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ChrisCP wrote:
(and your Cutthroat is cool)

Thanks. It was always one of my favorite pictures from Magic, when I played, ages ago. I thought the Dauthi concept was very cool. Sort of like the Losambra from Vampire.

ChrisCP wrote:Yep lots of rolling to hit. I was thinking if it targeted a unit, then one could roll to hit the unit and then each guy <6" take their hit.

S'all good thou, this clarification, affects everyone.

So who can I assault and why? I have to have a target to use a PSA. But Nurgle's Rot doesn't target anyone. So who am I shooting with my psychic shooting attack? How am I allowed to break the rules for shooting by targeting multiple units or not choosing a target at all? If my Sorceror with Nurgle's Rot is attached to a unit, who is the unit allowed to shoot? Anyone? Everyone?

Also, if there are models within 6" that did not take a Str. 3 hit, then I haven't followed the rules for Nurgle's Rot.

Edit: By forcing Nurgle's Rot to roll to hit, the FAQ is actually forcing the Chaos player to break more rules than the one that didn't cause him have to hit in the first place. If I didn't have to roll to hit (which I don't believe I do. I think when something says you suffer a hit, you suffer a hit.), then there are no rules broken, save for rolling to hit per the FAQ. If I -do- have to roll to hit, I break the targeting rules, the Who Can Fire rules and the rules for Nurgle's Rot, specifically. Not to mention the Assault rules that may crop up in the next phase.

Ok , if the rules for the PSA didnt change can anybody tell me why we didnt roll to hit with JAWS in the first place if it actually needed it? And also if JAWS actually misses its target model (first one in the line) I would say per RAW that the other models in the line are still affected as they are obviusly still autohit, even though the main target was missed the line still exist and so does the power effects and so the other moddels are now taking I test for being auto hit even though it missed, because they just happen to get hit on the way through.


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And for MH it cant get much clearer than that, it says takes 3d6 hits, "not if it hits it takes 3d6 hits". It's a clear statement that does not need a roll to hit, because it is clearly ignoring the ability to hit and simply deinfing how much hits the unit takes iif it is cast, and if the target unit is with in range.
Side note- even if the attack misses the target on the off chance you have to roll for it the effect will still come into play because missing the unit does not stop the power from using its special abilities and in this case that would be the whole thing the 3d6 within 18 inches and the murderous hurricane if the target unit meets all the criteria for the effect even after being missed by the PSA.

Wow...this is just silly

@Brother Ramses.... you have the right of it. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink it. If someone honestly thinks a roll to hit is necessary for JotWW then let them live in ignorance. This is dakkadrama at its finest.

Grey elder wrote:
And for MH it cant get much clearer than that, it says takes 3d6 hits, "not if it hits it takes 3d6 hits". It's a clear statement that does not need a roll to hit,

The Space Wolf FAQ says it can miss. How can it miss if it doesn't need to hit?

Bikeninja wrote:Wow...this is just silly

@Brother Ramses.... you have the right of it. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink it. If someone honestly thinks a roll to hit is necessary for JotWW then let them live in ignorance. This is dakkadrama at its finest.

But what if that ignorance causes us be harmed, as for the horse you can insert a tube into his stomach and focrefeed his rump.
Honestly seeing as all PSA needed a roll to hit in the first place since they were all range weapons I do know why people went omg you have to roll now, its because of ignorance and the hope that it will bring down the shining hope that is all PSA that kick Horse Rump.


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DarknessEternal wrote:

Grey elder wrote:
And for MH it cant get much clearer than that, it says takes 3d6 hits, "not if it hits it takes 3d6 hits". It's a clear statement that does not need a roll to hit,

The Space Wolf FAQ says it can miss. How can it miss if it doesn't need to hit?

Maybe if its an auto miss in which they are out of range but seeing as the attack doesnt have a specified range it can never truly miss per RAW it only has rules to be followed like if the unit is within the 18 inch limit. But other wise that attack has no range limit given to it just a range of effect of which you can choose your target. Other wise I can choose a traget across the board and Auto miss and now cause it Dangerous terrain tests.


And where specifically does it say it can miss.?
Cause the only way it can miss is if you interpret the 18Inch selection effect as a rangefor shooting then it can auto miss from being out of range, but if it was in range it would auto-hit the unit within 18 inches.

Grey elder wrote:

Bikeninja wrote:Wow...this is just silly

@Brother Ramses.... you have the right of it. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink it. If someone honestly thinks a roll to hit is necessary for JotWW then let them live in ignorance. This is dakkadrama at its finest.

But what if that ignorance causes us be harmed, as for the horse you can insert a tube into his stomach and focrefeed his rump.
Honestly seeing as all PSA needed a roll to hit in the first place since they were all range weapons I do know why people went omg you have to roll now, its because of ignorance and the hope that it will bring down the shining hope that is all PSA that kick Horse Rump.

Grey, have you even read the first paragraph of page 50 or do all you know how to do is keep trumpeting;

"PSA need to roll to hit!"

PSA need to roll to hit is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks in the BRB. The BRB tells you that you that you can completely ignore that rule, as well as others, if the codex tells you something different.

The SW codex tells you different. You ignore, "PSA need to roll to hit", and instead follow the rules in the SW codex.

puma713 wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
(and your Cutthroat is cool)

Thanks. It was always one of my favorite pictures from Magic, when I played, ages ago. I thought the Dauthi concept was very cool. Sort of like the Losambra from Vampire.

ChrisCP wrote:Yep lots of rolling to hit. I was thinking if it targeted a unit, then one could roll to hit the unit and then each guy <6" take their hit.

S'all good thou, this clarification, affects everyone.

So who can I assault and why? I have to have a target to use a PSA. But Nurgle's Rot doesn't target anyone. So who am I shooting with my psychic shooting attack? How am I allowed to break the rules for shooting by targeting multiple units or not choosing a target at all? If my Sorceror with Nurgle's Rot is attached to a unit, who is the unit allowed to shoot? Anyone? Everyone?

Also, if there are models within 6" that did not take a Str. 3 hit, then I haven't followed the rules for Nurgle's Rot.

Edit: By forcing Nurgle's Rot to roll to hit, the FAQ is actually forcing the Chaos player to break more rules than the one that didn't cause him have to hit in the first place. If I didn't have to roll to hit (which I don't believe I do. I think when something says you suffer a hit, you suffer a hit.), then there are no rules broken, save for rolling to hit per the FAQ. If I -do- have to roll to hit, I break the targeting rules, the Who Can Fire rules and the rules for Nurgle's Rot, specifically. Not to mention the Assault rules that may crop up in the next phase.

See, I think that's what the FAQ is going for.
"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon. So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack." Pg 50

Just follow 'The Shooting Sequence' THE SHOOTING SEQUENCE
1 Check line of sight & pick a target.
2 Check range.
3 Roll to hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired.
4 Roll to wound.
5 Take saving throws.
6 Remove casualties.

............
I was wrong, it'll only need one roll to hit right? The unit it targets, and naturally by following the shooting/assault rules this is the unit one must shoot/assault.
Other units may be hit, just like blasts.

Can anyone tell me why JAWS needs to roll now, if it actaully needed to roll in the first place why did no one catch this?

ChrisCP wrote:
I was wrong, it'll only need one roll to hit right? The unit it targets, and naturally by following the shooting/assault rules this is the unit one must shoot/assault.
Other units may be hit, just like blasts.

I would almost agree with you, if there was a unit to target.

You must target a unit however. If you do not you can't actually fire a weapon.


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There's no direct instruction to as it's step one of the firing process.

Ok it says for JAWS the RP must have line for sight to the first model and that model is treated like the target model for the power so if the power misses the line no longer effects him right making him no longer the first model effected by the line and hence making the roll to hit void right? But for him to be effected by the line does he not first have to take the I test because by your thinking he is not affected by the power unit he is hit, right?

If you don't hit your target you miss.

ChrisCP wrote:If you don't hit your target you miss.

But your evading my point for the rune oreist to first designate a target hence roll the model that is first underneath the line must be effected AKA being forced to take an I test. Making the need to roll redundant but still needed. Sure you miss but the model was still effected and might actually be removed.

puma713 wrote:
Edit: By forcing Nurgle's Rot to roll to hit, the FAQ is actually forcing the Chaos player to break more rules than the one that didn't cause him have to hit in the first place. If I didn't have to roll to hit (which I don't believe I do. I think when something says you suffer a hit, you suffer a hit.), then there are no rules broken, save for rolling to hit per the FAQ. If I -do- have to roll to hit, I break the targeting rules, the Who Can Fire rules and the rules for Nurgle's Rot, specifically. Not to mention the Assault rules that may crop up in the next phase.

You don't roll to hit. You can assault anyone you want, even units which were not effected in any way by Nurgle's rot.

Why? Because Nurgle's rot, thanks to new genius FAQ ruling, is NOT a Psychic shooting attack.

I say since some are arguing that we have to roll to hit the first model, lets just make sure that the model "we really want to get" is the second or third one in the conga-line. That we if we miss, we are still going to get all the rest since the line will still pass on through for the full 24 inches.

Someone please show me where it says that the line that is JotWW goes away or is nullified if it misses the first target. Because I can't find it. It can't miss as long as you passed your psychic test, you have LOS, and he is in range. The FAQ only states that the first model "– in effect he is treated as the target model." All that means is that the line goes through him, and that is it, the model is merely the reference point for which that the power goes, that it it.

If a regular shooting attack weapon called for the player to draw a line the duration of the weapons range and count all models under the said line as affected by the weapon, would that constitute a specific exception to the rules of shooting attacks? I would call that a pretty big exception. How if JotWW not an exception, practically everything about the power is an exception, but it is still a PSA.

Please give step by step examples of how powers do or do not have not have an exception. Not the "it's a PSA must roll to hit," as your only argument. Just because it calls itself a psychic shooting attack, that does not stop the process of evaluating the rest of the psychic power rules. Does it call itself a PSA, does it have a weapon style profile, does the psychic power detail any exceptions to the rules (rules for shooting attacks). THIS MUST BE ASKED. Brother Ramses actually took the time to type down every step and the check that goes along with it, and yet some are saying that he is reading into it. How is what he said reading into anything? The rules in the BRB already stated what Psychic Shooting Attacks where, it also said how to take dangerous terrain test. Yet some people still didn't get it, so the FAQ restated the same thing in a different order to help the others see the light. This is the same thing here. We already knew that JotWW and many other Psychic powers that happen during the shooting phase are indeed Psychic Shooting Attacks, nothing has changed, there is still the exception rule. The FAQ did not redact that part of PSA, did it? Nope, nothing in the Errata or Amendments that remove that.

This is not an abstract argument. Has anyone done computer programming? Everything is done in steps. If this happens, then do this or do that. Everyone is so hung up on the first part they are refusing to look any further.

Also seeing as Lash of Submission has the same wording as MH for picking a unit( pick a unit within X range) and seeing as lash isnt seen as PSA MH now has no specified range in terms of creating a stat line and can now never ever miss hence it deals out auto hits because of the wording .


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Backfire wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Edit: By forcing Nurgle's Rot to roll to hit, the FAQ is actually forcing the Chaos player to break more rules than the one that didn't cause him have to hit in the first place. If I didn't have to roll to hit (which I don't believe I do. I think when something says you suffer a hit, you suffer a hit.), then there are no rules broken, save for rolling to hit per the FAQ. If I -do- have to roll to hit, I break the targeting rules, the Who Can Fire rules and the rules for Nurgle's Rot, specifically. Not to mention the Assault rules that may crop up in the next phase.

You don't roll to hit. You can assault anyone you want, even units which were not effected in any way by Nurgle's rot.

Why? Because Nurgle's rot, thanks to new genius FAQ ruling, is NOT a Psychic shooting attack.

has Ap stat hence is a PSA.

Grey elder wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Why? Because Nurgle's rot, thanks to new genius FAQ ruling, is NOT a Psychic shooting attack.

has Ap stat hence is a PSA.

But it has no range, it has a radius.

That's a range.


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That's a range.

ChrisCP wrote:That's a range.

No, it's not. Range is between shooter and the target. NR has no targets, it merely has a radius within which enemies are affected, if there are any.

That's it's range.

A librarian and a rune priest other psychic powers that have a range that are not carried out in the shooting phase. It has a range as detailed in the FAQ as to what is a PSA. By your use of the PSA definition, these too are a PSA. So now any psychic power that has a range is a PSA and must pass psychic test and roll to hit. After all it does have a range.

Eldritch storm is a PSA using the large blast.

BR - the rules for the SW power tell you to place the blast over the Rune Priest. This does NOT override the step 3 replacement rules for rolling to hit (roll for scatter), it just limits where you can place the blast marker. So you still scatter.

Not that you'll listen. Bucket full of holes indeed.

ChrisCP wrote:That's it's range.

Says where?

And really, wouldn't it make more sense to roll for scatter? I mean, it doesn't make much sense either, but more than rolling for hit...against what? Where? Why?

Honestly, there is simply no way to win in this argument:

-Either Nurgle's Rot is a PSA which requires "To hit" roll, which makes no sense whatsoever.

-Or it is not a PSA, in which case it does not require "To hit" roll, but which opens a whole new case which makes less sense than the plot of Phantom Menace.

Only way which even remotely makes sense is to continue playing it like you did before.

It's the range of the weapon - same as the range of a template is "template"

WHy would you scatter a non-blast weapon?

For the same reason assaults should have a scatter distance:

It makes the game more challenging!

nosferatu1001 wrote:It's the range of the weapon - same as the range of a template is "template"

WHy would you scatter a non-blast weapon?

Why would you roll for a hit with an area weapon?

To see if your power has any effect?

Because the rules tell you that, unless you have an exception, ALL PSAs have to roll to hit?

And the rules dont list an exception, so you still do it.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Grey elder wrote:

Bikeninja wrote:Wow...this is just silly

@Brother Ramses.... you have the right of it. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink it. If someone honestly thinks a roll to hit is necessary for JotWW then let them live in ignorance. This is dakkadrama at its finest.

But what if that ignorance causes us be harmed, as for the horse you can insert a tube into his stomach and focrefeed his rump.
Honestly seeing as all PSA needed a roll to hit in the first place since they were all range weapons I do know why people went omg you have to roll now, its because of ignorance and the hope that it will bring down the shining hope that is all PSA that kick Horse Rump.

Grey, have you even read the first paragraph of page 50 or do all you know how to do is keep trumpeting;

"PSA need to roll to hit!"

PSA need to roll to hit is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks in the BRB. The BRB tells you that you that you can completely ignore that rule, as well as others, if the codex tells you something different.

The SW codex tells you different. You ignore, "PSA need to roll to hit", and instead follow the rules in the SW codex.

No the FAQ is stating that all PSA must roll to hit no excepetions. If you use destructor, JOTW, Blood Lance now you must roll to hit

Ok guys, Hello to everyone.

I am a space wolf player and a competitive one, so you know who's side im with. I dont want to blabber about whos right as i am not so sure myself. I can see the argument from both sides.

Please let me break down some things and everyone think about them very well. We cant find the correct answer to this so we have to work it out and see how things make sense.

First thing. Anyone who is arguing should have a solid case. You shouldn't use the FAQ's questions as solid cases to argue because the answer is important not the question and this is why im saying this


From the wolves FAQ about Murderous hurricane. Because someone made the question about the power needed to hit or wound its target, we cant assume safely that it actually needs rolls to hit. a question should not justify an argument. Murderous hurricane inflicts hits.


About templates and blasts on PSA's.

the BRB has rules for specific weapon types.

Blasts weapons

template weapons.

these rules reffer to these weapons of the according types. Not for psychic shooting attacks that use for conveniency purposes only, the blast or the template marker. thunderclap uses the blast marker, but it is not a "blast weapon" nowhere states that it is a blast weapon. How can it use the blast weapon rules? If it had a profile which stated it as heavy 1 blast for example it would make sense to say it can scatter. But it only uses the blast marker . it is another thing. same goes for any case of the use of a template weapon without the power having a profile which states " template / blast "


As for the major strong case everyone uses. I aknowledge what the point is.

All PSA's need to roll to hit

Make a roll to hit for every psychic shooting attack

murderous hurricane does hits? Ok , but does the power itself hits its target? One roll to hit before anything resolves

Jaws of the world wolf doesnt cause hits? Ok but does the line lands where you intended? One roll to hit before you draw the line.

makes sense.

I would counter argue on this. If all PSA's need a roll to hit before they resolve, does this mean that even Living Lightning needs a roll to hit before anything resolves?

Psychic test taken, roll to hit for the power
roll D6, roll for hits, and finaly roll for wounds. Does this make sense?

In my opinion, the argument that every Psa needs one roll to hit though still an argument, it is a weak one because it will make the game look silly and will create weird situations that everyone could clearly see" that wasnt how this was intended to work"

Do you guys believe that GW effectively intended to add a second " test" after the psychic test
to the whole psycher engine of the game?

Maybe..

I dont think so.

In my opinion psychic powers should work the way the codexes describe them to work.

Some powers state that they hit automatically their target and other extend a line to hit their taget.

Someone thought something unknown to us and made an unknown question which in turn created a need for games workshop to publish this question

Do PSA's need a roll to hit?

Yes.

......... and ruined everyones day.

Of course in Jaws and blood lance doesnt specify that the power automatically hits, because it states that they work in another way than the way you normaly shoot at things.

and yes they are PSA .

Some of us here just want to see powers beeing nerfed because we feel that they are too strong . The game has lots of " too strong" things in every codex.

We should try and find ways to win nonetheless, no matter the odds and see the fun in that instead of trying to find cheesy things and windows in GW's writing, and mistakes to make arguments on and word arguments and break each others balls . I expect a new FAQ very briefly, but we should try to understand a little more ourselves without needing everything to be spelled for us so that we can understand the game.....

Sorry about the very long post.

Wherever the argument ends, I will comply and play the game in every way my opponents feel is just . But if I have to roll to hit for jaws, I expect a roll to hit for everything after that .

Empath wrote:No the FAQ is stating that all PSA must roll to hit no excepetions. If you use destructor, JOTW, Blood Lance now you must roll to hit

That's not what it says. Did you read it?

Q: "Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit?"
A: "Yes"

Nowhere does it say 'no exceptions'. Nowhere does it say 'all psychic shooting attacks'.

-If it has a profile, you use that profile to determine how the weapon is fired (e.g. R: 18", Assault 1 or R: Template, Assault 1 or R: 18", Assault 1, Large Blast)
-If it doesn't have a profile, do what the power says regarding targeting (e.g. "pick one enemy model", or "draw a line")
-If it has a profile but has special rules regarding targeting, follow that instead of using the standard profile for shooting attacks

Go back and re-read the quote that I posted from Yakface. FAQs are not Errata. They are 'soft' answers to specific questions that clarify how the game works. They don't introduce sweeping changes to the game or change the way that psychic powers have worked for 3 editions (e.g. Mind War).

There is a technique called 'reductio ad absurdum' that allows one to invalidate an argument by showing that the argument comes to ridiculous or absurd conclusions.

Argument: All PSAs need to roll to hit. No exceptions.
Conclusion: Template weapons need to roll to hit.
Evaluation: This is absurd. Template weapons have never needed to roll to hit.

Argument: All PSAs need to roll to hit, unless they have a special way of targeting, like Blast or Template.
Conclusion: Blast and Template weapons don't need to roll to hit, but every other PSA does.
Evaluation: Seems okay at first, but see the next argument.

Argument: Blast and Template are the only special ways of targeting.
Conclusion: Other special ways of targeting, such as 'draw a line' or 'pick a model' are not considered special ways of targeting.
Evaluation: This is absurd. They are special ways of targeting by definition.

Argument: All PSAs need to roll to hit, unless they have a special way of targeting, of which there are many.
Conclusion: Most PSAs need to roll to hit, but any PSA that notes how it is targeted (e.g. 'draw a line', 'pick a model') follows those rules instead.
Evaluation: Seems okay.

--

A large proportion of the counter-argument to the above comes from a single psychic power: Murderous Hurricane. Some people argue that it automatically hits because it says 'the affected unit takes X hits', while other people argue that it must roll to hit because it says 'is a psychic shooting attack' and the SW FAQ implies that it can miss.

- Even if the power automatically hits, it can still miss by being out of range. The SW FAQ does not state or imply that it must be due to rolling a failed to-hit roll.
- At the time that the codex was written, the only special rules for psychic shooting attacks were that they are fired in place of a ranged weapon during the shooting phase.
- There are plenty of other psychic shooting attacks that have always been treated to automatically hit (i.e. a precedence). For example, Mind War.
- The wording of the power says 'affected unit', not 'hit unit', or 'if the power hits' or anything similar.

--

Final conclusion: If the power doesn't tell you how to determine who it hits (by being Blast, Template, or having other special targeting rules), roll to hit - possibly multiple times, if the power has a profile that specifies that it shoots multiple times. Otherwise, do what the power says. If it says 'choose an enemy unit within X inches; that unit suffers Y hits', you don't need to roll to hit. If it says 'draw a line', you don't need to roll to hit. If it says 'psychic shooting attack with 18" range, S of 8 and AP of 4', then you need to roll to hit.

This is the way that the game has been played for years. A 10-word clarification in a FAQ isn't going to come in and tell us that we've been doing it wrong all along.