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Hey folks!

I've always been an advocate of a "take all comers" list; bringing something to a game that isn't built to take on any particular army, but that has the ability to take on any army with good generalship and decent dice.

I've been struggling with the new DE codex since it was released - it lacks much of the potency of the old codex, and the thing I keep coming back to over and over is Mechanized IG. In the old codex, I feared Space Wolves and Mech IG - triple long fang packs that could split fire were bad news for my vehicles - and Mech IG just had so much volume of fire with multi-lasers before even getting to the heavy weapons that surviving it all was a challenging prospect.

My solution with the old codex was to run a wych cult. 6 units of wyches with two blasters each and everyone with haywire grenades....along with Lelith and her retinue. Three warrior raiders to back them up with some static anti-tank, and triple ravagers packing disintegrators (STR7 AP2 small blast) to handle hordes, terminators, MEQs, and sometimes even transports.

Statistically, one wych unit should get a 12" charge bonus, I can give them same to Lelith and her unit and voila - an alpha strike that lets me use haywire grenades against static vehicles in the assault on turn 1, backed up by blaster support and disintegrator fire. Presuming I go first, I had a good shot against Mech IG / Space Wolf armies. Going second meant either deploying to try getting cover from terrain, or reserving everything - either way, it was going to be a largely uphill fight.

With such tactics, I dominated the tournament scene this past year, fighting my way to a 36-1 win/loss record with my Dark Eldar.
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Since its release, I've found my new Dark Eldar codex to be extremely troubling. Wyches nerfed - no more wych weapons, no more 12" charge potential, Lelith nerfed beyond belief - meaning my wych cult is gone.

Dark Lances are no longer cheap, viable anti-tank. Disintegrators got nerfed. Hard.

There are bonuses though. There's a fantastic array of special characters, the Venom light transport is well-named, and beasts are now fantastic instead of a kinky point filler.

However, NONE of those bonuses help with anti-tank issues. Where in the old codex, Dark Eldar feared Space Wolves and Mech IG, the new codex has *no* fear of Space Wolves, and are now even weaker against Mech IG. To answer all those long fangs, we have volume of fire splinter cannons that can pretty much range the whole board - so going first or second is irrelevant; we can still alpha strike the long fangs from the board or from reserves.

But against Mech IG, there's no ready answer. I'm using triple ravagers with dark lances, with 17 blasters in my army scattered around 9 units - but even with their improved 18" range, there are some fundamental issues against Mech IG.

1. If I go first and my opponent deploys further than the 24" deployment separation, I have to disembark to even possible get a shot - meaning my T3 5+ save infantry are open to return fire.

2. If I don't go first, the only choice is to reserve everything, turbo onto the field trying to get into range, and praying to Baby Gandalf that I live through army wide fire to get to my next turn, when I'll finally be in range to shoot anything.

My problem is that at BEST, in the BEST scenario, with me going first, and good dice rolls, its going to be an uphill fight to take down a Mech IG opponent. There are varying levels below that until we get to "auto-lose."

I played against a Mech IG opponent yesterday in a tournament - I won the roll to go first; we each deployed, and then he stole the initiative....that's an "auto-lose" scenario. With my units on the board getting shot up, I lost half my vehicles in his first turn, and half of the units inside each (with their T3, 5+). Even reserving everything though is relying on incredible luck with the dice to pull off flat-out cover saves until getting into range.....
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So the moral of the story is this: What do you do when your "take all comers" efforts result in having one "hard counter" army against which you will mostly likely lose? There's not really any adaptations, or changes, or anything I can come up with in my codex to change any of that - its just a losing scenario to face off against Mech IG with Dark Eldar; more now than before.

In fact, its like Rock, Paper, Scissor now.

Space Wolves are Rock, Mech IG are scissors, Dark Eldar are paper.

Wishful thinking might hope that I face less Mech IG in the future, but that's unlikely. Do I abandon the Dark Eldar and go back to my Orks? I've been trading out spare stuff for marine bits - should I jump onto the Space Wolf bandwagon?

*edit* Including my list, since folks are asking.

1850 DE

Baron Sathonyx
1x Haemonculi with a Shattershard

5x Warriors (1 blaster) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors (1 blaster) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors (1 blaster) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors (1 blaster) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Warriors (1 blaster) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons

4x Trueborn (4 blasters) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
4x Trueborn (4 blasters) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons
3x Trueborn (3 blasters) in a Venom with 2x Splinter Cannons

1x Beastmaster Unit of 4 Beastmasters with 4 Razorwing Flocks and 9 Khymera

1x Ravager with 3 Dark Lances and a Flickerfield
1x Ravager with 3 Dark Lances and a Flickerfield
1x Ravager with 3 Dark Lances and a Flickerfield

I haven't gone through the whole DE codex, but word was on the street that webways were the way to go in that type of situation.
I'll page through it when I get home and give thoughts.

What I've been doing with my Tau (which, honestly, are rather vulnerable to more than one army) is play more. Play against the armies that you struggle with the most, and make sure that they're run by good players. Make sure your opponent will work with you to discuss tactics and builds, and most importantly, find out what he's afraid of in your army as the game goes along (or what he would be afraid of if you brought it).

I've found this approach to be very effective. It's also great practice!

Do Dark Eldar have Outflankers of any kind?


they might help against IG that are sitting back waiting for you to come to them.

it would make at least a 12" danger zone from their board edges.


Webways could work well too.

I agree. When in doubt, give up and move on. That's what winners do, right?

So the moral of the story is this: What do you do when your "take all comers" efforts result in having one "hard counter" army against which you will mostly likely lose? There's not really any adaptations, or changes, or anything I can come up with in my codex to change any of that - its just a losing scenario to face off against Mech IG with Dark Eldar; more now than before.

In fact, its like Rock, Paper, Scissor now.

Space Wolves are Rock, Mech IG are scissors, Dark Eldar are paper.

To answer your question, I don't play the army if it has a single hard counter. The IG problems means you have to go to tournaments 'hoping' to not play against one of the most common shooty armies. Many armies have to deal with some uphill struggles every now and then though and play for a draw in those cases, but if a hard counter exists then all the fun is lost. It's funny that a Chimera (transport) has a pretty fair fight against a Dark Eldar Ravager (heavy support anti tank vehicle) for half the price, while Venoms won't have any targets at all whole game.

What I don't agree with in your assessment is that Dark Eldar are a hard counter to Space Wolves. In no way is that the case, despite the fact that a few Marines will have to roll a lot of saves against AV10 transports. You can always talk about uphill struggles or about a challenge but calling DE a hard counter to SW is mental. Neither is SW a hard counter to IG like you suggested.

Dash, I wouldnt give up yet. Im almost sold on Haywire blasters to aid mech armies. auto glances narrow the amount of targets you need to hit and severely hinder return fire. I only wish something other then a Talos and our FA section got heat lances

Webways only work if you go first because if you go second they die.

Deepstriking with the baron seems to be a viable option for going second to me.

IG is a tough match-up for DE, no questions asked. IG is a tough match-up for pretty much all the codexes right now; they are at the top of the scrap heap of the 5th Edition codexes. As a fellow DE player, they are the only army I'd actively plan for going into a tournament.

I'm still evolving my tactics and builds, with the goal of trying to find a build that can be mobile (everything in venoms, raiders, etc.) and also utilize WWPs against match-ups that will eat my mobility. The transports can come in on their own, perhaps even deepstrike to get that shot off and/or block LOS as long as the Flickerfield or 4+ flatout save lasts. The units themselves can come from the portal (wyches with Haywires, Scourges with heat lances or haywire blasters, razorwing beasts for mass rending on static vehicles or to rip apart bubblewrap units, Trueborn with blasters, Harlequins with shadowseers to provide cover saves to units behind them and Fusion guns for melta, etc.). I think there's a lot to be yet to be discovered in the codex.

Webways were my first thought too. They keep your army from being shot during the turn they're closing range, with no more disadvantage than regular reserve.

Orks are always a good bet. They have made a resurgence lately in our tournament scene. Stay off the Space Wolf bandwagon. I am constantly disappointed when I show up for a league night or tournament excited to play my wolves and see 5-6 other wolf armies. I usually end up play my Salamanders to add variety to the group. Sad thing is all 7000 points of my Space Wolves are fully painted so playing them would be nice... They are just so prevalent and over saturated in the tournament scene now that I suggest avoiding them.

Nenya97 wrote:Webways only work if you go first because if you go second they die.

So your webways get shot while the rest of your army is turbo boosting at his front lines.

play like tyranids man, multiple threats all at once he has the firepower to deal with all of them, but not the time to do it.

Dash,

Stop for a moment and think like an Ork player. You are limited on the amount of anti-tank you can take. You never seem to let that bother you when tromping around with orks. How did you overcome that?

KFF mech helped, but you had other means at your disposal too. You thought outside of the box.

I think it's time to sit down with the Dark Eldar codex and not just think about it, but hammer out game after game, using every unit 5 or 6 times, trying to see what they can do unexpectadly. Yes, this even includes supposedly terrible units.

You'll find something that fits your playstyle, but not with theory.

The only thing I've come up with is the Duke. He lets you DS and disembark in the same turn, so you don't have to deal with the "come in from reserve and say a 4+ prayer" problem. Doesn't really help with the Wyches, but certainly helps with Blaster squads.

Other people have mentioned the WWP and I like the idea. An 85 pt investment isn't too bad for the ability to get your Blasters (close to) halfway across the board without getting shot.

I'm a little surprised you haven't found the Beastmasters more effective against IG. 4-6 Razorwing Flocks should do bad things to stationary vehicles. What's the problem there?

I'm just theoryhammering here, though. Law school isn't kind to free time. I rely on people like you to do the playtesting.

If you have much else on the board with a webway, what is the point in bringing it? If there is not much in reserves, they can just be dealt with later, especially by a gunline that can just shift away from the one webway that you can bring. If you go second and want to effectively use it, it is going to die and if you field other targets, you are either wasting models or not reserving enough to make enough of a difference and can be ignored.

If you go second, do not use a webway, it becomes pointless because you are getting outshot every game.

I've run into the same issue. My answer?

Bikes. Yeah I wish they had scout and could take haywire, but there you go.

You can still do the charging to kill vehicles thing with the beasts. (And they still charge 12 inches)

Suicide scourges.

So yeah, fast attack fast attack fast attack.

But yeah, Dark Eldar anti-tank shooting isn't so great now.

Oh, if you want to dump dark eldar, a hard counter for mech ig is scout bikes.

It seems like Space Wolves and mech IG are the hard counters to just about every list. If you bring an all comers list against a counter, it'll definitely be an uphill battle to win.

However, perhaps we should start seeing it this way: an "all comers" list isn't really an all comers list after all, if you still have that same weakness.

Why not gear your list specifically towards your counter, and trust the army to still perform well against armies that aren't your counter? For instance, I C:SM list geared to kill mech IG is still going to perform well against Nids, because you'll have bolters for the little guys anyways, and melta/missiles for the MC's/warriors.

Dash, what about flicker fields? a nice 5+ invul save should help..

possibly maxing out on raiders trying to grant each other saves have a couple with FF up front so they're harder to take down.

I wish all my opponents just gave up when they saw my list. Stop whining about it and play more, the answer will come.

"Hoping I don't play my hard counter" has been my strategy with my Mech-IG against tau or shooty wolves. You can try to play the mission and limit the pain, but the army that stops you from doing what you need to do is always going to be tough.

Nenya97 wrote:Webways only work if you go first because if you go second they die.

Deepstriking with the baron seems to be a viable option for going second to me.

Webways are fine if you know how to hide them, like in a harliquin squad, good luck shooting it off the board first turn.

I can't say for sure about DE, but I've played a decent number of games against lists that are tailored to beat mine, and I'd say there are a couple of things that can help:

1.) Think outside the box. Do the math on strange options that you wouldn't consider. Just because something is unpopular doesn't mean it's ineffective - it just means it's unpopular.

2.) Do what you do better than your opponent is able to tailor. I've found that the best remedy to counter people who are set up to take down a guard horde is to take an even bigger guard horde. If you're good at what you do, you're going to force your opponent to play the game you want to play, rather than letting his counter to your list giving him the ability to dictate pace. Plus, you're likely to be a better field commander with units you're already good with.

3.) Know your list. Yes, you no longer have as much anti-tank, but you still have anti tank. Because the units in your army list changed, you're invariably going to have to re-learn how to use the units in your list (which will probably lead you to eventually change it). There simply is no substitute for a deep, intuitive knowledge of how your forces behave on the field, and, unfortunately, your intuitive knowledge is now wrong.

Spend more time with them, and I'm sure you'll figure things out. You just can't play your DE army the same way you used to and hope for equal success.

rjderouin: I play quite a bit. More than most people I'd wager. I'm pretty confident that I can table pretty much anyone out there except for Mech IG. And have proven so repeatedly at tournaments and grand tournaments around the country all year long. "Playing more" isn't the solution to my issue.

jdjamesdean: Every one of my vehicles has a flickerfield, and the front vehicles can be used to grant 4+ to rear vehicles - only as long as they are alive to do so. But with the volume of fire an IG army can put down, there's no reason not to take down the front vehicles first.

shealyr: I can't find a way to *gear* a DE army to specifically mulch through an IG army. Or I *would* do so. What I"m running now is as close as I can get to it.

Off the top of my head, best thing against static tanks.

WWP- 5-man Harlequins squad, Shadowseer with Veil of Tears, stick a Haemonculus in with them. Max your opponent will get is a 24" shot, so that means they a) have to roll extremely well to even shoot at you, b) have to actually hit you, and c) get through all the Harlequins to actually kill your Haemi. Meaning that you should, in theory at least, be able to take two of said squads, set them up as far possible as forward, and at the end of your first turn have down two WWP in turn 1. Scourges seem fairly golden against tanks, as they probably have the most anti-tank options of any DE unit. Other options would be Reavers and Beastmasters. The great thing about all three of those units coming out of a WWP is they all either move or assault 12", meaning that, with the movement of the Harlequins and the added 3" of the WWP, you have a significant board area covered. You probably have already looked at the idea, but I would suggest giving it another shot. Since you can still bring anything but a vehicle through as well, it combo's nicely with Baron Sathonyx and Hellions as troop choices to make an extremely fast army. Then just regular reserve/hide your ravagers, then hopefully have them come out while the IG are bust with everything in the WWP.

As someone above posted, I think it really looks like a rock-paper-scissors sort of thing at the moment... Chatted a while with our local DE player, and he seems convinced that Wracks and the like are the way to go... I'm not so sure, Mech IG is prety tough to take down barring something odd like Wolf Scouts, etc... Reserve, hope that the table has a LOT of cover, etc., but nothing I suspect you have not already come up with. I guess I'm not seeing any of the more obvious tricks that were the norm in the previous codex...

I think that 'play more' may not be the right answer. I think 'play different' may be the answer.

I appreciate that you have a great record with the old dark eldar. I think you need to approach this codex differently and start over with something new. Try out different builds like the WWP, Baron DS or Crazy walking DE and see if they work.

I think that you just have a mental block that because you have been successful with that type of army, all armies should look like that to be successful. I'm willing to wager there is an all-comers list that looks completely different and works against IG.

Don't let success be your defeat.

@Dashofpepper

I completely agree with your analogy that mech guard are the rock to Dark Eldar scissors and it’s difficult to build an all-comers DE list that can actually deal with mech guard.

Please bare with me because I haven’t actually plaid the new DE. Although I am familiar with them, they’re something of a new animal to me and I’ve been excitedly building my shiny new DE army for a while now. I am a veteran Eldar player though and I consider myself lucky that I can build a DE army with a fresh perspective and base my strategic approach on what I already know about Eldar (as well as numerous other armies I’ve built over the years).

My conclusion, accurate or not, is thus:

An “all comers” DE list must not only accept that they will lose their raiders against a mech guard opponent, but build their army around that fact. That means a DE player essentially has ONE round to get units in position to do what they need to do before they lose their mobility. After that, your agile alpha-striker is nothing more than a gun line… ideally a gun line in cover.

Unfortunately, this makes wyches something of a liability because, even if they don’t get shot to pieces after losing their ride, they’ve probably taken some casualties from the exploding raider anyway. So you’re sadly left with an ineffective squad sitting in cover well out of range of the action.

This doesn’t make them worthless though… they can still cap in cover and go to ground to hold an objective. Definitely not their ideal role but, for lack of a better use, this is what they pretty much have to do.

Warriors however can lose their ride and still remain effective through shooting. I’ve heard arguments that say Kabalite Warriors are no good – especially considering the previous price of a dark lance. I disagree with that opinion and I think warriors form the core of an all-comers list. Once their ride is wrecked they can still hang out in cover with an 18” to 24” threat zone. That’s pretty much the entire table even if you moved 24” on from your own table edge via reserves.

Core though they may be, Warriors are still basically IG veterans with a high initiative and poisoned weapons… so the key is to keep them cheep. I forego the lances for blasters and I believe that, when paired with other dedicated vehicle killers in the army (bombers, ravagers, etc.), this should be enough to pop MOST mech guard chimera.

So, mid game, the whole strategy boils down to DE gun line in cover vs IG gun line in cover… a game which is actually in your favor because even though your raiders are about as expensive as your opponents chimera, your weapons have better range and are BS4. What’s more, any raiders that managed to survive the turn 2/3 raider rape will be delivering their precious cargo to wreak havoc through the defenseless IG.

Sadly this is all conjecture on my part as I refuse to bring an unpainted army to the table. I’m very much looking forward to testing my theories in about a month.

Maybe the key is to be even more hyper agressive.

Ig is too shooty and de vehicles are too squishy for the de player to even hope to win a shooting game. Since every raider and venom is going to die anyways they might as well kamakazie into the ig vehicles.

Here is my crazy idea. Deploy everybody on foot and flat out every scimmer you have 36" into ig vehicles, both take a S10 hit. Targets that dump large pie are the priority targets, anything with anti vehicle firepower is low priotity since all you vehicles will be quickly destroyed anyways by ramming or being shot down. The only vehicles left should be some chimera and vendettas and hopefully it will be foot de versus mech ig-the pie.

Not sure how well that plan would actually work, but it sounds like fun to try.

DE are probably going to lose against any army with a reasonable amount of shooting if the initiative gets stolen, not much will change that and I wouldn't be too worried about it. Even if you deployed conservatively (which DE don't really want to do) there won't be enough LOS blocking terrain to keep your army alive. If you don't get the first round of effective shooting (either by going first or reserving and moving on/Deep Striking in and shooting) then things will go downhill very quickly.

IG are always going to be a tough matchup for DE and I think the only real way you can deal with them is to get in close asap. When building an all comers list its probably worth building the list to face up against your toughest matchups even if it means you won't be quite as effective against armies you are normally confident of beating. Consider making a list based around the Duke which always plans on Deep Striking (even if going first) or Harlies with a Portal so they survive a round of shooting before unleashing Beastmasters in close.
You can't win by shooting from 36" even with Nightshields and even if you max out on Dark Lances and Blasters you aren't going to end up with enough anti tank firepower to stand toe to toe with IG. Your best bet is probably going to be Wyches with Haywire Grenades, Beastmasters and enough ranged anti tank from Ravagers etc thrown in to at least stun some vehicles as you close in. Try and open up a few vehicles before the Wyches hit (which should be turn 2 pretty much every game) so you can go for multiple vehicles with the Haywires and Beastmasters and clip an infantry unit to stay in combat. This is the only way I can see you being able to destroy enough vehicles quickly enough before being shot off the board.