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Has it occured to anyone that psychic powers are considered " shooting attacks " for the purposes of needing a line of sight , assault/ unit targeting and keeping the model from the ability to fire twice? If jaws hadn't been a shooting attack , the Rune priest would be able to use it, and still fire his plasma pistol.

Has anyone thought that maybe this is why this power is a PSA and not for silly nerf arguments?

Right now everyone is assuming its need of a roll to hit, because it is shorted in the same basket as a PSA
under a very generic question & answer in the latest FAQ



just sayin....

Honestly I wouldn't mind if the overly cheesy BA and SW psychic powers were nerfed, but I have to agree with the notion that this FAQ really changed nothing.

We already KNEW that you have to roll to hit for Psychic shooting attacks unless they have other hitting mechanisms. It says so in the friggin' BRB.

Dave_Fay wrote:Leech Essence Yes

Leech Essence says that it "automatically hits"

nosferatu1001 wrote:Large scale sweeping change brought about by a FAQ: BT "EMperors Champion" answer

Prior to this noone ever thought that a techpriest would be able to lead an army (non-HQ-filling HQ choice)

Not only a FAQ, but a FAQ for one army

This is getting close to what I was referring to, except for one thing: nobody was doing anything illegal before the FAQ. It just made the Champion/Techpriests legal.

Another way youre wrong in the sweeping statement: AP1 vs SMF in 4th edition, answered in the Eldar codex, from memory. Thats EVERY AP1 weapon in EVERY codex changed due to a FAQ

IIRC wasn't this just a strict priority conflict? SMF made all penetrating hits glancing, and AP1 made all glancing hits penetrating. It did apply to many armies, but this was one of those things that was already in conflict previously (people argued about it a lot).

Compare this to something appearing in the FAQ that says "You know all those psychic powers that used to automatically hit? Now you have to roll to hit." It's introducing a completely new concept and a completely new roll that has never been present in any tournament, battle report, or rulebook for many psychic shooting attacks.

It's been argued about whether or not Living Lightning (for example) needs to make rolls to hit, but I've never seen anyone argue that Mind War needs to roll to hit, nor JotWW - before the FAQ came out.

Backfire wrote: unless they have other hitting mechanisms.

That's actually a good way to sum it up. PSA's need to roll to hit, unless they hit automatically, or already have a mechanism through which they establish "hits". Nurgle's Rot, for instance.

Except, if you read the FAQ, it didnt change the rules. Just told everyojne they HAD been playing it wrong, and all along they could have been using just the EC - and others - as sole HQ / Troops / etc.

wyomingfox wrote:

Dave_Fay wrote:Leech Essence Yes

Leech Essence says that it "automatically hits"

Fixed.

Thank you

puma713 wrote:

Backfire wrote: unless they have other hitting mechanisms.

That's actually a good way to sum it up. PSA's need to roll to hit, unless they hit automatically, or already have a mechanism through which they establish "hits". Nurgle's Rot, for instance.

Obviously if it says 'automatically hits' then it automatically hits. To that there should be no argument. However, if the wording is, for example, 'draw a line' and everything under that line gets hit, then you now have to 'roll to hit'. Essentially your determining if that line appeared where you want it to be. Seems to make sense both RAW and fluff wise. After all, every time a weapon is pointed in 40k, you are basically drawing a line towards the target unit and hoping the dice roll says that you hit what you were aiming at.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, if you read the FAQ, it didnt change the rules. Just told everyojne they HAD been playing it wrong, and all along they could have been using just the EC - and others - as sole HQ / Troops / etc.

I think I understand where you're coming from regarding "had been playing it wrong", but I'm more referring to "doing something that was illegal". You're not doing something illegal by not using the EC as your 1 required HQ, for example (or any of those other 'count as HQ/troops but don't take up a FOC slot' units that I can't think of at the moment). Whereas, if JotWW requires a to-hit roll, then everyone who wasn't doing that before was doing something illegal.

The english language is flexible enough that you can say something is automatic without using the word "automatic".

wyomingfox wrote:The english language is flexible enough that you can say something is automatic without using the word "automatic".

We start getting on really shaky ground there. 'They wrote this, but this is what they really ment'. The word automatic is used enough in the rules that I think they use it when they intend to use it. Thats just imho tho

Not in a rules based game. If it doesn't say "automatic" it's not "automatic".

Right or wrong, GW has stated point blank that PSA's MUST have a to hit roll unless their rules state specificly they don't.

Not nessesarily.

"The unit passes all leadership checks."

or

"The unit automatically succeeds at any leadership check they have to take."

Both statements are pretty conclusive that no roll would be needed.

Phiasco II wrote:
Obviously if it says 'automatically hits' then it automatically hits. To that there should be no argument. However, if the wording is, for example, 'draw a line' and everything under that line gets hit, then you now have to 'roll to hit'.

No you don't. You draw a line, that's your "hit". Nowhere does it say that you need to roll to hit so you can draw the line, or roll to hit against models which are already 'hit' by the line. If you 'hit', you have already 'hit'. You don't 'hit' twice, just like you don't 'wound' twice.

I mean, nowhere does it say what exactly you are supposed to "to hit" in Nurgle's Rot or JotWW. These attacks don't have single targets. Shooting rules are very explicit that you pick a single target not locked in close combat, and you may not split fire. Nurgle's Rot, by contrast, CAN be used even in close combat or against models in close combat, and can hit multiple enemy units. How do you resolve that assuming you have to "roll to hit"? Against what? How many times? What happens if you miss? Apparently nothing, since the effect does not seem dependant from any Ballistic skill tests. So "To hit" roll seems irrelevant.

In fact re-reading NR entry, I don't see how anyone can even argue that the power needs any kind of "To hit" roll, since it clearly states that successful Psychic test results to all enemy models suffering a hit.

Backfire wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:
Obviously if it says 'automatically hits' then it automatically hits. To that there should be no argument. However, if the wording is, for example, 'draw a line' and everything under that line gets hit, then you now have to 'roll to hit'.

No you don't. You draw a line, that's your "hit". Nowhere does it say that you need to roll to hit so you can draw the line, or roll to hit against models which are already 'hit' by the line. If you 'hit', you have already 'hit'. You don't 'hit' twice, just like you don't 'wound' twice.

I mean, nowhere does it say what exactly you are supposed to "to hit" in Nurgle's Rot or JotWW. These attacks don't have single targets. Shooting rules are very explicit that you pick a single target not locked in close combat, and you may not split fire. Nurgle's Rot, by contrast, CAN be used even in close combat or against models in close combat, and can hit multiple enemy units. How do you resolve that assuming you have to "roll to hit"? Against what? How many times? What happens if you miss? Apparently nothing, since the effect does not seem dependant from any Ballistic skill tests. So "To hit" roll seems irrelevant.

In fact re-reading NR entry, I don't see how anyone can even argue that the power needs any kind of "To hit" roll, since it clearly states that successful Psychic test results to all enemy models suffering a hit.

Remember that Blood Lance, whick also draws a line needs to roll to hit now. This power is so similar to Jaws of the World Wolf that I can easily see how the ruling should be effecting both the same.

veritechc wrote:

Remember that Blood Lance, whick also draws a line needs to roll to hit now. This power is so similar to Jaws of the World Wolf that I can easily see how the ruling should be effecting both the same.

...which is why the same arguments why JotWW doesn't need roll to hit apply also to Blood Lance, as far as I can see.

Backfire wrote:
No you don't. You draw a line, that's your "hit". Nowhere does it say that you need to roll to hit so you can draw the line, or roll to hit against models which are already 'hit' by the line. If you 'hit', you have already 'hit'. You don't 'hit' twice, just like you don't 'wound' twice.

Pertaining to the bold in the quote: Yes, you draw a line and that is your hit. That is what you are rolling for now.
Pertaining to the italicized in the quote: It does now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously that completely imho

The one bit of this that confuses me is the linguistics of some of the powers, mainly the ones that say '*unfortunate target* suffers a hit'. What doesn't really make sense to me is that you can "suffer a hit" but then not be hit if the roll to hit fails.

On the other hand, this doesn't really affect me... one of my armies *can't* have psykers, and the other *doesn't* have psykers :X

Drachii wrote:
On the other hand, this doesn't really affect me... one of my armies *can't* have psykers, and the other *doesn't* have psykers :X

My psykers have BS2 and wear a 6+ teeshirt... So I am right there will you

Backfire wrote:

Phiasco II wrote:
Obviously if it says 'automatically hits' then it automatically hits. To that there should be no argument. However, if the wording is, for example, 'draw a line' and everything under that line gets hit, then you now have to 'roll to hit'.

No you don't. You draw a line, that's your "hit". Nowhere does it say that you need to roll to hit so you can draw the line, or roll to hit against models which are already 'hit' by the line. If you 'hit', you have already 'hit'. You don't 'hit' twice, just like you don't 'wound' twice.

I mean, nowhere does it say what exactly you are supposed to "to hit" in Nurgle's Rot or JotWW. These attacks don't have single targets. Shooting rules are very explicit that you pick a single target not locked in close combat, and you may not split fire. Nurgle's Rot, by contrast, CAN be used even in close combat or against models in close combat, and can hit multiple enemy units. How do you resolve that assuming you have to "roll to hit"? Against what? How many times? What happens if you miss? Apparently nothing, since the effect does not seem dependant from any Ballistic skill tests. So "To hit" roll seems irrelevant.

"Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e., impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!"

For Nurgles Rot. You need to select a target unit, and check line of sight to it, step one of the shooting process. You roll the D6 range and check range to the target unit, step two. You roll to hit each enemy model within 6", step 3. You then go onto the to wound rolls for models you hit continuing until step 6 remove casualties.
It really is just a matter of following the normal rules for shooting (page 15) when using a PSA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

Drachii wrote:
On the other hand, this doesn't really affect me... one of my armies *can't* have psykers, and the other *doesn't* have psykers :X

My psykers have BS2 and wear a 6+ teeshirt... So I am right there will you

Well... funnily enough of our PSAs: 'Eadbanger - Auto-hit, Frazzled - Auto-hit, Zzap - Auto-hit. They all state they automatically hit

ChrisCP wrote:
For Nurgles Rot. You need to select a target unit, and check line of sight to it, step one of the shooting process. You roll the D6 range and check range to the target unit, step two. You roll to hit each enemy model within 6", step 3. You then go onto the to wound rolls for models you hit continuing until step 6 remove casualties.
It really is just a matter of following the normal rules for shooting (page 15) when using a PSA.

This is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. This interpretation creates a lot of problems. They've already been outline numerous times, so I think I'm done with this thread. Here's just a small list:

1) You said to choose a target. But the power doesn't affect a target unit. It has 'targets', but those are simply those affected. In fact, if you had to roll to hit anything, it would be the psyker, since the psyker is the focus of the power.

2) Secondly, if you have to choose a target, your not allowed to use Nurgle's Rot in close combat, which the power specifically says you can. So, you can use the power, but you cannot target anyone because of the Disallowed Shooting in the Shooting Rules?

3) Thirdly, the power says that everyone within 6" is hit. If someone within 6" didn't take a hit, then the power's rules haven't been followed.

Occam's Razor - all things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. Or, Do not multiply beyond necessity. If you have to create rules (like you have to target a unit that you're never told to target so that a power can work, when it already worked in the first place), then you're doing too much work. The power works like it should if you roll the psychic test, then everyone within 6" takes a 'hit'. If you suddenly have to target, then have to figure out how you target in CC, then figure out how you use a PSA in CC, then figure out who you can assault because your power affected multiple people, you're "multiplying beyond necessity".

puma713 wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
For Nurgles Rot. You need to select a target unit, and check line of sight to it, step one of the shooting process. You roll the D6 range and check range to the target unit, step two. You roll to hit each enemy model within 6", step 3. You then go onto the to wound rolls for models you hit continuing until step 6 remove casualties.
It really is just a matter of following the normal rules for shooting (page 15) when using a PSA.

This is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. This interpretation creates a lot of problems. They've already been outline numerous times, so I think I'm done with this thread. Here's just a small list:

1) You said to choose a target. But the power doesn't affect a target unit. It has 'targets', but those are simply those affected. In fact, if you had to roll to hit anything, it would be the psyker, since the psyker is the focus of the power.

2) Secondly, if you have to choose a target, your not allowed to use Nurgle's Rot in close combat, which the power specifically says you can. So, you can use the power, but you cannot target anyone because of the Disallowed Shooting in the Shooting Rules?

3) Thirdly, the power says that everyone within 6" is hit. If someone within 6" didn't take a hit, then the power's rules haven't been followed.

Occam's Razor - all things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. Or, Do not multiply beyond necessity. If you have to create rules (like you have to target a unit that you're never told to target so that a power can work, when it already worked in the first place), then you're doing too much work. The power works like it should if you roll the psychic test, then everyone within 6" takes a 'hit'. If you suddenly have to target, then have to figure out how you target in CC, then figure out how you use a PSA in CC, then figure out who you can assault because your power affected multiple people, you're "multiplying beyond necessity".

No worries.
1) The rules tell us "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack" Pg 50. I feel this shows nicly, along with the faq that PSA follow the shooting sequence. One will have to elect a target for Rot, as one has to do with regular weapons. If one wish to say it was something like Dooms Spirit Leach, I gues that could be acceptable as well, although obviously a house rule as it's actually a PSA and doesn't say it doesn't need to elect target.

2) The above quote ties into this nicely, Nugles rot, as you say specifically says it can be used while in close combat. This is an example of specific > general. Generally one can't fire in CC, Rots tells us we can.This is similar to permission for a model in base contact with an enemy vehicle to attack in their assault phase, if it hasn't move. One isn't locked in combat, one can't assault during their turn, but the rules allow us to make the attack. Nurgles rot has permission to be used in close combat.

3) The rules will have been followed, becuase one has roll for the hit. This is a clarification for the rulebook to make it clear that a PSA must roll to hit unless it tells one not to. I feel Nugles Rot is most similar to a Vehicle explosion, also a type of ranged attack. And as such feel that only one roll to hit is called for, once the inital target has been hit everyone is hit, a miss is a miss and the power naturally doesn't work - not breaking the rules at all.

Occhams razor indeed, the simpilist or most direct solution, to make the fewest assumtions in our answer.. Following the rules - even a PSA such a rot fits into the shooting sequence as I've shown! Nothing new

I thinks its simple

If the power is a simple shooting attack then roll to hit

If the power has another mechanism for determining whether your hit stated in the power such as its a blast, flamer or has another mechanism for allocating hits i.e. JOTWW, NR or BL then use that and do not roll to hit. this covered on p50 of BRB and has not been errata'd

veritechc wrote:Remember that Blood Lance, whick also draws a line needs to roll to hit now. This power is so similar to Jaws of the World Wolf that I can easily see how the ruling should be effecting both the same.

No, it doesn't.

Corrode wrote:

veritechc wrote:Remember that Blood Lance, whick also draws a line needs to roll to hit now. This power is so similar to Jaws of the World Wolf that I can easily see how the ruling should be effecting both the same.

No, it doesn't.

Pointing to another thread where the exact same argument is taking place is not proof.

Well, until your Rune Priest can start tracing lines on the table, I think you just can't use the power at all.

Well the more I look at it from a different view, I see this,

As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along... models touched by this line must take an Initiative test...

This FAQ was put in to stop players from not requiring LOS, not to require a to-hit roll. And it says that it is 'as a shooting attack', not 'is' like Blood Lance does. Not only that, why would you be required to roll to hit when the Initiative test determines if the models are hit/fall into the void that is the jaws of the world? ??? Are those that oppose suggesting that the rune priest cannot stay focused enough to draw a straight line? I think the Psychic test determines that essentially.

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)
A: ...any psychic power that specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack.

So I think I've reversed my view on this and pretty much convinced myself that JOTWW actually should not need a to-hit roll. And if it does, then GW/or opponent needs to clarify if every model needs a to-hit roll and why.

Blood Lance is even worse because it actually has a complete weapon profile (R,S,AP) and says that it 'is' a PSA. But it also is treated like JOTWW in that all types of models are hit if the line crosses them. For this I'd have to revert back to roll to hit the first model if any. I think more peeps should be discussing Blood Lance than JOTWW. Other than arguing the difference between 'is' and 'as', JOTWW simply does not meet the new FAQ requirement IMHO.

Not sure what the exact wording is for Nurgle's Rot is, but it's something along the lines of: It is a PSA that doesn't have a target but everyone within 6" suffers a hit. I look at this as though it is a blast marker, and the 6" is the radius; anything under/within it is hit.

So I'll likely go with this until GW fixes this gak.
Unless it hits automatically or has another mechanism in which it 'generates' hits, then you must roll to hit. Would this work for now, cause all this is super broken and makes no sense or at least needs clarification. Maybe GW is play testing the public with future 6th ED rules.

ChrisCP wrote:

For Nurgles Rot. You need to select a target unit, and check line of sight to it, step one of the shooting process. You roll the D6 range and check range to the target unit, step two. You roll to hit each enemy model within 6", step 3. You then go onto the to wound rolls for models you hit continuing until step 6 remove casualties.
It really is just a matter of following the normal rules for shooting (page 15) when using a PSA.

This seems unnecessarily complex. If the rule says, 'automatically hit', then it automatically hits. There is no other qualifier then the fact that the affected models are in a 6'' AOE from the model casting Nurgles Rot.

Drawing a line, on the other hand, makes sense that you roll to see if you hit. Does that line appear where you where aiming? Hopefully, now roll your dice to find out. That makes as much sense as any other ranged weapon rolling to see if it hits what it was aimed at.

Phiasco II wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

For Nurgles Rot. You need to select a target unit, and check line of sight to it, step one of the shooting process. You roll the D6 range and check range to the target unit, step two. You roll to hit each enemy model within 6", step 3. You then go onto the to wound rolls for models you hit continuing until step 6 remove casualties.
It really is just a matter of following the normal rules for shooting (page 15) when using a PSA.

This seems unnecessarily complex. If the rule says, 'automatically hit', then it automatically hits. There is no other qualifier then the fact that the affected models are in a 6'' AOE from the model casting Nurgles Rot.

Drawing a line, on the other hand, makes sense that you roll to see if you hit. Does that line appear where you where aiming? Hopefully, now roll your dice to find out. That makes as much sense as any other ranged weapon rolling to see if it hits what it was aimed at.

No it is - I was just presenting it as an option and it's a well out of date quote

ChrisCP wrote:
No worries.
1) The rules tell us "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack" Pg 50. I feel this shows nicly, along with the faq that PSA follow the shooting sequence. One will have to elect a target for Rot, as one has to do with regular weapons. If one wish to say it was something like Dooms Spirit Leach, I gues that could be acceptable as well, although obviously a house rule as it's actually a PSA and doesn't say it doesn't need to elect target.

2) The above quote ties into this nicely, Nugles rot, as you say specifically says it can be used while in close combat. This is an example of specific > general. Generally one can't fire in CC, Rots tells us we can.This is similar to permission for a model in base contact with an enemy vehicle to attack in their assault phase, if it hasn't move. One isn't locked in combat, one can't assault during their turn, but the rules allow us to make the attack. Nurgles rot has permission to be used in close combat.

3) The rules will have been followed, becuase one has roll for the hit. This is a clarification for the rulebook to make it clear that a PSA must roll to hit unless it tells one not to. I feel Nugles Rot is most similar to a Vehicle explosion, also a type of ranged attack. And as such feel that only one roll to hit is called for, once the inital target has been hit everyone is hit, a miss is a miss and the power naturally doesn't work - not breaking the rules at all.

Occhams razor indeed, the simpilist or most direct solution, to make the fewest assumtions in our answer.. Following the rules - even a PSA such a rot fits into the shooting sequence as I've shown! Nothing new

I honestly feel that Nurgle Rot like Jaws and Blood lance require a roll to hit for their inital target - this is part of the shooting sequence and can not be avoided with rules saying otherwise - the carry on effects/hits happen with out more rolls - once the hit has been confirmed.

But if we had a PSA which was Assault 3 it would need 3 rolls (obviously).

'Suffers a hit' = 'automaticly hit'. They mean the same thing.

A 'line' is not a type of ranged waepon, as many of us have stated, and thus any PSA that uses is does not have to roll to hit because of the 'line' mechcanic. The 'line' is how hits are determined, not a to hit roll(s).

As outlined on Pg.50, PSAs must have a profile to need a to hit roll. A 'line' is not a range or a type of ranged weapon. All PSA are asault for moving, shooting, and assaulting perposes, however 'line's fall into a catagory that is codex only. Codex > BRB.

PSA for this perpose means that they cannot use this power and fire a ranged waepon.

Chagear wrote:'Suffers a hit' = 'automaticly hit'. They mean the same thing.

A 'line' is not a type of ranged waepon, as many of us have stated, and thus any PSA that uses is does not have to roll to hit because of the 'line' mechcanic. The 'line' is how hits are determined, not a to hit roll(s).

As outlined on Pg.50, PSAs must have a profile to need a to hit roll. A 'line' is not a range or a type of ranged weapon. All PSA are asault for moving, shooting, and assaulting perposes, however 'line's fall into a catagory that is codex only. Codex > BRB.

PSA for this perpose means that they cannot use this power and fire a ranged waepon.

No they don't. If you're 100% certain please provide a rules quote saying that - anything else is your interpretation.
As things stand I can provide evidence from the SW faq that the 'take 3D6 str3 hits' does not assume automatic hits.
"A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound."


To use a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon, we are shown by the Jaws FAQ that it needs to elect a target model, this is the model against which one rolls to hit - as always a miss, is a miss.