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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Hey folks!

Beastmasters seem to be an overlooked unit by many Dark Eldar players, so I wanted to talk about them specifically.

At either 1850 or 2000 I'm running either 4x Beastmasters with 4x Razorwings and 10x Kymerae or 4x Beastmasters with 4x Razorwings and 9x Khymerae.

Vision:
I see Beastmasters as the ultimate tie-up unit. They're not a close combat monstrosity, but they've incredibly difficult to kill.

Achievements:
1. In a game the other day, my beast unit was charged by a unit of 5 Thunderwolf cavalry. They tied combat for four rounds of combat before being assaulted by a unit of grey hunters with a rune priest attached - where they finally finished off both units over the next three rounds of combat.

2. In a game last week, they charged a horde of 30 orks and won over two player turns, survived Loota fire the following ork turn, and over the rest of the game were assaulted by two more units of 30 orks (one at a time) both of which perished; scoring a total of 90 ork kills.

What makes them tick:
1. Save the discussion about whether beasts benefit from PtP for THIS THREAD where a solid majority of players go with the entry in the codex that "the entire unit benefits."

2. At the beginning of every game, I attach a Haemonculi to the Beast unit and pass them a pain token - thereafter the Haemonculi is basically a cheap, throwaway HQ that I run around with trueborn (although he is packing a Shattershard should the opportunity present).

3. I run Baron Sathonyx with the beasts. While the beastmaster unit doesn't benefit from a 12" charge while he's attached which can lead to some awkward situations where you end up trying to judge whether to detach him to make an assault somewhere or not, the benefits he give the unit are incalcuable: +1 cover save, offensive and defensive grenades.

4. As such, my beast unit can start on the table with a 3+ cover save, 4+ feel no pain, 10/18 models in the unit with a 4++ invulnerable save, 76 attacks on the charge (24 of which are rending), and doing the whole thing with offensive grenades at I6 and I5. With a second haemonculi attached (or at least starting attached), you can also grant them furious charge with a second haemonculi, making them I7 and I6 on the charge, and STR4 and STR5 instead of STR3 and STR4.

5. Their single glaring weakness is being T3 across the board - STR6+ weapons can insta-kill a base, but with 3+ cover saves from shooting and 4+ invulnerable saves in close combat, those attacks can be heavily mitigated.

6. What's more, if the unit has the Baron with them while they have those two pain tokens, he becomes STR8 on the charge. Unfortunately he doesn't have a power weapon, but he can crack open vehicles with ease while the beasts mob around it to prevent disembarkation in case of a wrecked result, not to mention being able to insta-kill any T4 model.

In short....these guys are an absolute gem. In a DE shooting army, they provide a counter-assault or screening unit, or an effective tie-up unit. In an assault army, they complement the strengths and weaknesses of Incubi and wyches quite well. The Baron serves as an incredible force multiplier not only for his ability to grant them +1 cover, but also for his phantasm grenade launcher - insuring you'll almost always go first on the assault, and if you get assaulted, you negate the charge bonus of your enemy.

In terms of models for them, I just got a box of Hellions today; four of them will turn into beastmasters, and the fifth will be coverted into Baron Sathonyx. Dire Wolves from LOTR will be making my khymerae, and converted scarabs with wings will be serving as my razorwing flock.


   
Made in au
Malicious Mandrake





I completely agree with all of the above; beastmasters are a vicious tarpit unit.

Except I'm going to use Wargs from LOTR as my khymerae...

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Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator





Anywhere worth being

I'm not entirely sure your setup is legal Dash. I don't have the codex with me right now, but you get ONE of the THREE choices of beasts for each Beastmaster. So, for 4 Beastmasters, you can choose 1 option... and aren't Kymerae 1-2? Which means that for one Beastmaster, you may have 1-2 Kymerae, but no other choices for that one BM.

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Made in us
Araqiel




Yellow Submarine

I'm sure Beast Masters will become a staple unit. Complex wound allocation shenanigans, highly mobile plus they can flip tanks. What's not to love ?

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

shealyr wrote:I'm not entirely sure your setup is legal Dash. I don't have the codex with me right now, but you get ONE of the THREE choices of beasts for each Beastmaster. So, for 4 Beastmasters, you can choose 1 option... and aren't Kymerae 1-2? Which means that for one Beastmaster, you may have 1-2 Kymerae, but no other choices for that one BM.


The choices per Beastmaster are as follows:

0-5 Khymerae
0-1 Clawed Fiend
0-2 Razorwing Flock.

   
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Anywhere worth being

Dashofpepper wrote:
shealyr wrote:I'm not entirely sure your setup is legal Dash. I don't have the codex with me right now, but you get ONE of the THREE choices of beasts for each Beastmaster. So, for 4 Beastmasters, you can choose 1 option... and aren't Kymerae 1-2? Which means that for one Beastmaster, you may have 1-2 Kymerae, but no other choices for that one BM.


The choices per Beastmaster are as follows:

0-5 Khymerae
0-1 Clawed Fiend
0-2 Razorwing Flock.


Okay, so your unit is perfectly legal

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Made in ca
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout






Windsor, Ontario

I agree with the capabilities of the unit whole-heartedly; it's a lot of attacks from a far more durable unit than the T3 implies. The 3+ cover and supply of 1W 4++ Khymerae makes heavy weapons far less effective on the unit, and if you're shooting lots of low S there are enough wounds to soak it up.

My only concern is the cost; your anecdotes all sound like things I would fully expect from a 408 point unit.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

The Baron is 105 points for the force multiplier, and the beast unit is about 250.

   
Made in ca
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout






Windsor, Ontario

You're paying 65 for the haemonculus too, of course.
   
Made in us
Deadshot Weapon Moderati





There are lots of possibilities for the Beastmasters. I personally like a maxed out razor wing flock. 55 wounds with 60 rending attacks on the charge. I use 1 WWP and they come in from there. Nasty unit. I like what you have done with them and might give that a shot one of these days. Good post.






 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

The Defenestrator wrote:You're paying 65 for the haemonculus too, of course.


In my army, the Haemonculi only starts with them to pass them a pain token, then detaches and goes to join another unit.

   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge






I posted something about how good this unit is the other day. They have been severely overlooked. First off, they don't need to be in a Webway Portal list. They are beasts and will reach CC. If you join a Hamonculus and then leave them the pain token, they are surprisingly durable. A setup of:

4 Beastmasters
4 Razorwing Flocks
2 Clawed Fiends

Works very well and is 188 points. The Razorwings have 20 total wounds. The Clawed Fiends can take the high strength shots that would ID the Razors. In CC this unit has a nice output and is relatively immune to getting powerfisted as you can take the wound on the T5 CF.

If the opponent tries to shoot this unit, they are wasting time with light guns as they have FNP. If they shoot them with heavy guns, they are ignoring the Raider/Ravagers.

Beasts are very, very good.

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Snord




NC, USA

Is there any guidance on the base sizes that should be used with the razorwings, kymerae or clawed fiends?
   
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Sslimey Sslyth




I'm also a fan of having at least one Clawed Fiend in the unit, just to throw the occasionally high strength shot at. It'll still have the cover save and possible FnP against the wound, and a failed wound won't remove the model. Even if you take a wound, you get an extra higher strength attack.
   
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Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne






Dorset, UK

Dashofpepper wrote: Dire Wolves from LOTR will be making my khymerae, and converted scarabs with wings will be serving as my razorwing flock.


Do you mean WHFB Dire wolves? or Something else that I've missed?

   
Made in us
Sslimey Sslyth




Gorechild wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote: Dire Wolves from LOTR will be making my khymerae, and converted scarabs with wings will be serving as my razorwing flock.


Do you mean WHFB Dire wolves? or Something else that I've missed?


Personally, I still have ten of the old Warp Beasts; just gonna keep using them. I was kicking around using WHFB Bat Swarms for Razorwings, and maybe a Ork Boar or old Spawn model for the Clawed Fiend.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

@Saldiven: I only have 5 warpbeasts, so my choices were to try finding five more, or just starting fresh with 10 of something else.

@Gorechild: I mispoke; its the LOTR wargs I'm getting, not the WHFB Dire Wolves.

@Saldiven again: I've considered and reconsidered again the Clawed Fiend, but what it comes down to is this: It requires a beastmaster by itself, and you only get one of them, and they're quite expensive. The survivability of a cover save makes me comfortable putting those high strength attacks on things like my beastmasters - whom are the worst models in the unit (not to mention down there with the cheapest). Taking a 3+ save against a high strength attack is acceptable to me - but in reality, I don't really get shot at with high strength weapons - those are rightfully reserves for people trying to take down my vehicles, instead of my beasts.

@Mattbranb: Calvary are supposed to be on 2" bases - between the long square bases provided for Warp Beasts and used for Wargs/Dire Wolves, they're fine - if you're going to convert your own, just make sure you're using 2" bases.

   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger




Just thought I would pop in to add my 2 cents.

I really was flabbergasted when I saw all the DE tactica and threads where they would give literally 1 line for the beastmasters along these lines

Beastmasters: Uncompetitive, wyches do a better job for less.

I mean, 5 wounds and 5 attacks that are rending at initiative 5 for 15 points..... Are you kidding me? As DoP mentioned, even without the cavalry charge range, these guys could still find uses, and once you add that in, its just icing on the cake.

I have only tried it once or twice, but when I have used it, I used the dual clawed fiend setup Jgrand mentioned. I was already leaning towards trying to experiment with adding one more beastmaster with Khymarae, which would up its survivability even more. I think a squad with 5 beastmasters, 4 RWF, 2 CF, 5 Khymarae, and the obligatory Haemonculus for the pain token comes out to around 300 points, but the amount of fire it could soak up is pretty mind boggling. And as already mentioned, the number of attacks, and particularly rending attacks you get on the charge is just stupid good.


 
   
Made in ca
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout






Windsor, Ontario

DashofPepper wrote:In my army, the Haemonculi only starts with them to pass them a pain token, then detaches and goes to join another unit.

You have to admit that 90% of the cost of a haemonculus is the pain token. Sure, you're gaining a shattershard, but you're also forcing another unit to waste much of it's first turn to pick him up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the unit is bad by any stretch; I just think an accurate assessment of cost is an important factor.

I feel like a mix of khymerae and razorwing flocks is vital; if you run all khymerae, you run the risk of simply being hosed down with low-strength fire (thus mitigating the value of your 4++). If you run all razorwing flocks, however, you suffer the same fate as swarms; a big handful of S6+ hits in a turn (see: number of S6+ large blasts that exist) are going to completely ruin the value of having so many multi-wound models.

If you feel the need to include a clawed fiend, that's understandable; the only way to do it properly, imo, is to make sure he takes 3 wounds as quickly as possible, then never assign another save to him again. Since he has no way to ignore armour, I feel like the only way to get your 40 points' worth (and your beastmaster's worth) is for him to have all 7 S5 attacks, and keep him hidden behind all the razorwing flock wounds.
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator






MD. Baltimore Area

personally I think that the way you are planning to run them, the clawed fiend is not a good choice, but here is another set of ideas for you to consider.

Honestly, if you are dead set on the baron, I read a battle report with him in a big unit (maxed) of scourges with splinter cannons. I think this would work better together as your stealth unit can hang out in cover and pour mid/long range fire into things. You get to keep the 12" move on the baron. Putting the baron with a combat unit means that you will often be out of cover where his bonus is not as helpful.


I think that for the Beast unit, you could then add a Clawed fiend for the extra survivability and the extra charge range. With out the 12" charge I think that the extra time they will spend before they get into assault range means they can be avoided more easily and will take more fire before they land. Also, with T5 you can take your FNP on the fiend against anything shy of a railgun. I would take 5 beast masters 1 fiend, 10 kymera, and 4 flocks, for 280 pts plus the hemi, which I would think is almost optional as you can play with wound allocation until you get your first pain token.

I think that you also need to consider what kind of targets your beasts should be going after, and what targets you other units can not deal with. Incubi can put out the hurt on the 2+ save but small units, Wyches tie up and grind down expensive units with a lot of power attacks, Wracks are good at High toughness things and some anti-horde with the liquifier guns. i think that beast master unit puts out a lot of regular attacks, I see them as something to jump on and eat through the really big horde units with bad saves like blob guard or orks.

remember that you can always charge stuff you can not hurt just for the extra movement, like drop pods and other tanks. I really think that it is worth it to try and keep the 12" charge range on the unit.

All this being said, it is hard to argue with your results with the unit. However it looks like most people took the fight to your beasts not know how hard they were to fight. Both of your examples involved other units charging INTO them. As people come to realize that they are such a powerhouse combat unit, people may start to avoid them and you might find them fighting less stuff without the extra charge range.

what do you think of giving a master an agonizer? I am not sold on it for only 2(3) attacks, but wracks only get 2(3) attacks with it as well and I have seen people recommend it for them as well

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/12/07 22:51:10


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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Svendrex:

I definitely don't think that an agonizer is worthwhile on a beastmaster.

   
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Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

So what you're saying is, I should buy more hellhounds?


-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

HawaiiMatt wrote:So what you're saying is, I should buy more hellhounds?


-Matt


That would be much appreciated. I'd like to see less Vendettas and more Hellhounds from everyone.

   
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

Dashofpepper wrote:That would be much appreciated. I'd like to see less Vendettas and more Hellhounds from everyone.
Is anyone else having trouble telling if he's joking or not?

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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Oh, I'm serious. I'd rather see transportless flamer tanks than scouting triple twin-linked lascannon toting, squad carrying vehicles ANYDAY.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Eternal Plague

To be perfectly honest, I don't think I've every seen a Hellhound in battle...ever.

   
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Daemonic Dreadnought






Dashofpepper wrote:Oh, I'm serious. I'd rather see transportless flamer tanks than scouting triple twin-linked lascannon toting, squad carrying vehicles ANYDAY.


That doesn't sound so bad as long as the vehicle in question isn't a fast scimmer with built in xtra armor.

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Fixture of Dakka





Los Angeles

Dashofpepper wrote: and converted scarabs with wings will be serving as my razorwing flock.
Fluff-wise and for modeling, has anyone a good idea what they're supposed to look like? The paragraph in C: DE, page 30 is rather detail-less & vague. "Raptors"?

It'd be cool if I could get a few origami looking things, all sharp angles and such. Mounted on the 2" rectangles, of course.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/10 04:45:46


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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Have you seen the flying ripper swarms from FW?

There's a bat swarm in LOTRO that I looked at as well, but ultimately didn't like any of it as much.

   
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Inside a pretty, pretty pain cave... won't you come inside?

I use bat swarms for razorwings and fantasy Chaos warhounds for khymerae, everything on a 40mm terminator base because I honestly don't know what size to put them on. I found better swarms out there (the bats are ugly, ugly models), but they work for now.

My 2 cents is that I agree with Dash's assessment (and Hulksmash, who, amongst others, has been advocating beastmasters since day one). I go the 5 khymerae/8 flock assault version, with zero upgrades on the masters, 240 points. Nasty, nasty stuff, even without Pain Token usage (which I think does apply, at least to the masters, if not their beasts).

 
   
 
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