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FM Ninja 048 wrote:Marmite weathering?

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Sounds like we've boiled this down to a matter of semantics and choice of definition. Checking the dictionary, only third and last defnition of painting involves a brush, with most definitions referring only to the applying of paint to a surface. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/painting

I subscribe to the broader definiteions that anytime you have a solid pigment suspended in a liquid (the definition of "paint") used to coat a surface, that's "painting". So the Minwax polyshades, laquer based paints, latex paints, washes, spray paints, airbrushed paints, etc, etc, can all be used for painting.

On the other hand, clearly we have those who use the third definition and define painting as paint being applied with a brush.

"What we have here is a failure to communicate...."

Actually, looking in a dictionary won't help you as the "dipping" that most of us are referring to is a word that has become jargon specific to our little microcosm of the universe. I recommend any and all that are confused as to what "dipping" is to type "wargame miniature dipping" into google and read a few of the resulting pages. I did and not once was "dipping" referred to as applying anything other than a shade and varnish.

agnosto wrote: Dipping does not replace painting nor is it meant to; what it does do is replace the time that I would spend on applying several washes to an already painted mini and applying a varnish coat at the same time. Why would anyone want to take the time to apply several washes to a mini if you can get the same results by a quick flick of the brush or a dip? It's like telling someone building a house they're doing it wrong when they're using power tools instead of hand tools.:

You see, there are some of us who do not apply 'several washes' to finish a paint job, like myself. I am not against dipping as a substitute for a number of washes, but I am against it when it is used over base colors to imitate a paint-job. I used to be a terrible painter, and now i'm pretty average- I can paint a many layered(at least 7 on the armor) space wolf terminator in around about two hours now.

Bossasaurus wrote:You see, there are some of us who do not apply 'several washes' to finish a paint job, like myself. I am not against dipping as a substitute for a number of washes, but I am against it when it is used over base colors to imitate a paint-job. I used to be a terrible painter, and now i'm pretty average- I can paint a many layered(at least 7 on the armor) space wolf terminator in around about two hours now.

Wow, 10 hours for a 5 man squad? I bet they look way better then people's dipped models. Of course, you have zero gallery images, so who knows?

Agnosto,
We do indeed...
I wasn't questioning the definition of Dipping. I've read the early articles, including the wargaming magazine scans. Rather I was trying to point out the falacy of the definitions of "painting" that some seem to be holding up as their basis for disliking dipping.

Bossasaurus wrote: but I am against it when it is used over base colors to imitate a paint-job.

Just to clarify, do you mean you are against dipping over:

-Base color. As in one basecolor, dip, matte spray and done.
or
-Base colors. As in basecoat, block colors, dip, matte spray, done.

Because if it's the second defintion, then you're pretty much against dipping as it's been intended to be done since it's inception.

That is not to say that people can't or don't add additional steps of highlighting, etc with the dipping. However, the most general and accepted definition of the dipping process is basecoat, block colors, dip (emersion or more recently, brush on), and done, with matte/flat sealer now being standard practice, though earliest articles make no mention of it.

Bossasaurus wrote:You see, there are some of us who do not apply 'several washes' to finish a paint job, like myself. I am not against dipping as a substitute for a number of washes, but I am against it when it is used over base colors to imitate a paint-job.

I'm not even sure you can imitate a paint job with it since it's just a shading tool and doesn't add any color (other than the shade that's going to collect in corners and joints).

My dipped Tyranids.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-299-14105_Hive%20Fleet%20Kielbasa.html

I love the look of dipped models I think for 40k its suits a lot of the armies and I rather play agaisnt a fully painted "dip" army then a grey horde with 3 or 4 well painted models that IMO dont really look that much better then the dipped as most folk can get a more consistent look using dip.

Sorry to all the hardcore painters out there but I dont really care how well your model is painted from 3ft away on the table

I chose 'Other'. I've played dipped armies, back when I first polayed with smurfs. Badly Painted, 1st time out of the blocks smurfs.
Since then I've painted a Tau and an Ork Army.
As long as I'm not facing the Plastic Legions with NO discernable markings, I couldn't give a feth how someone has finished their army. In fact, as many have pointed out, with a dipped army, you've to be neater and choose your scheme more carefully, other wise, it's the same effect as loading up a big brush and slathering a mini with wash.

What surprises me is that there is only now a poll about Dipping, when it's been a technique on the radar for what? 5 years now, from seeing my first Dipped army at Warpcon 2006?

Its a painting technique like anything else if you ask me...

Besides Im never one to critique most other peoples painting...if they are happy w how their army looks then so am I!

How is what people do to paint their models anyone's business but theirs?

For me its about adding a level of protection that a simple matte spray varnich can't provide. Its about adding shade and depth in addition to the techniques I am still learning. Like everything else, its a tool to be used. Your mileage will vary according to what your goal is.

I think the Nids look excellent dipped, it provides better results than i would be bothered to paint on 20-40 models.

I probably wouldn't dip anything larger than troops though as I quite like the painting aspect of the hobby.

Idk, I would never spend loads on a model and not do it justice with its paint job. Seems like a massive waste.

Bossasaurus wrote:Idk, I would never spend loads on a model and not do it justice with its paint job. Seems like a massive waste.

You are assuming that dipped models always look terrible? I've seen some great results with dipping. Dipped models can look awful, I agree, but that is true of any painting technique.

I'm not a huge fan of painting, I prefer to game. Plus I have more free money than I do free time...using the dipping method certainly doesn't seem like a "massive waste" to me.

Im not assuming dipped models look awful, just that i can paint way better...

Personally, I find that washes make dipping unnecessary. Maybe not quite as fast, but just as easy and the look better IMO.

That's what I do for my Orks, and it works great.

Mike Noble wrote:Personally, I find that washes make dipping unnecessary. Maybe not quite as fast, but just as easy and the look better IMO.

No no no no... Nothing flows better on the miniature than dipping. It fails at very large surfaces, but you can thin it. The only thing you can't do with dipping is control what shade you put on the miniature. It has to be entirely the same colour shade. I personally hate washes sometimes, mainly when you spend too long messing around with them and they begin to pool and blotch. I never use Cidatel Washes straight out of the pot. The drying time window with dipping is much longer. Also; why go for one rather than the other? Like I said earlier: you can use washing and dipping together. Orks are meant to be dipped!

Why washing the entire model rather than dipping is a bad idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF85RNPriYw

You can't choose one technique over the other.

I've never done it, although I have doused an entire model in wash before.

Deuce11 wrote:



The intense flash took away some depth of color but as you can see, easy peasy with satisfactory results.

Could it be......easy white? I.....I'm speechless. PRE-HERESY WORLD EATERS FOR EVERYONE!
(What color is your dip, it looks black vs brown. I want to copy your technique.)

whitedragon wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:



The intense flash took away some depth of color but as you can see, easy peasy with satisfactory results.

Could it be......easy white? I.....I'm speechless. PRE-HERESY WORLD EATERS FOR EVERYONE!
(What color is your dip, it looks black vs brown. I want to copy your technique.)

The darkest tone is near black and is best for white models. I thinned the dip down with mineral spirits to about 1:3. I used the power drill method and sticky tac to adhere the models to the drill (BE EXTRA CAREFUL!) I think the final product would be even nicer if I sprayed a matte finish on the models but I have heard horror stories and didn't want to screw up my friend's models (since I was too poor to replace them!)

Up close, such as in the pic above, they look alright. But as far as table-top quality goes, it can't get any better for the value and the time.

It seems to me that this is a very heated topic for some but i really dont like haters like Mr. Bossasaurus because as my dad always said if you dont have something nice to say then dont say it. But really Dipping is a great technique. Im using it on my space wolves right now and i love it. So people like Bossasaurus that think they are so cool for being amazing at painting is a little annoying. But i know good art has its place and i love some of the stunning stuff i see here at Dakka daily but for a noob painter like me its great. Plus some day ill get better and start painting beutiful armies because its not like i just dip all day its important to work on brush teqniques so i hand paint my nice characters or my sergeants or sometimes even a few basic marines. But i think this is a great thread and brings up some good friendly debates between gamers and i didnt mean to offend anyone if i did im sorry. You guys are awsome

My wife's experimented with dipping when painting my son's Orks, but she moved on to thinning the dip and painting it on. IMO it looks perfect on Orks (who should almost always look at least somewhat grubby anyway). I use it on woodland style basing (oak woodstain, painted on over a primed mix of wood-ash, sawdust, sand, and grit), and sometimes on Dark Angels vehicles (black ash woodstain well thinned and painted on as a final coat before varnishing). It's just another tool in the toolbox. Whether you actually dip, or paint it on, is irrelevant; some people prefer one method or the other, and you can certainly get good or bad results with either, just as you can with any other kind of painting.

Saying it's "not painting" is about as constructive, interesting, or sensible as saying that you have to use enamel paints on minis instead of acrylics, or you have to use acrylics and never oils, or whatever. At best it's snobbery; at worst it's just nonsense.

Bossasaurus wrote:Im not assuming dipped models look awful, just that i can paint way better...

Zero gallery images.

Amaya put it well Bossasaoras show us some of your pretty models

I dip as well.. My nids aremy looks way better than if i had tried to paint them all by hand. FOr somearmies it works better than others and since nids are supposed to be wet and chitenouse it works perfect.
edit because i read some of the negative posts.
A) I would rather.... See a dipped army than a just primer, grey plastic, or block painted army with no highlights or shading. army any day.
B) Who cares how someone else paints their army.
C)Look at some of the dipped armies presented here. They look pretty good. Better than choice A.
some local gamers have grumped about my dipped nids. MOSLTY because dipping is so easy and fast compared to what they went through to get comparable looking minis. They addmitted to this. Fact is my minis look better than many of their minis do. Its demoralizing when you see that someone spent 10% of the time that you did doing something and their army is comparable if not better looking. Are washes cheating.? Is it cheating to go out and buy forgeworld instead of just sculpting your own minis. ITs hella fast to just go out and buy some forge world Mini-Bling rather than sculpt. I know. I sculpt. Im not very good but it takes practice and i do it because its fun. Is painting 120 gaunts that look more or less the same fun. NO. Its repetative and boring. thats a big reason people dip. It makes what may arguably be the most boring part of the hobby take less time. Sure some of us like to spend hours on our armies painting. MY Deathgaurd are taking me years because i am enjoying spending time customizing and sculpting... painting each one. Would i dip them. NEVER. Do i believe you can dip and acheive the same level of detail and shading that i have with my deathgaurd. No. would i be bummed if i faced an army that had a equivilent look that only took the player a fraction of the time to paint. Yup. Is that why there are so many haters of dipping. Yup.
Haters will hate. its what they do.

a dipped deamon prince. one color of paint on what is painted, then Army Painter Quickshade: Strong tone is brushed on and let dry, then it is givin a spray of testors dull coat. he took a long time to paint up even with the dip method, i cant even begin to fathom taking the time to paint him "For Real"




i entered this Mini into a Painting Competition at a smaller local toureny and won 1st place for "large model"... my dipped Oblits won 1st place in "Squad"
this is a conversation a buddy of mine had with the painting judge.

Buddy "Wow he is gonna be surprised he won, he wasent expecting to do that well."
Judge "Why not? They look really good."
Buddy "Because he dipped them."
Judge "Oh..."

if painting is based purely on looks, the prince is good. if it is based on technique used to paint, i would score low.


now here is the best story i have on dipping...

it was adepticon 2009.... i brought my dipped nids up with me but before i pulled them from the case i chated with the guy setting up stuff next to me.
i pull out my display base and start setting up my bugs. the guy looks over and comments something along the lines of how gakey dipping is, and how its to lazy and crap.

i look over at his display base and say "well at least my army is painted"...... he just walked away after that one.

now i know i will never win best apperance. but i never stood a shot at that anyways.


what it boils down to is this. my love of the hobby is building and converting. while i do enjoy painting, there is no way i could keep my sanity when painting the 30th boy with 90 left to go taking my time and putting effort into it. or for that matter taking my time on the 10 plague marine when i know i have 20 more to go, then 90 boyz, then 80 battle sisters, then 40 IG vets, then my entire Tomb Kings army, then my Empire, Then Khador, Cygnar, Mentoh, Circle, Trools..... well i think you get the point. i can focus on a squad for an army and hammer it out quickly. then to keep from getting board with painting the same thing over and over i can switch it up and hammer out another squad for another army.


my painting skills are also not the great. this is the best painted model i have.

my advice to all dippers is IGNORE THE HATERS,ive been checking out dipping videos etc for a while now and have decided im going to give it a bash on some of my jungle fighters etc.i see dipping as a way to help get armies up to an acceptable standard in a fair amount of time.ive got some mini's painted up that i really put the time into but id love to have a bigger force painted up before i burn myself out.
painters block is a real pain in the arse.

@Envy89 Best post on the thread

@shingouki Friggin hilarious sig!