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I know that this topic has already begun in another thread, but thought that it would be better served starting one up for itself.

With the release of the new rule book FAQ, and the update to the psychic shooting attacks, this may have big impacts on JotWW and other powers. I would like for this to be a discussion for both sides to post their arguments without getting into feet stopping “I’m right and you’re not” arguments, since honestly I can see both sides and am conflicted myself.
Now, the BRB says that specific outweighs general. So, is this a case of the Rune Priest powers having specific instructions that are to be used in the place of the general.

BRB FAQ
Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP value) and any psychic power that specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? (p50)
A: Yes.

This to me seems to be pretty easy to understand. But the SW codex description of how some of the powers will work has their own set of rules. Murderous Hurricane for example says that the target units will suffer 3D6 hits at Strength 3 at AP -. Now when reading the new FAQ, it meets the requirement for needing to roll to hit since it has a range, strength and AP value. However it also says that the target unit suffers “hits” and not Type: Assault 3D6, like the rules for living lightning, and other lightning attacks that librarians have. So this to me looks like no role for hits required and is a case of specific overrules general.
On the other while scrutinizing the SW FAQ after reading the new BRB FAQ, I just noticed this:

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or wound its target to affect them? (p37)
A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound.

Now the part that jumped out at me is the “if the power fails to hit or wound.” This would imply that if the power is successfully cast, there is a chance that the power will not even hit. This would reinforce the new BRB FAQ and having to roll to hit.

Now for JotWW, this is going to be a touchy topic. The rules for JotWW say trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24 inches away. The rules spell out the process for casting this power step by step, because it is so different than the standard psychic shooting attack. Is this because the power itself does not cause a wound? I don’t know, maybe. But let’s look at the power if you did have to roll to shoot. Take and pass a psychic test, the power IS now cast. A model is selected as the target, and a line is drawn. The line is a direct representation of the crevice that is the JotWW, and continues on past the target model and possibly over other models behind it. You roll to hit and say you miss. Well now what, the power is successfully cast, the JotWW crevice did occur. And the SW FAQ says “The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!” This by itself says that the models that were not the initial target will in fact be hit automatically. So I say again, if the roll to hit is missed against the initial target, what happens? Is the initial target therefore exempt from having to take his initiative test since the roll to hit has missed him, and all those that just so happens to be behind him get screwed, and are hit anyway? This clearly seems like a case of specific overrules general. Implementing the new FAQ on this power will only benefit the initial target model.

When are the specific rules ever enough to outweigh general? The GW FAQ ruled very clearly that the dreadnought “vehicle” is in fact a scoring unit when used in conjunction with grand strategy. The BRB is very clear that vehicles are not scoring units. The codex was already clear from the get go, but had to be spelled out in the FAQ to finally get people to believe. Specific > General. Now this does not go to say the GW will not go back and change things for the SW and other armies, but as it stands now……

I hope what I have said has come out of my head properly and everyone understands my ramblings. Let the posting commence!!!

It's unfortunate then that orks don't have the same exception. A big mek makes deff dreads troops, but not scoring. Shame really, I'd like to see some real stompa armies.

I am gonna go with the one persons idea that all PSA had to role to hit anyways since they were clearly defined as a ranged weapon. So why now would a FAQ that just restates the point that they are ranged weapons and hence have to roll to hit change how they are played. Otherwise we have been playing Jaws wrong for the last 2 or 3 Years? So if it didn't have to roll to hit before how would this change the fact that it was a ranged weapon and did ignore the rule that it had to roll to hit?
So my basic opinion is that no murderous Hurricane and Jaws do not have to roll to hit until SW has been FAQ-ed and tells us too.
P.S( CURSE YOU MATT WARD, for you have saved us from GK horror only to have us fight brother against brother over the edicts of holy FAQ, I now know the true face of chaos...... you)

Posted in the FAQ thread already but a good thing to post it here in a thread dedicated to said specific topic.

First paragraph of page 50, Psykers;

"These powers vary from race to race and sometimes from individual psykers to another. The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the Codexes, where you will find complete rules for individual powers. The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. EXCEPTIONS to these rules are covered in the Codexes"

MH, Jaws, Thunderclap, and Fury of the Wolf Spirits all have exceptions to the rules of the BRB from not needing to roll to hit to allowing two psychic shooting profiles to be fired as a single psychic shooting attack. Living Lightning does not have any exceptions.

This applies to other codexes that may have psychic shooting attacks that also contain exceptions to the rules of the BRB in regard to being psychic shooting attacks.

Brother Ramses, I give you thee biggest wolf belch right now . HARUMPH. But seriously thank you for clarifying that.

We've always treated JotWW like a template so it doesn't need to hit. If you read the FAQ, GW says they turn their tape messure sideways and use that. That sounds template-ish enough for me.

Oh, I don't play SW and I get owned by about three different SW players 60% of the time so I'm trying to be objective.

I will go on to say tha nowhere in the Space Wolves FAQ does it say that it does not require a roll to hit.
In the Space wolves FAQ we have
Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!

So it's not a template (because it doesn't say anywhere that it is a template) and it targets the first model it hits

In short is it a PSA? Yes
Does it say anywhere that it is exempt from rolling to hit? No
Does it target a model/unit? Yes
Based on the new FAQ is it now clarified that it requires a roll to hit? Yes

So it requires a roll to hit

BR - so where is the exception stating that you do not needd to roll to hit the first model for Jaws?

You keep ducking this point, in every thread where you've been asked.

You draw a line. The models on the line are affected. A roll to hit doesn't come into it.

You draw a line, and target the first model.

All PSAs are required to roll to hit, so you roll to hit that first model.

As stated in the new FAQ, you do need to roll to hit...but only for the first model targeted.

Mind war is like this as well for any eldar players reading this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You draw a line, and target the first model.

All PSAs are required to roll to hit, so you roll to hit that first model.

Exactly, just like vibrocannons.

I guess Nurgle's Rot just got even worse, then. It was an okay power because you can use it while in assault. But now, you've got to hit with it as well? Although it doesn't say it's a PSA, it has a range, a strength and an AP.

It says "all enemy models within 6" suffer a str. 3 hit". Does this mean that you still need to roll to hit? Or did the models suffer a hit? Which is it, because if you're rolling to hit, then "all models within 6"" haven't suffered a hit, which is against the wording of the power.

Using this same logic, you'd have to roll to hit for Warp Rift (which doesn't normally roll since it's a template) and Vortex of Doom (which normally uses the scatter rules since it's a blast weapon).

If the power tells you how to target enemy models (e.g. "draw a line" or "pick an enemy model"), you don't need to roll to hit. Assuming that JotWW works like a Vibro Cannon is just guesswork.

Yakface wrote:This will never get an errata because it isn't something that GW will ever recognize. People online tend to want to read FAQ questions and answers as if they are rules in a rulebook, which they aren't. They are specific questions to game situations with answers given to those questions. Trying to divorce the answer from the context of the question and then read them like stand alone rules will quite often result in ludicrous interpretation.

Interpreting the FAQ to say "Psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit. Always. No exceptions." is silly.

puma713 wrote:I guess Nurgle's Rot just got even worse, then. It was an okay power because you can use it while in assault. But now, you've got to hit with it as well? Although it doesn't say it's a PSA, it has a range, a strength and an AP.

It says "all enemy models within 6" suffer a str. 3 hit". Does this mean that you still need to roll to hit? Or did the models suffer a hit? Which is it, because if you're rolling to hit, then "all models within 6"" haven't suffered a hit, which is against the wording of the power.

You don't need to roll to hit because it says that models suffer a 'hit'. This is the same as all 'template' powers (which use the rules for templates hitting).

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Well that will also include weapon type. Psychic shooting attacks like living lightning, fury of the wolf spirit and smite have a weapon stat line and a weapon type.

-----------------------------Range-----------Strength-------AP---------Type
Living Lightning------Unlimited-------------7--------------5---------Assault D6

Powers like these are shooting attacks, they have a profile like that of a ranged weapon. JowWW does not have a profile like that of a ranged weapon, but it does call it a psychic shooting attack.

Will a psychic shooting attack ever not require a roll to hit? YES

Thunderclap is a prime example. It specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack. Yet it tells you to place a large blast template so that it is touching the Rune Priest. It does not scatter. This is a contradiction to the rules, yet it has a specific set of instructions that override the rules.

Warprift is called a psychic shooting attack, and has a range of template, just like a flamer weapon profile. Do you roll to hit with this? No you do not roll to hit with template.

Now somebody please answer this one. Do all shooting attacks require a roll to hit? No, exception template.

Here is another one that I would like someone to answer. If you have to roll to hit with JotWW and miss, does the line go away? No it doesn't. The power is cast and the line is drawn for 24 inches, a long thin template, not requiring a hit roll. If you rolled and missed the primary target, does it miss all others that are behind the target that under the 24 inch line? No. The SW FAQ states that everyone else just so happens to get hit as it passes through. The FAQ also says that the model that you must have line of sight with is "in effect he is treated as the target model" Meaning the reference point in which to draw your line through and then on to the other models behind.

There are exceptions to the rules, and these are but a few.

merlin96 wrote:
Thunderclap is a prime example. It specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack. Yet it tells you to place a large blast template so that it is touching the Rune Priest. It does not scatter. This is a contradiction to the rules, yet it has a specific set of instructions that override the rules.

Thunderclap never says that it doesn't scatter. It just tells you how to place the blast marker. Since it's a psychic shooting attack, it will then scatter from there.

Telling you to place it in contact with the RP is just like telling you to place a Plasma Cannons marker centered on an enemy. They both still scatter.

The FAQ makes it clear that Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll.

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit

How would it miss if no to-hit roll was made? So there's evidence of your list of powers you're assuming don't roll to-hit needing a to-hit roll.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - so where is the exception stating that you do not needd to roll to hit the first model for Jaws?

You keep ducking this point, in every thread where you've been asked.

Holy crap Nos, the very rule entry for Jaws shows that the power NEVER hits. If it never HITS, how does it need a roll to HIT? Any eligible model that the line TOUCHES takes an Initiative test, not any model that the power HITS.

By all means, please tell me what you are rolling to hit for when you never hit a model with the power?

Xarian wrote:Using this same logic, you'd have to roll to hit for Warp Rift (which doesn't normally roll since it's a template)

The rulebook tells us how to hit with Templates (pg 29). It doesn't make any mention of lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Ramses wrote:
By all means, please tell me what you are rolling to hit for

Because it's a psychic shooting attack. It doesn't have to hit models for that to be true.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You draw a line, and target the first model.

All PSAs are required to roll to hit, so you roll to hit that first model.

So wrong that baby Jesus kittens are crying.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he
is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!

Please Nos, tell me how you determine which model is affected by Jaws and thus the target if you have not already passed your psychic test, placed your line, and AFFECTED the first model in LOS?

You can't pull GW (George W Bush) funky logic and say that the target is affected by the power before the power has affected the target. You can't pull funky logic and tell me that you need to roll to hit AFTER a target has been already affected by the model to determine LOS. The one thing you can do is accept that Jaws is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks and that it never hits a model, only touches models, and therefore never needs a to-hit roll.

DarknessEternal wrote:
The FAQ makes it clear that Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll.

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit

How would it miss if no to-hit roll was made? So there's evidence of your list of powers you're assuming don't roll to-hit needing a to-hit roll.

This is incorrect and based on cherry picking. The power specifically states when you pass the psychic test and target a unit within 18" you cause 3d6 HITS. If you had to roll to hit, they would have made it just like living lightning, and called it an assault 3d6 weapon with str 3 ap -; It would have had a ranged weapon profile, which it does not.

The quote about whether the power is required to hit is an, albeit ridiculous, ruling that when you target a unit with it, regardless of damage done, or even that the unit is in range, the diff/dangerous terrain clause will still always take effect.

Honestly, they should have left the hit part out, and just stated that you didn't have to cause any wounds for the diff/dangerous terrain to take effect.

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You draw a line, and target the first model.

All PSAs are required to roll to hit, so you roll to hit that first model.

So wrong that baby Jesus kittens are crying.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he
is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!

Please Nos, tell me how you determine which model is affected by Jaws and thus the target if you have not already passed your psychic test, placed your line, and AFFECTED the first model in LOS?

You can't pull GW (George W Bush) funky logic and say that the target is affected by the power before the power has affected the target. You can't pull funky logic and tell me that you need to roll to hit AFTER a target has been already affected by the model to determine LOS. The one thing you can do is accept that Jaws is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks and that it never hits a model, only touches models, and therefore never needs a to-hit roll.

You know, the very FAQ you just quoted says the exact opposite of you last sentence. Just saying...

Jidmah wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You draw a line, and target the first model.

All PSAs are required to roll to hit, so you roll to hit that first model.

So wrong that baby Jesus kittens are crying.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he
is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!

Please Nos, tell me how you determine which model is affected by Jaws and thus the target if you have not already passed your psychic test, placed your line, and AFFECTED the first model in LOS?

You can't pull GW (George W Bush) funky logic and say that the target is affected by the power before the power has affected the target. You can't pull funky logic and tell me that you need to roll to hit AFTER a target has been already affected by the model to determine LOS. The one thing you can do is accept that Jaws is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks and that it never hits a model, only touches models, and therefore never needs a to-hit roll.

You know, the very FAQ you just quoted says the exact opposite of you last sentence. Just saying...

Which would fall under the same rules of MH in that the hits are outright granted or do you propose that those specifically granted hit in the FAQ would also now need to be rolled to hit as well?

You do know that the BRB tells you that there will be exceptions to the general psychic shooting attacks rules, which would include the new FAQ that psychic shooting attacks need a to hit roll. Just saying....

I have already stated that MH looks like it has to roll to hit, since the FAQ refers to it missing, thus you must have rolled to hit. And I would play it that way since it looks like it can be argued both ways. That is not that big of an issue to me.

What I am saying is that if people take the simplistic narrow logic that ALL PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACKS must roll to hit, even template powers like flamer must also roll to hit. This is just plain untrue. Apparently GW felt that many people thought that PSA in general was considered by many to be exempt from rolling. This just verifies that you do like weapons. But as stated there are exceptions.

JotWW is a line on the ground. Just like a flamer template you can aim it at a model, but in this case it will cause each model to handle the outcome individually much like dangerous terrain tests. Models that are over the line have to take an initiative test. The first model is only a reference point, "in effect he is treated as the target model." He is not hit and will never suffer a wound like a shooting attack would.

Those advocating that you will have to roll to hit, please post your thoughts on what happens if you fail the hit the first model. Since he is only a reference point on which the line is drawn, and the line WILL extend past the first model, what happens to the others behind it that the line passes through?

Brother Ramses wrote:

Which would fall under the same rules of MH in that the hits are outright granted or do you propose that those specifically granted hit in the FAQ would also now need to be rolled to hit as well?

The attack needs to hit. Then number of "hits" for wound purposes is rolled for and granted. Only 1 "to hit" roll is needed, and it is for the PSA itself.

Brother Ramses wrote:
You do know that the BRB tells you that there will be exceptions to the general psychic shooting attacks rules, which would include the new FAQ that psychic shooting attacks need a to hit roll. Just saying....

Can you address the contradiction instead of dodging? It appears JOTWW does indeed cause hits. So a "to hit" roll seems logical for that PSA, just like the rest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beamo wrote:If you had to roll to hit, they would have made it just like living lightning, and called it an assault 3d6 weapon with str 3 ap -; It would have had a ranged weapon profile, which it does not.

Actually it does not behave like an assault 3d6 weapon because individual hits are not rolled. That is why it is not listed that way. Instead, only 1 "to hit" is required for the PSA. Then 3d6 "hits" are granted. They are not rolled for as an assault 3d6 weapon would be.

Brother Ramses:
1) I agree with you that rolling for JotWW silly, and without the SW FAQ, there would be no argument for it. Hopefully GW will FAQ this one day.
2) However in the SW FAQ there is a target and LoS requirement, so nothing prevents the new BRB FAQ from forcing a to-hit roll from you, even the consequences are clear.
3) Trying to convince you of anything is like filling a barrel full of holes with water, so I won't.

But the issue also is the fact that rolling to hit the first model does not negate the power. The line still continues on, and still passes through other models. If anything only the first model will be have a shot of being 'missed.'

merlin96 wrote:But the issue also is the fact that rolling to hit the first model does not negate the power. The line still continues on, and still passes through other models. If anything only the first model will be have a shot of being 'missed.'

If a straight line misses the first target but still hits what's behind it, doesn't it cease to be a straight line? Unless of course we've got some wierd space/time distortion thing going on here.

If you miss the first, you miss the rest.

merlin96 wrote:But the issue also is the fact that rolling to hit the first model does not negate the power. The line still continues on, and still passes through other models. If anything only the first model will be have a shot of being 'missed.'

If you miss it seems the line did not land where you intended, so why would the other models still be affected?

But where does it say when the line is negated? Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment). Psychic test is past, and the line happens (That just happened!!!). Hope everyone gets my movie quote, lol. Instead of the power affecting a set ratios of x inches, it affects a 24 inch line.