of a brilliant post. He could've said: "You suck and the game sucks because it's just rock paper scissors and I don't need to explain myself because I've played in tournaments and in truth I couldn't explain myself even if I wanted because I don't really have an argument" but he wouldn't be him then, he'd be you.

Trust me Therion, he has the accomplishments to back up what he said. I don't always agree with him and find him...abrasive and he comes across as mini-Stelek at times but he knows his stuff.

On topic;

He's built an army that he can confidently table 95% of armies out there, and has an uphill battle against the last 5%. Even after tricking his army out with everything he can think of for that 5% he's not much closer to becoming confident of victory over them then when he started. He has the following options;

1. Get more experience with the match up with your army; 90% sure this is not going to help much. Dash has played against Mech IG a number of times with his DE and Orks and is intimately familiar with their list. As for 'not having enough experience with the new DE book'. How much do you need? 5 games? 50? 500? A good player can pick apart a codex in a couple of hours and have a feel for his army in 5-10 games. More experience doesn't hurt but after a half dozen games or so you aren't really learning anything new.

2. Tweak your list with 1-2 different units. This is where he should and likely is doing his work. The issue is that he cannot see what/where he needs the changes, hence this thread. I have a couple suggestions personally but I'll post them further down.

3. Scrap your list and start from the ground up; You run the risk of screwing your army up against the 95% you do well against for the CHANCE you will be better off against that 5% you aren't. Who's to say you won't just have a different army in that 5% bracket? Granted, as long as SW, BA and Mech IG aren't in that 'no comfort zone' you are doing REALLY well. Also, there are only so many potential builds that aren't laughably bad to choose from in the first place.

4. Quit and play a 'stronger' army; Just please don't pick wolves? Please? Obviously a sign of giving up and reeks of power gaming, but there are some armies out there that just cannot compete.

@Dash; Kinda disappointed to see such a blatant cookie-cutter list out of you, I figured something a little more creative from you. As for suggestions;

I'd suggest switching 2-3 of the warrior squads into raiders instead of the venoms. This way they either target your trueborn's venoms in a bid to silence the blaster spam there, hopefully giving the raiders/warriors a freer reign or they target the raiders, stranding 1 blaster warrior squad and letting your trueborn go to work. As it is, I cannot imagine any good opponent not turning all his guns on the trueborn raiders first thing, stranding 2/3 of your anti-tank really early.

The beastmaster squad does....what exactly? If you are looking for a 'hammer' HtH squad, I'm not sure how well they work, be interested to hear your experiences here. Although I will admit it will tank damage far better then their points would suggest with the 4+ invuls on the Khymeras(sp?) and multi-wound bases of the razor flocks for small arms. I'd be interested in what else you can get for these points that will help against Mech IG. Baron/Helions is an idea I suppose. Personally I'd be looking for another HtH unit with some anti-tank capability....not really sure what that is for DE though? Grotesques + Haemmy? 2 Pain tokens makes them S6 on the charge right? Toss em in a raider and you have your tanky hth unit capable of over turning chimeras fairly well on the charge. This at least gives your Haemmy a legit use and might pull some of the anti-tank fire from your other vehicles.

Carnage43 wrote:

Therion wrote:
I haven't heard of any accomplishments by you that qualify you to act and speak like you do. About your outrageous claims though, we know that it isn't your job to write messages here on Dakka, but when you do make posts that make you look like Stelek v2.01, I'll ask you to back up your statements. If you don't back them up all you really are is a whiny DE player who is unable to make an against all comers list and as a knee jerk reaction calls the whole 40K game rock paper scissors. Since you're unable to do what I asked, everything you say here falls to the category of background noise. I do appreciate you admitting that you don't understand the distinction between a hard counter and a soft counter though.

See Blackmoor's writings above for an example of a brilliant post. He could've said: "You suck and the game sucks because it's just rock paper scissors and I don't need to explain myself because I've played in tournaments and in truth I couldn't explain myself even if I wanted because I don't really have an argument" but he wouldn't be him then, he'd be you.

Trust me Therion, he has the accomplishments to back up what he said. I don't always agree with him and find him...abrasive and he comes across as mini-Stelek at times but he knows his stuff.

Carnage, can we cut out the e-peen measuring? How about this- I confirm that I am well aware of Dash's accomplishments, and I also attest to the fact that Therion's been similarly successful, only over a significantly longer period of time, including 3rd ed, 4th, and 5th ed 40k.

Dash has made some waves in US tournaments over the last year, and posted some good battle reports, but he's stll a newbie compared to some of the veteran killers out there on the tournament scene. Therion is someone I happen to know understands the game deeply and who has been very successful with more armies than Dash, over a longer period of time and more editions of the game.

That said, let's focus on the actual discussion, guys. Bragging rights are beside the point, and a person's arguments and tactics should be able to stand on their own merits.

Carnage43 wrote:On topic;

The rest of your post was very solid, thanks!

Carnage43 wrote:
1. Get more experience with the match up with your army; 90% sure this is not going to help much. Dash has played against Mech IG a number of times with his DE and Orks and is intimately familiar with their list. As for 'not having enough experience with the new DE book'. How much do you need? 5 games? 50? 500? A good player can pick apart a codex in a couple of hours and have a feel for his army in 5-10 games. More experience doesn't hurt but after a half dozen games or so you aren't really learning anything new.

I would say that it takes at least a dozen games to have a solid understanding of your army. The problem is that this varies a lot based on individual unit composition. I can change 3 units in my 2,000 point army and get an army that feels and plays completely differently, requiring me to relearn a lot of techniques. This is just within one Codex and one build type. To say that anyone has "enough experience" with the new DE book to understand all the options is a joke. Enough experience to win most games? Sure. But to know exactly what's good and what's bad and fully understand all the options available? No chance in hell.

Mannahnin wrote:We're not really talking about small squads of DE, are we?.

I thought we were still talking about the 5 man squads in the OP.

If not, my bad.

No worries. No, we were talking about big, reasonably durable assaulty units trying to swamp the tanks and kill some of them in HTH. In addition to the small units standing off and doing it with shooting.

I haven't had the opportunity to play against IG mech with DE. (A lot of SW, Vulkans but only one IG regular in the area.) What about the flyers from reserve? Either standard or double implosion missiles against the IG box of metal seems good. Standard is S6 with AP. Implosion is S7 with AP -. Seems like with 4 blast templates you should scatter onto something and two rolls for implosion affects should be good for a glance. Add in two void lance or dark lance shots and you should have a good shot at another glance or pen. Biggest on foot loss is the 1 SW, 1 Hvy per fraction of 10 to 1 SW total plus 2 HW per 10.
The cost increase is huge when you factor in needing to also buy 10 warriors to get the 2nd DL. Agreed haywires are okay but loss of 2 blasters means wyches can't shoot the transport and assault. Assault, blow the transport, get shot at just isn't effective.

Dashofpepper wrote:rjderouin: I'm pretty confident that I can table pretty much anyone out there except for Mech IG.

If this statement is indeed true, then the answer to your question is certainly to not change a thing. Your list is exactly what you want. Please note a major assumption of my point is that you are looking to win 5 game tournaments as your primary goal (3 game tournaments have far too much variability). Here's why you shouldn't change your list:


If you are truly tabling most of your non-IG opponents, you are putting yourself in a position to pretty much win every tournament where you don't play mech-IG. Those odds are outstanding and I don't think I know of any other player that can be in such a favorable position.

Yet, as we all know Mech IG is a frequent army at big GTs. However, assuming that you have the skill to table as much as you say you do (and you are quite quick to tout your own skill over and over) you should likely be able to beat a round 1/2 and maybe even 3 Mech IG scrub. Granted, there's always a chance of fighting a strong player in an early round, but I would venture to say that given the solid strength of BA/SW, the number of strong IG players at a given tournament is manageable.

Sure, you are gambling on not playing a *GOOD* Mech-IG player, but you're also not in a 100% chance loss position. You have a decent chance at a solid game (given the skill you claim) if you go first and don't get seized. This is more than 50% of the games, because you take Baron and get +1 to go first. Also, if you're tabling your other opponents (which again you claim) you also likely have a strong battle point position that a draw might still allow you to win the GT. I'm also confident that as you play the DE/IG matchup more where you go second, your win chances will improve. As you play the IG/DE match-up more, I think you'll also improve your chances. So it may be more 70/30 or 60/40 that you lose.

The point I'm trying to make here is that *if your claims are true* (and you love to post about your tournament prowess), you should not change your army at all. You will maximize your chances of actually winning a large 5 game GT, since your non-Mech-IG matchups are skewed so far in your favor that it far outweighs the difficulty in your mech-IG matchup against good players. I am skeptical that any solution you find to mech-IG will increase your win/loss chances significantly enough without dropping you from a 100% tabling against other opponents.

If you can't crush your non-mech-IG opponents with such regularity, then my case here is moot. However, then you shouldn't make such grandiose claims, constantly referencing your tournament success.


For those that have skipped all the text, the simple answer to "What to do when your army has a hard counter" is: Nothing, if your army already has exceptional strength against every other list.

Leenus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:rjderouin: I'm pretty confident that I can table pretty much anyone out there except for Mech IG.

For those that have skipped all the text, the simple answer to "What to do when your army has a hard counter" is: Nothing, if your army already has exceptional strength against every other list.

Good post that actually answers the original question!

I also wanted to reply to Dash's actual list, but did not want this post to muddy my answer to the OP's question.

I think the general concept of your list is wrong for combating Mech-IG. You are essentially duking it out at range against better armor, better firepower and cheaper units. Sure you can win a few of those games for a number of reasons, but I'd say that you need to play "a perfect game" to reliably outshoot mech-IG with your list setup, while they only need to play "an average game." You are playing a list similar in style to your old DE, but you don't have any of the old tricks to make it work.

If we assume that the AV10 shootout doesn't work we have to offer another solution. I am not sure the WWB portal offers that solution, as you have to rely on reserves, with no ability to modify reserves, and the IG player may hit you with a -1. I think that list can get a few wins, but not offer a reliable enough solution.


My suggestions would need sufficient playtesting to fine tune, but I feel like the general idea has potential to work. I have not pointed out an exact list, but it is more of the concept I want to highlight:

Baron (for the +1 to go first so you can make it more likely you're not taking a lot of fire before you get to move)
Duke

Trueborn blaster squads in raiders which reserve and deepstrike / dismount and unload with blasters thanks to the Duke

Troops (I think the troop slot is open. I would lean towards hellions since you are getting 2 dice on the combat drugs and you can reserve them if you have to and still get to objectives. Maybe dark lance warriors. While not efficient, they get free shots if the enemy is dealing with the BM's and they can camp objectives)

3x beastmaster squads with khymera and razorwings

3x ravagers with nightshields (held in reserve).


The theory of this list is that your beast squads with wound allocation tricks + cover, should be able to weather a fair bit of IG shooting and put a lot of pressure on them. You want the IG player to have to move to avoid auto hits on his tanks and reduce firepower. You MIGHT swap baron for humunculi, but that depends on how much fire a BM squad can actually weather in practice and not have to take a moral check. They may just need FNP to survive flamers and the like. The exact mix of the BM squad has to be refined, as it might make sense to take a clawfiend simply to put single multilaser / lascannon hits on it, to help reduce the probability of a moral check.

As you push up with your BM squads, on turn 2 you should get some deem striking / reserving AT assets. You don't need them all, just a few to pop some juicy transports. The idea here is pop a transport, and have the BM multi charge the squad and other tanks which shouldn't be too difficult given the charge range and number of guys in the unit. Your BM units are safe, hopefully stunned / killed a few tanks and force the IG player to move so he doesn't get auto hit, hopefully reducing the firepower significantly enough to keep your deep striking squads alive. The BM's aren't there to be your only tank busting squad, but something to help split firepower / focus away from your AT squads. Your AT units are also entering the board after the game has developed, meaning those ravagers should be able to enter where they won't take an entire army's shooting. Obviously they can't always avoid 72 inch autocannons, but every little bit helps.


This list avoids an AV10 shootout and helps mitigate the risk of going second, as you don't lose all of your AT raiders on the first turn. It also doesn't put all of your eggs in the reserve basket, as the BM are a meaningful threat. I think the list needs testing, but in theory, it tries to counterbalance why the AV10 list is getting rocked. I'd also argue it only works at higher point levels, as you need to be able to fit in big enough BM squads with the proper amount of tank hunting trueborn.

Would love to debate the specifics on why or why not it wouldn't work. I think it's something you should at least try, because, as we all know, things don't always work out the same on the table.

Blackmoor wrote:So how to improve the list? I have 2 things for you: Dark Lances and Nightshields.

Although Flickerfields save you on a 5+, the best save is the one that you never have to take. Nightshield are the way of the future

This. To add to your excellent breakdown consider (and feel free anyone to poke holes in this, just an idea I've been kicking around): Assuming pitched battle deployment, with nightsheilds you have the option of deploying raiders along your board edge in a half herring-bone pattern (e.g. /////////). Overlap for 4+ cover save and the un-overlapped raider obscured by terrain or a suitable unit (Baron and his hellions in cover would be most ideal). Now the 36" and less ranged weapons are not popping your transports turn 1 without a scout move and that limits your opponent to his vendettas and heavy support -- which are then faced with 4+ covered raiders. So that leaves Vendettas popping transports on a coin toss and hydras each popping them about 36% of the time. The elephant in the room is barraged manticores, which will devestate this setup if it lacks flicker fields. Even still, that is a hellava lot better odds then just trying to bum rush with blaster spam.

The key to the above also is not relying so much on blasters for anti-tank. Seems to me you give up a big advantage in mobility by being forced into operating that close so early. I think avoiding darklances outside of just ravagers is a mistake and a reason I wouldn't be ditching raiders completely for venoms.

If it's not been mentioned yet before (forgive me, I haven't read the entire thread), you could use heat lances in DSing raiders. My friend keeps mentioning something like 6 trueborn with 4 heatlances inside a raider. I'm guessing that adding flickerfields and nightshields would help. Then add Silsicus (I think) for the DSing of the raiders. Tada, now youve surrounded him and you can blow his rubbish up.

This is more wild guessing here mind you, so take plenty of salt

Trueborn can't take heat lances, though I agree that heat lances would be helpful in Dash's list.

That's an interesting list and while I haven't had a lot of time to get games in with the new DE I have a lot of experience against SW and from what I'm seeing your list really just seems geared to remove infantry turn 1 and then work on tanks turn 2 which is producing your problems with IG. If you had gone the complete opposite I wouldn't be surprised if this post wasn't about SW being the hard counter. I also thing the other list critiques are falling short on what some of the fundamental problems you're encountering.

I understand you're looking for a mop-up and at least somewhat dedicated CC unit which you've rightly found in the beastmaster selection in your army but you seem to have quite a few wasted points. If you're set on the venoms (and I can understand why) have you considered dropping the extra splinter cannons from all of them? You have 90 points tied up right there. Also, you really don't need the flickerfields on the ravagers. I think once more people learn that simple screening from majority fire and how to open a lane to your designated target(or targets) for the ravager you'll see that you've got another 30 wasted points. While the shattershard is cute against things like Twolves and special characters you catch out of position, with only one available you're relying on your opponent making a mistake in order to get full benefit from the item and while it may be a significant threat I think it could be dropped and not missed.

You're going for duality and redundancy which are both good especially paired but you're going for the same kinds of duality throughout the whole army and your AT is suffering because of it.

Sticking with the theme of duality and redundancy I think you can fit more turn 1 lance shots to help stunlock and maybe even kill some of those transports. Going second is still a problem but that's everybody's problem against IG, DE will just feel it more acutely and hope their cover saves are up to snuff. . . oh wait that's still everybody lol.

I like what you are thinking with Baron and sticking him with the beast master squad to give them some extra LD and grenades defensive grenades and a 2++ to help shrug off some hits.

After noodling with the list here is what I think you could make your list into while still being pretty close to what you had originally, just with more turn 1 punch without at much "OH MY GAWD DON'T LIGHT ME ON FIRE" because you get to stay in your vehicles without having to willingly disembark.

HQ
Baron

Haemonculus

Elites
Trueborn x3 - 2 Dark Lances, Venom with extra SC

Trueborn x3 - 2 Dark Lances, Venom with extra SC

Trueborn x3 - 2 Dark Lances, Venom with extra SC

Troops
Wracks x5 - Liquifier Gun, Raider Flickerfields

Wracks x5 - Liquifier Gun, Raider Flickerfields

Warriors x10 - Dark Lance, Raider Flickerfields

Warriors x5 - Blaster, Sybarite, Blast Pistol, Venom

Warriors x5 - Blaster, Sybarite, Blast Pistol, Venom

Fast
Beast Masters x4 - Khymerae x5, Razorwing x6

Heavy
Ravager

Ravager

Ravager

Here me out on this if you will. I don't think you need all 9 khymerae and depending on how you model razorwings you should be able to give cover to some of the vehicles behind your beast master groups (if nothing at least from the hellions themselves). I know you play on vassal a lot and I'm not sure if you've been using this fact to your advantage as you would be able to on the tabletop, you can get cover to at least 1 hull (maybe 2) from the skyboard guys alone that way you at least have a 4+ cover along all of your raiders/venoms. Also from the previous iteration you would have had to move closer with your entire army and disembark with the majority of it to fire your blasters to have any effect. With this you'll have to be careful in your setup but with a greater volume of first turn ranged fire you'll take less return. I switched in some raiders for better mobility for side shots without exposing the squad inside to fire, also I included the wracks with liquifer to continue the duality that you've built in your list already.

The 10 warriors don't stay in the raider, the warriors are on foot to be joined by the haemonculus for another 2 ablative wounds before forcing a morale check after he's dropped his pain token with the beastmaster squad. The raider can then be used for blocking, contesting, whatever you can find a use for it, even picking up a unit of wracks should they get disembarked early on.

The impression I got was that most of the warrior squads weren't being utilized first turn most of the time by you anyway so I included the sybarite with blast pistol so that when turn 2 comes they have 2 shots (hopefully into side armor) to do some damage and with ld9 they shouldn't get pinned as easily.

Yes, long fangs will live past the first turn, but if you're up against razor wolves you should be able to put a hurting on their tanks and survive adequately through their return fire and if you're going second against them then you should be able to completely hide at least the trueborn venoms from fire through judicious use of your beast masters, raiders and even your ravagers if you have to.

If you feel the 5 man warrior squads will perform better than the wracks then you can sub them out as its the same points (or if you don't feel like modeling the wracks) but I think while that would be slightly better for your AT, I think it would hinder your objective holding ability which once you get past your IG roadblock will be necessary.

The list I'm suggesting will probably play vastly different but it might help you with your problem as well. Of course it takes practice but giving the list a shot or 3 might be worth a try at least over vassal.

Heat Lances are only avalable on Scourges, Reaver Jetbikes, and Talos Pain Engines.

Although I don't play with DE myself these days, I'm more that happy to alk about my experiences playing against them. Frankly, I've had nothing short of crushing victories with my Mech Eldar, and it wasn't actually until my third game against a DE player that one of them earned a pain token.

Getting my vehicles open is, as always, the thing they struggle with and I'd like to play against a more effective build for dealing with tanks. Void Ravens I take down quickly, but usually deal with the Ravagers first simply because of my Energy Fields wasting the S9 shot anyway.

I can't put out as much AT firepower as an IG army, but I'm not having much trouble over the 9-10 games I've had against the new book.

To try answering a few questions....

1. In terms of beastmaster performance, I've written an extensive review of them in this thread to read. They're suprisingly effective.

2. In terms of why the Baron is in my list without Hellions, see above. I take him for the force multiplier that he is. For 105 points I get +1 to go first, offensive and defensive grenades, and +1 to my cover save. Regardless of what his stats were, I'd take him for that alone. My beasts have 3+ cover, 4+ FNP (the Haemonculi starts with them to pass a pain token over before jumping into a trueborn transport). The Baron is STR6 (or 7) on the charge with rerollable hit and run (and dangerous terrain tests) so I can jump in and out of combat if I need to, and do a bit of anti-tank duty of his own. Granted, having mixed speed models in the same unit can get awkward, but I'm careful about it.

3. Trueborn with Dark Lances: The reason this doesn't appeal to me is this - if I go first, I'd rather have four blasters opening up on a vehicle than two lances. If I don't go first...I can choose to either deploy the trueborn on the table in a vehicle (and probably lose it and half the models inside), or reserve it - either way, when they move onto the table the trueborn aren't going to get to fire - either from toting heavy weapons (lances) or from being out of range (blasters).

4. Heat Lances: The primary source of these are either from a Talos or from Reaver Jetbikes; and I addressed this earlier. The Talos competes against a ravager for heavy support slots and thus gets disqualified from consideration, while Reaver Jetbikes (IMHO) got nerfed from the last codex. Heat Lances + Reaver jetbikes are a suicide unit - for them to fire, they aren't moving flat out, meaning that they're sitting on a 5+ armour save, and are going to fall over from sheer volume of fire. I've experimented with them, and point for point - think that they are a terrible option for anti-tank.

5. Deep striking raiders: Raiders have a significant footprint. The thought of trying to bring down a fleet of vehicles from deep-strike and not enduring a bunch of mishaps is a scary prospect, and I'd expect an intelligent opponent to move up and cover as much surface area as possible. Against Mech IG in particular, I'd expect vendettas to scout ahead and disembark their contents turn one and two across as wide a dispersal area as possible (2" coherency) while chimeras disgorged (or deployed) troops across their backfield while moving up the chimeras and smoking immediately prior to the deep-strike. I use that same tactic against daemon players myself; denying as much board as possible to try forcing them into board edge strikes and potential mishaps - and a raider has a *good* bit of hull area to try putting onto the table. I would definitely not be comfortable using this tactic. Combined with variable reserve rolls, and the likelihood of coming in piecemeal resulting in a minimal alpha strike being answered horrendously.....I wouldn't support trying this tactic.

6. Dueling Raiders with Nightshield / Flickerfield: Something common in every list I run is the theme "The best defense is a good offense." Every ablative wound, every defensive piece of wargear is a potential enemy not getting killed. I belatedly added flickerfields to my Ravagers because they're the primary source of ranged anti-tank in my army and an obvious high priority target. Short of that, my defensive measures are very minimal in favor of more attack capabilities. If I start adding Nightshields, I start losing guns. Using the previously presumed Pitched battle setup, if I deploy on my table edge to Mech IG deploying on his deployment edge, I'm 33" or so away - with Nightshields, they are effectively 39" away. Those chimeras can move up and still fire freely; and any stationary autocannons can do the same - while ordinance has no issues, nor do hydras or vendettas. I don't really see value being added by adding Nightshields.

7. Multiple beastmaster units: While these guys are pretty awesome in my experience, I rarely see an IG player without a PBS. Quite oftentimes paired up with an Inquisitor. The other day I ran into two PBS units and two inquisitors. The PBS can make the beast unit LD2, and the Inquisitor can force a leadership test; both this beasts and other non-mechanized assets are disadvantaged against Mech IG - and the seemingly obligatory Master of the Fleet makes reserves unreliable....which is an issue with many of the strategies posted here; WWP, deep-striking, or otherwise.

8. Asdrubael Vect: Very expensive. Extremely so. While a 4+ to seize instead of a is awesome...it isn't so much for a Dark Eldar army - which is a glass cannon. Deploying in the hopes of seizing, and then not doing so - against a Mech IG army is asking for a turkey shoot. My *ORKS* being able to seize on a 4+....that would be fething awesome; they can weather a storm of fire with a KFF protecting vehicles if they don't go first. My list is set up to be as much of an alpha-strike as possible. If I go first against Mech IG, I'm set to deliver as much firepower as I can possibly fathom with the list I'm using.

The problem is when I don't go first....I can't see any way to really win. I'm going to have to think hard about some of the ideas that have been brought up here so far and see if any of them make me feel more comfortable.

You need disruption units. Ones that are a threat that will open up the rest of your army and give it a little more time. You currently don't have a "priority" weapon soak unit or a deal with me now unit. I'd suggest finding a way to work one in, but that's just me

Hulksmash wrote:You need disruption units. Ones that are a threat that will open up the rest of your army and give it a little more time. You currently don't have a "priority" weapon soak unit or a deal with me now unit. I'd suggest finding a way to work one in, but that's just me

Like what?

Blackmoor wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:True, hellions can assault up to 24", but I don't think most of the time that will result in a first turn assault against guard. Yes enough hits should stun some tanks, in the cases where one doesn't have a turn one assault, a guard player going second could take measures - upto and including reserving his army. I think a unit of 345ish points is a bit much to throw at a wall of templates! Even as a partial plan

I never said anything about a first turn charge. If you are looking to charge, there is always turns 2-5+ to do it.

Guard counter measures? Like what? Wait...did you say that a Guard army reserve their army and so they can come on piecemeal? Yes please!

This is what you do with your Hellions: You start behind cover. Turn #1 you fly up behind more cover. Then your dark lances should have popped a few tanks and there should be some infantry running around and you go after them. After killing them you take your pain tokens and you hide in the wreckage of the dead Chimeras. Then if you want to you can go after their Chimeras, or anything else you choose to.

And if you think it is wise to shoot a "wall of templates" at Hellions with a 3+ cover save instead of my vehicles, I would be very happy with this.

If you'd read the post above your's, you might have noticed I wasn't actually addressing you. "The Strange Dude" and I had been discussing hellions for a couple of posts. You didn't even reach the point of suggesting hellions in your 'Tactics' section!!! True confusion did abound due to the lack of a quote but, reading more carefully could have also prevented this but anyways~!

If you can't think of counter measures to 'help against' having you front row assaulted with str4, I don't know how to help you, bubble wrap, moving, placing priority targets in a differeant position, deploying tight to impassable terrain - these are all valid tactics in the right time and place, yes?
And they'd be Flame templates...? You don't recive cover saves from them and they'd deny a hellions armour save - fnp could possibly be an issue if they'd found a token. But also is it First rank Fire, SRF? Leaving that many 5+ models close to guard is baaaaaaad!
I like your plan you gave just then it's how I would try to use them, but it's still a 2+ turn attempt, and the 'real' issues one's going to face is guard happily popping >2 Av10 open-topped transports a turn - for any range - I just don't see how this mitigates that element of the guard army.

It probably wouldn't be nearly the list your currently running to be honest. I figured you wanted to stay in the same vein. I'll work something up for ya in my insane amount of free time

Dashofpepper wrote:
3. Trueborn with Dark Lances: The reason this doesn't appeal to me is this - if I go first, I'd rather have four blasters opening up on a vehicle than two lances. If I don't go first...I can choose to either deploy the trueborn on the table in a vehicle (and probably lose it and half the models inside), or reserve it - either way, when they move onto the table the trueborn aren't going to get to fire - either from toting heavy weapons (lances) or from being out of range (blasters).

4. Heat Lances: The primary source of these are either from a Talos or from Reaver Jetbikes; and I addressed this earlier. The Talos competes against a ravager for heavy support slots and thus gets disqualified from consideration, while Reaver Jetbikes (IMHO) got nerfed from the last codex. Heat Lances + Reaver jetbikes are a suicide unit - for them to fire, they aren't moving flat out, meaning that they're sitting on a 5+ armour save, and are going to fall over from sheer volume of fire. I've experimented with them, and point for point - think that they are a terrible option for anti-tank.

5. Deep striking raiders: Raiders have a significant footprint. The thought of trying to bring down a fleet of vehicles from deep-strike and not enduring a bunch of mishaps is a scary prospect, and I'd expect an intelligent opponent to move up and cover as much surface area as possible. Against Mech IG in particular, I'd expect vendettas to scout ahead and disembark their contents turn one and two across as wide a dispersal area as possible (2" coherency) while chimeras disgorged (or deployed) troops across their backfield while moving up the chimeras and smoking immediately prior to the deep-strike. I use that same tactic against daemon players myself; denying as much board as possible to try forcing them into board edge strikes and potential mishaps - and a raider has a *good* bit of hull area to try putting onto the table. I would definitely not be comfortable using this tactic. Combined with variable reserve rolls, and the likelihood of coming in piecemeal resulting in a minimal alpha strike being answered horrendously.....I wouldn't support trying this tactic.

6. Dueling Raiders with Nightshield / Flickerfield: Something common in every list I run is the theme "The best defense is a good offense." Every ablative wound, every defensive piece of wargear is a potential enemy not getting killed. I belatedly added flickerfields to my Ravagers because they're the primary source of ranged anti-tank in my army and an obvious high priority target. Short of that, my defensive measures are very minimal in favor of more attack capabilities. If I start adding Nightshields, I start losing guns. Using the previously presumed Pitched battle setup, if I deploy on my table edge to Mech IG deploying on his deployment edge, I'm 33" or so away - with Nightshields, they are effectively 39" away. Those chimeras can move up and still fire freely; and any stationary autocannons can do the same - while ordinance has no issues, nor do hydras or vendettas. I don't really see value being added by adding Nightshields.
.

I just want to address these points:

3. The problem that you've been bringing up about reserving is that the IG who brings the -1 to reserve rolls will beat you anyway, at least with dark lances they'll be able to do something on your turn 1 unless he wipes them completely off the table (doable but would have to dedicate more fire than would probably be optimal to do so). It's an issue of reliability, at least with dark lances they're an overall more reliable unit even though they lose their mobility.

4. You left out scourges, and while they probably aren't best used unless coming out of a WWP or deepstriking they're worth considering especially since you have chosen a list that involves baron, it might be worth looking at what a unit of 10 with 4 lances of some sort (heat/dark) and baron would do for you since you'll then have that nice 3+ cover as well.

5. I'm not going to advocate deepstriking your whole army, but having baron in a raider with a blaster/blast pistol warrior raider and deepstriking that isn't a bad option as you would still have the vast majority of your force on the table and using it more or less like SM players use deepstriking landspeeders which I don't think people will start to poohpooh anytime soon.

6. I think nightshields are a waste aslo because they don't actually protect you from the things you're really afraid of (auto cannons, missile launchers, las cannons, typhoons, etc etc). Flickerfields can give certain blocking vehicles a little more longevity than they would have originally but are largely wasted points, even the ones I included in the list I proposed could probably be discarded for something to help you kill more things but I included them for the sake of more options if you would choose to move up a flank rather than have them screened with your beast masters or something similar.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

I've always been an advocate of a "take all comers" list; bringing something to a game that isn't built to take on any particular army, but that has the ability to take on any army with good generalship and decent dice.

I've been struggling with the new DE codex since it was released - it lacks much of the potency of the old codex, and the thing I keep coming back to over and over is Mechanized IG. In the old codex, I feared Space Wolves and Mech IG - triple long fang packs that could split fire were bad news for my vehicles - and Mech IG just had so much volume of fire with multi-lasers before even getting to the heavy weapons that surviving it all was a challenging prospect.

My solution with the old codex was to run a wych cult. 6 units of wyches with two blasters each and everyone with haywire grenades....along with Lelith and her retinue. Three warrior raiders to back them up with some static anti-tank, and triple ravagers packing disintegrators (STR7 AP2 small blast) to handle hordes, terminators, MEQs, and sometimes even transports.

Statistically, one wych unit should get a 12" charge bonus, I can give them same to Lelith and her unit and voila - an alpha strike that lets me use haywire grenades against static vehicles in the assault on turn 1, backed up by blaster support and disintegrator fire. Presuming I go first, I had a good shot against Mech IG / Space Wolf armies. Going second meant either deploying to try getting cover from terrain, or reserving everything - either way, it was going to be a largely uphill fight.

With such tactics, I dominated the tournament scene this past year, fighting my way to a 36-1 win/loss record with my Dark Eldar.
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Since its release, I've found my new Dark Eldar codex to be extremely troubling. Wyches nerfed - no more wych weapons, no more 12" charge potential, Lelith nerfed beyond belief - meaning my wych cult is gone.

Dark Lances are no longer cheap, viable anti-tank. Disintegrators got nerfed. Hard.

There are bonuses though. There's a fantastic array of special characters, the Venom light transport is well-named, and beasts are now fantastic instead of a kinky point filler.

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1850 DE

Baron Sathonyx
1x Haemonculi with a Shattershard

5x Warriors (1 blaster) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors (1 blaster) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors (1 blaster) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors (1 blaster) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors (1 blaster) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons

4x Trueborn (4 blasters) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
4x Trueborn (4 blasters) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
3x Trueborn (3 blasters) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons

1x Beastmaster Unit of 4 Beastmasters with 4 Razorwing Flocks and 9 Khymera

1x Ravager with 3 Dark Lances and a Flickerfield
1x Ravager with 3 Dark Lances and a Flickerfield
1x Ravager with 3 Dark Lances and a Flickerfield

I am new to this forum but not to wargaming, started back in 1990, my first 40k book was Rogue Trader. I have played a lot of 40K tournies out here in California, probably over 100 from rogue traders to local game store tournies.

When I started reading this post I was intrigued. I dont say much or give input online very often.

What I got from this post was "I lost my I win button, I am having trouble using the same tactice over and over and winning, so I am going to complain about it"
I then read further and saw his list. Min squads, maxed heavy and special weapons. Power Gamer tourny player, easy to spot. Doesnt play for fun, plays to win. Pure and simple. gets flustered when hit I win button breaks.

Best way to figure out how to win with an army, is not to make the strongest cheesiest list possible. Make a weak one. Take the crap units, make a bad list and play. If you can win games with a crap list, build from there. No army is a hard counter, its just isnt true. Its a hard counter if you believe it is, once you tell yourself you have lost, you've lost.

So start from the ground up. Take the new book, make a weaker balanced army play some games with it,and try new tactics. You learn more form a loss than from an easy fast victory.

First thing I think you need to fix is your power gamer mind set. You dont have your I win button anymore. Its a new book, new rules new tactics. Play more. try new lists.

A chimera has what 6 shots? 3 from the multi-lazer3 from the Heavy bolter? Of course small elite armies will gets hosed by that is you raiders are armor 10 and you only have 5 guys. take more guys. Bigger units with Dark lances, more meat for him to chew threw as you shoot and blow up is armor 12 tanks. You've only got what 40 guys ? No wonder you get hosed by gaurd.

I really just think your army is too small - that list can't take alot of casualties. You could bulk out the infantry at the cost of some (or all) of those vehicles and not really lose any power or capturing ability vs. other armies.

Let’s all hate on guard~! Here's a 'bad list'.

HQ
Vect Dias
Heamonculus
Dark gate

Elites
4x Trueborn
w/ 2 DL
Raider
4x Trueborn
w/ 2 DL
Raider

Troops
Wracks x5
w/ Liquifier
Venom
Wracks x5
w/ Liquifier
Venom
8x Wyches
w/ Haywire, 1 Shardnet, Heka, Agoniser
Raider
5x Warriors
w/ Blaster
Raider
5x Warriors
w/ Blaster
Raider

Heavy Support
Tri-Ravager
W/ FF


Pretty sure it's 1850 unless I forgot to carry a one.
I don’t think it has any outstanding merits (if people could find some feel free to point them out), I think it’s been crippled by Vect but we really want first turn , I’m not happy with things like blasters with warriors on a raider, but it has 13 sources of DL shots it has a deathstar unit that will act as a Tar-pit, and it has infantry control and it has a spare raider too! So I feel confident that this list would perform better against a guard army then your previous one. And against other armies as well.

Dash,

I still don't see the point of altering this list if you are "confident you can table any army that is not mech-IG."