Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dashofpepper wrote:@Fetterykey: While it is easy to dispense advice like, "Make a more competitive list" - that kind of advice is a bit wasted on me. When I go to a tournament, I bring what I consider to be the most face-beating list possible in the codex I have. The same holds true for my current iteration of Dark Eldar. I have as competitive of a list as I can think of. With both old and new Dark Eldar, I rarely win by accomplishing mission objectives. In fact, if I had a personal motto it would be, "Screw Objectives, everyone dies!" Almost all of my tournament games end with my opponent tabled, or conceding to save a bit of time while I finish tabling them. Prior to the new DE codex, the two big non-included forces to that standard were Mech IG and triple longfang / Runepriest / Razorback spam Spacewolves. My army was built with those two opponents in mind. Actually, it was built with Mech IG in mind - it was the most likely combination of things that I felt could stand against Mech IG, and I made it work against everyone else. The NEW DE codex has volumes and volumes of splinter fire; not least of all from Venoms - meaning that whether the Dark Eldar go first with an alpha strike or reserves...they are *still* going to get to deliver the first blow. I'm not much of a mathhammer kinda guy, but I just did the math, and it says that in my first turn of firing, two full units of longfangs are dead from statistically failed saves alone. With horrendously heavy anti-troop fire available to tackle longfangs and a few lances and more blasters able to clean out razorbacks - Space Wolves simply aren't much of a threat anymore. The problem here is that the codex doesn't have any ready answers for Mech IG. The list I'm using *is* built as good as it can be to take down Mech IG - I can't think of any more effective build - and it still isn't good enough.

If the most competitive list you can think of can't take all comers and you really really care about being competitive, I would switch armies. It's possible that Codex: Dark Eldar simply isn't good enough against the opponents you face. I think that it's very early to declare the 'dex uncompetitive though, as I think there's still a lot of experimentation to be done in order to see what lists are ideal. What units do you normally field? I know you mentioned lance/blaster count earlier, but I'm not sure where your heat lances come from (or even if you have any), what close combat options you have vs. vehicles, and so on.

Also, do you know the side to front Raider deployment trick? Many people report getting the type of turn 1 haywire grenade assaults that you're looking for by using this method.

I'm going to have to agree that Mech IG is as much a hard counter to DE as you can get.

Frankly, I'm not sure how to counter it. The only idea I've had was changing away from a transport heavy army. But the idea of Harlies + wwp + reserve foot army has to many other problems to it that I'm not sure its even a viable solution.

For me, I'm going to stick to my DE for all the small events in my city (I haven't traveled yet to an event, maybe next year I will). However, mech IG are pretty common here with at least a couple very good generals playing them. It might be that I choose to bring my SM out again for Astronomi-con (biggest event of the year).

Part of winning an event is luck, and you might just have to take your chances and consider what you expect to see at an event. If there are going to be few Mech IG opponents, then bring out the DE. But if you see lots of people bringing Mech IG to counter the new DE, making the meta call to bring another force could be a good plan.

Dashofpepper wrote:As a result, I have decided that Mech IG is an absolute hard counter to DE. So what I'm after is this:

1. If your army has an absolute counter to it, do you continue playing your army and hope to not run into your counter, or start playing another army?

2. To other DE players or codex readers out there....in case I've missed something, how would you build a DE list to take down Mech IG?

1. For the sake of argument, we'll say that IG is a hard counter to DE(it isn't). I would keep playing that army and gear the list toward the armies that I have trouble with, for example when I couldn't seem to beat Orks with my Space Marines in a tournament to save my life, but do so in such a way that I'm not overspecializing. I.E. when I was having a lot of trouble with Orks I analyzed the games I played and decided that killing Battlewagons was the most important thing so I put some things in my list that could do that and if something will smoke a BW first turn it will be useful against other armies no doubt.

Figure out exactly what the problem you have with IG is and think of the most effective way to deal with it for the least amount of points. Boom goes the dynamite.

2. I know a guy who is absolutely wrecking house against all comers, mech IG included, with DE. I wouldn't feel right giving out his list, but I'll post a link and let him decide if he'll enlighten us.

Dashofpepper wrote:Alright, now that I'm fat-fingering my Droid and don't have to avoid abbreviated responses (first time home in 4 days)...
@EmilCrane: Reaver Jetbikes. They got more expensive and less effective against vehicles in the new codex, and shouldn't scare you at all. If someone is willing to dump the points into them (lets say three units of six to get two heatlances each), there's going to be three incredibly expensive units turboing across the field at you. With 3+ saves for a turn. And if they end up within 24" of you on the first turn, even your lasguns are going to be able to range them. And they only have a single wound protected by a 3+ cover save. Hydras can ignore it, flamers can ignore it....not to mention that volume of fire will do its trick. And even if those heat lances survive to deliver their payload on turn two, its a one trick pony. Best case scenario is that all three units survived to deliver two heat lances each, which can only affect a total of three vehicles - and being STR6 melta against AV12 isn't reassurance - not to mention that after delivery of those weapons, those bikes now have a 5+ armour save instead of a 3+ turbo-boosting save. As an IG player, I'd HOPE to see people dropping a lot of points into those bikes. And laugh all the way to your massacre.

Didn't know that... of course I can only look at the amtch up from one perspective. That being said I have yet to lose a proper game to DE with my guard. I think DE anti tank suffers from lascannon syndrome. In that its just a high strength weapon even if it does lower your armour value.

Fetterkey wrote:

Also, do you know the side to front Raider deployment trick? Many people report getting the type of turn 1 haywire grenade assaults that you're looking for by using this method.

I'm not going to go so far as to say that I invented that one, but I made heavy use out of it with my wych cult and the old codex. The rotation gives about an extra 2", which relies both on your opponent deploying ON the line and a good fleet roll now that the possibility of a 12" charge is gone - neither of which I'm comfortable relying on against an intelligent opponent.


@Monster Rain: Again - don't tell me that Mech IG isn't a hard counter to DE. EXPLAIN IT. Back yourself up. Explain how DE can trounce through Mech IG, how they can go into the fight not dreading what's to come, desperately hoping for first turn and amazing dice rolls. Explain the list and the tactics that puts shame to my generalization that Mech IG is the hard counter to DE.

I will send you cookies. And GW stuff. Enlighten me. Your "figure out what the problem you have with IG is and how to deal with it" is useless.

Dashofpepper wrote:I will send you cookies. And GW stuff. Enlighten me. Your "figure out what the problem you have with IG is and how to deal with it" is useless.

When your OP is so scant with game details what exactly in the sam hill am I supposed to comment on, specifically? So he stole the initiative from you? I suggest getting right with Jesus. What is it, exactly, about IG that gives you a hard time? I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to suggest pondering.

Shoot the tanks then. When the space manz get out, assault them. Oh, and don't get shot in return.

Honestly man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:@Monster Rain: Again - don't tell me that Mech IG isn't a hard counter to DE. EXPLAIN IT. Back yourself up. Explain how DE can trounce through Mech IG, how they can go into the fight not dreading what's to come, desperately hoping for first turn and amazing dice rolls.

I'm saying that PRACTICALLY EVERY ARMY has the same problem with IG. It's not unique to DE. Remember when I said that? Twice?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:@Monster Rain: Again - don't tell me that Mech IG isn't a hard counter to DE. EXPLAIN IT. Back yourself up. Explain how DE can trounce through Mech IG, how they can go into the fight not dreading what's to come, desperately hoping for first turn and amazing dice rolls.

When your OP is so scant with game details what exactly in the sam hill am I supposed to comment on, specifically? So he stole the initiative from you? I suggest getting right with Jesus. What is it, exactly, about IG that gives you a hard time? I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to suggest pondering.

Shoot the tanks then. When the space manz get out, assault them. Oh, and don't get shot in return.

Honestly man.

I'm saying that PRACTICALLY EVERY ARMY has the same problem with IG. It's not unique to DE. Remember when I said that? Twice?

IG isn't the only army that can shoot DE vehicles.

What he said.

Also, Monster Rain - Mech IG working well against other armies doesn't make them NOT a hard counter to Mech IG.

At this point, left no other real recourse (especially reading some of your other posts that have equally nonsensical logic - like the piracy thread), I've no real choice but to ignore you for fear of getting embroiled in tangents or more of your nonsense. Sorry bud.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:IG isn't the only army that can shoot DE vehicles.

No, but it is in the one army that can present as MANY vehicles as the DE, all capable of outshooting the DE, among other issues. Space Marine / Blood Angel / Space Wolf Razorback spam is *also* annoying - but a single lascannon shot; twin-linked or not is less threatening than triple multi-laser shots (and a heavy bolter on top of it) spitting out the front of every single vehicle. And probably some autocannons thrown in. And that's before we even get to the heavy weapons of the army. =p

Hey Dash, I realize that Ravagers are really good at killing armor, but they will be the first thing a Mech IG opponent will shoot at. They might ignore the Talos or Cronos thinking it's no big deal, only to then realize that the Talos is a monster against tanks. When it can have twin-linked Heat lances for 15 points, that is a great and cheap upgrade. Or even better, a twin linked Haywire blaster for 5 points (5 points!? That's stupidly broken). There's a tank killer right there.

I'm not saying that the Ravager is bad at all, but it's thinking inside the box. Someone expecting to play aginst Eldar will invariably take Hydra's to counter Flat-out Cover saves. That's one of two ways a Raider/Ravager can stay alive against heavy weapons, either going really fast and sacrificing all abilities to off load troops or fire their tank killing weapons, or relying on a 5+ invunerable, which might happen once a game before it's killed. Not saying it's a bad vehicle, but it puts a lot of tank killing eggs in one basket. Plus when your opponent is expecting skimmers they will invariably take weapons that have more shots but less damage, more autocannons, which are pretty ineffective against a Talos that's in a coke fueled rage. FNP is way too good to be ignored in lieu of a 5+ invunerable.

As for the Voidraven, I didn't fall in love with the lances, it's the mobility plus the Aerial Assault rule I like. Deep Strike on a platform like that is awesome. Much like Vendetta it can lay down some serious fire as soon as it arrives. Plus, with a clustered deployment zone, a Void mine will do great things, especially against Side armor if it hits the top.

As for the comment about the Vendetta, I was alluding to the fact that I outflank my Valkirye/Vendetta, so I can't alpha strike a Talos with one.

Maybe I just have bad luck with BS3 but I don't find chimeras to be too effective at popping Raiders. I usually only get one hit out of three shots.

Stormrider wrote:

As for the Voidraven, I didn't fall in love with the lances, it's the mobility plus the Aerial Assault rule I like. Deep Strike on a platform like that is awesome. Much like Vendetta it can lay down some serious fire as soon as it arrives. Plus, with a clustered deployment zone, a Void mine will do great things, especially against Side armor if it hits the top.

The Ravager has triple lances instead of one, costs significantly less points (thus allowing more killing power into the list), and *also* has aerial assault. =D

Dashofpepper wrote:As a result, I have decided that Mech IG is an absolute hard counter to DE. So what I'm after is this:

1. If your army has an absolute counter to it, do you continue playing your army and hope to not run into your counter, or start playing another army?

Sorry if it sounded generalized. Since it was my first post entrance into this thread, I wanted to make it general.

Anywho, for an absolute counter to your army with little chance to change anything come gametime...it's best to take a longer perspective. Do you want to continue with your army knowing certain match-up are nigh impossible to win? As it is, does your Dark Eldar offer you the best chance to win with 5th edition rules given any circumstance you may throw at it, with army points being equal?

My perspective is to try new strategies within what you believe could be something new you have not tried with your army yet. Have you played enough games against Mech IG to know there is nothing new to throw at it? Does that mean you need to alter your army to be able to handle it yet still be take-all-comers enough to handle everything else as you have?

If it doesn't work out, try something else. There are how many armies out there? Enough to keep you trying to find that perfect army.

EDIT: Also, my DE experience is rather thin. I've been wiped off the field with the new DE codex with my Mech Orks at 1850, so most of my knowledge comes from the other end of the spectrum of DE experience. So if your so inclined, please ignore my advice if it doesn't serve your interests.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:IG isn't the only army that can shoot DE vehicles.

No, but it is in the one army that can present as MANY vehicles as the DE, all capable of outshooting the DE, among other issues. Space Marine / Blood Angel / Space Wolf Razorback spam is *also* annoying - but a single lascannon shot; twin-linked or not is less threatening than triple multi-laser shots (and a heavy bolter on top of it) spitting out the front of every single vehicle. And probably some autocannons thrown in. And that's before we even get to the heavy weapons of the army. =p

Since when do mech IG armies take heavy bolters instead of heavy flamers on Chimerae? Also, a multi-laser performs significantly worse against Raiders than a twin-linked lascannon and slightly worse than a single lascannon. I still don't really see what makes mech IG distinct from other shooting-based armies here, especially if you're not fielding Reavers, which are extremely weak against mech IG thanks to the prevalence of Heavy Flamers (and perhaps Hydra autocannons) but otherwise a good choice. What's the difference between a Rifleman Dreadnought shooting 4 autocannon shots at your Ravager and a Hydra doing the same, for example?

Dash how many models does your list normally have? And what list was the IG guy using? I really think you would be better off putting more wounds on the table.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Stormrider wrote:

As for the Voidraven, I didn't fall in love with the lances, it's the mobility plus the Aerial Assault rule I like. Deep Strike on a platform like that is awesome. Much like Vendetta it can lay down some serious fire as soon as it arrives. Plus, with a clustered deployment zone, a Void mine will do great things, especially against Side armor if it hits the top.

The Ravager has triple lances instead of one, costs significantly less points (thus allowing more killing power into the list), and *also* has aerial assault. =D

*Reading Codex* Reading comprehension is the key! In that case I concur with that choice.

Have you tried a WWP list yet Dash? I'm curious as to your thoughts on going that route.

I know its much different, but it does offer solutions to many problems with Mech IG.

Fetterkey wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:IG isn't the only army that can shoot DE vehicles.

No, but it is in the one army that can present as MANY vehicles as the DE, all capable of outshooting the DE, among other issues. Space Marine / Blood Angel / Space Wolf Razorback spam is *also* annoying - but a single lascannon shot; twin-linked or not is less threatening than triple multi-laser shots (and a heavy bolter on top of it) spitting out the front of every single vehicle. And probably some autocannons thrown in. And that's before we even get to the heavy weapons of the army. =p

Since when do mech IG armies take heavy bolters instead of heavy flamers on Chimerae? Also, a multi-laser performs significantly worse against Raiders than a twin-linked lascannon and slightly worse than a single lascannon. I still don't really see what makes mech IG distinct from other shooting-based armies here, especially if you're not fielding Reavers, which are extremely weak against mech IG thanks to the prevalence of Heavy Flamers (and perhaps Hydra autocannons) but otherwise a good choice. What's the difference between a Rifleman Dreadnought shooting 4 autocannon shots at your Ravager and a Hydra doing the same, for example?

I never take multi-lasers on Chimeras anymore, of course my local meta is very devoid of Dark Eldar, I just can't bring my self to sacrifice 2 AP for +1 S. Same amount of shots and same range, just better infantry killer.

Have you considered a trueborn unit? Are you going MSU with DE? Are you using beasts, Harlequins? Without knowing your list, it is hard to give solutions to IG Mech spam.

Yeah, I think seeing a list would clear up a lot of the confusion we're having here.

I think this discussion can be further enriched if Dash were to put up a New DE vs Mech IG batrep. It would give people a better understanding in the core areas Dash is requesting tactical feedback for.

Fetterkey wrote:IG isn't the only army that can shoot DE vehicles.

I agree.

If vehicles getting blasted to bits is the issue I think that DE would have an equally hard time against a well-built SW army. If you army has more than one "Hard Counter" you're doing it wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:What he said.

Also, Monster Rain - Mech IG working well against other armies doesn't make them NOT a hard counter to Mech IG.

At this point, left no other real recourse (especially reading some of your other posts that have equally nonsensical logic - like the piracy thread), I've no real choice but to ignore you for fear of getting embroiled in tangents or more of your nonsense. Sorry bud.

ITT someone asks for advice and then criticizes and insults people that disagree with his premise.

Ah well. When I look at my friends list and compare it to who I have ignoring me I feel like I'm doing something right.

Ok, how many points per game are we talking here?

What works at one point level does not necessarily work at all point levels. People usually only think of the game at the points they commonly play, and it sounds like natter to people playing at different points.

Dashofpepper wrote:No, but it is in the one army that can present as MANY vehicles as the DE, all capable of outshooting the DE, among other issues. Space Marine / Blood Angel / Space Wolf Razorback spam is *also* annoying... snip

It's not just Razorbacks, generally. A lot of the builds I see have several speeders with Missile Launchers on them as well as plenty of Longfangs. They're putting out a fair amount of S8 shots, and more accurately than IG before you factor in Bring it Down, Bring it Down.

Then if you factor in Drop Pods...

Whine about it and blame dice/scenario's/missions.

That seems to work for most people.

When your "counter's" true strength is anti-tank, it can be prudent to take a horde list. One of the most under-appreciated lists is dark horde-dar.

The dark horde is made up of these parts;
1) A gunline of warriors with darklances/blaster to shoot tanks at long range, and make a 24 inch no man's land fo infantry
2) A shield to give them cover: either harliquins with shadowseer to force them to come closer, or gone to ground mandrakes
3) Pain token dispensor, such as haemoculi to make the army twice as tough
4) Power projection:
4a) Mixed beast squads-tough, damageing, wound allocation
4b) Grotesqes to add to the beasts wall of flesh
4c) or jetbikes to harass
4d) or bolster the gunline with scourges
5) No vehicles to waste his incredible anti-tank potential

If he stays away he gets worn down and eventualy hit by the power projection, if he gets close theres a 24 inch poison no mans land, and 12-18 inch assualt to stop him

The best way to beat guard is to think like them, dark eldar are almost as cheap and are tougher than a foot guard list

I posted my list into my OP.

Hmm...

Have you considered any Hellions or Scourges; anything that could be taken in massive quantities that you can sacrifice unit for unit in taking out mech IG's tanks and transports?

What are the possibilities with Deep Strike and Outflanking that you could possibly use, maybe threats to hem them in closer to you and get your army's threats closer to theirs?

I'm surprised that you say that list is tailored towards facing mech IG. Your Troops choices have very limited anti-tank power, and you don't have a single heat lance or haywire grenade in the army. The Baron as well as the Hæmonculus honestly seem pretty misplaced here to boot. The list would be vastly improved if you removed one Venom squad and gave all the other Warrior squads a blast pistol-- however, I still don't think it would necessarily be the best option out there.

I think the fundamental problem with this list is that, aside from the Ravagers, you basically have two unit types (Venoms and guys that shoot blasters with varying effectiveness), and then one pseudo-deathstar. Mech IG don't really care about the Venoms, and the blasters have to get up close in order to engage the enemy. I don't think that pure Venom spam will prove effective against mech IG (and indeed, a few other varieties of mech) for that reason, and would suggest taking a more varied list, or at least one that takes advantage of more of what the new Codex has to offer.

About the bikes:
People are used to thinking of melta bikes as a form of suicide squad, but Dark Eldar bikes don't do that very well. You turboboost, blah blah, shoot, then have 5+ saves.

I don't think that's the right way to use reaver bikes. Considering that they have a 36" turboboost, if they successfully kill any transports in the subsequen turn they should be charging the remnants in that same turn.

That's why I think the idea of taking 6 bikes or 3 bikes just for melta is the wrong way to go.

I think the "trick" is the classic "hide in hth trick" that dark eldar players have used for years.

Instead of thinking...how do I kill every goddamn tank? Maybe how can I neutralize the effectiveness of the tanks?

I think, pretty much without a doubt, IG win the shoot war.

So instead, look for that...shoot a couple transports and use the remnants as a control method.

This is why bubble wrapping doesn't work against scout bikes. A clever scout bike player recognizes that any guard screen on the field can be manipulated if you have more than one fast assault unit.
Because you scout 24" (thus getting turbo boost regardless of stealing the initiative or not) and THEN move 12" and charge 6 (and you can't be slowed by difficult terrain; you just lose models) You can pretty much setup any type of evil, messed up, funneling close combat shennanigans where only one bike fights, or sucking in multiple screens into combat, etc. etc.

The reaver bikes have a 36" turboboost. Granted, they don't have scout, krak grenades, access to a fist, or toughness 5, but they do have access to feel no pain and have a 36" turboboost. They can assault a remnant after shooting down the transport. And the ONLY way to effectively gurantee that this strategy works is to go outside the box and take 9 bikes (and hence 3 heat lances). Open with a haemonculus attached to the unit, then tell him to GTFO when you turboboost. Manipulating them correctly means a single unit can potentially kill a large number of transports without getting shot at very much.

This type of horrific disruption pretty much gurantees that the bikes will be killed, but they will take the heat away from the rest of your army. Pun totally intended.

And if you somehow get +1 Strength on drug roll and your 2nd token (furious charge)?

If only phil kelly had given them scout, haywire grenades, or strength 4.