Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wrong....

Bikeninja - please see the tenets of YMDC, which your post contravenes.

ChrisCP wrote:
3) The rules will have been followed, becuase one has roll for the hit. This is a clarification for the rulebook to make it clear that a PSA must roll to hit unless it tells one not to. I feel Nugles Rot is most similar to a Vehicle explosion, also a type of ranged attack.

...which, as you may know, does not roll to hit.

ChrisCP wrote:
And as such feel that only one roll to hit is called for, once the inital target has been hit everyone is hit, a miss is a miss and the power naturally doesn't work - not breaking the rules at all.

Except of course there is no passage in rules, or no example in other psychic powers why the sequence should work like this. Why do you assume "power naturally doesn't work"? MH does "work" even if it "misses" (whatever the "miss" means).

ChrisCP wrote:
Occhams razor indeed, the simpilist or most direct solution, to make the fewest assumtions in our answer..

That's right. And simplest assumption is that Nurgle's Rot does not roll to hit, because the power says that it produces automatic hits. And it is dubious whether it even is a PSA, as it doesn't have a real "weapon profile".

Honestly, if it says "hits", then it "hits". You might just as well argue that you need to roll to wound with Mind War. Because the Mind War does not say it AUTOMATICALLY wounds, does it?

Adressing your point in order here.

Yes, and if you consider the rest of the quote you used I go into the explanation of how the alternate method is to roll to hit for each model that is with-in range, this however doesn't follow to rules for shhoting ranged weapons, whin needs a to hit roll. Think of nurgles rot like a gun that has inflicts a str3 and has d6 range, one would not say "I can fire my gun and hit hits automatically." one would have to follow the shooting sequence which involves electing a target and rolling to hit. The key difference beign that a vehicular explosion does not count as firing a ranged weapon, as such it doesn't follow the stages for it and would not do anything when it come to the wounding process, we still must follow the sequence laid out in the shooting rules -otherwise the hit would not [u]do , has no FAQ clarifying that it indeed roll to hit - it may well be that one need to roll to hit for it after all.


"Psychic powers that take the form of shooting attacks are very common. Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise)." Page 50
In case you are actually unsure of what 'missing' means in the context of 40K "Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically – his shots simply do not reach." Page 17, or, "3 Roll to hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. The model’s BS determines what score they must equal or beat to hit their target." Page 15
As to assuming a power 'naturally works' it would be when it's not a PSA (something, Nurgles rot, tells us it is), or that it says it automatically hits, such as the three ork PSA which take the care to include this line as otherwise they would need to roll to hit.


Again, Nurgles states (if pumas quote is accurate) that "A psyker may use this power in the Shooting Phase instead of using another ranged weapon" meaning it's a ranged weapon or PSA, if it said just 'instead of' then sure not a PSA, as things stand, it can inflict hits, has a range, a strength, an AP and tells us that it is used in place of another ranged weapon, that can be used in close combat.
The simpilst assumtion is that it follows the shooting sequence laid out for alll shooting attacks, and it does not say that it automatically hit, PSA such as Zzap and Frazzled have written in their rules text that they automatically hit.

One doesn't need to roll to wound with Mindwar... it clearly states the target loses a wound... and otherwise one wouldn't be able to wound with mindwar - in case you are unsure what losing a wound entails " in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table" Page 24 is the first step, and page 26 explitily adress multi-wound models 'losing one wound' - "When such a multiple-wound model suffers an unsaved wound, it loses one Wound from its profile."

I'm not sure what you're trying to attempt here. Each point you have raise I had already addressed in this thread and others. Things like

And it is dubious whether it even is a PSA,

when Nurgles rot states that it's used in place of another ranged weapon has a range Str and AP, the wielder has a BS these are all the things one need to follow the shooting sequence as an attacking player. As the FAQ clarifies;
"Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP value) and any psychic power that specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack."
"Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? (p50)
A: Yes."


If you choose in your plaing group to not rule Nurgles Rot as a PSA - then that's fine, your guys decision. Just that this conversation is based on it being a PSA, based on what it's ules say. And naturally.. if one was to assuem it wasn't a PSA, then it wouldn't roll to hit would it?

With Nurgle’s Rot though it clearly states that all models within 6" SUFFER a Strength 3 hit with no AP.

The more general rule that was given in the FAQ that PSA require a roll to hit would not override the more specific rule from the codex here.

If I was to roll to hit and missed any models in range, then each model didn't suffer a strength 3 hit and I did not follow the directions for the psychic power correctly.

I would agree that you would need to roll to hit if the power just stated that Nurgle’s Rot was a PSA that affected all models within 6" and had strength of 3 with no AP, that is not the case though. It says that all models are hit within 6" and logically no further hit roll would be required.

The FAQ just reaffirms the fact that PSAs like Bolt of Change don't automatically hit just because you passed the Psychic Check.

Hmm. It seems that JoWW would require a roll to hit as it is a Psychic Shooting Attack and does not have a provision to ignore it. However, the roll would be irrelevant as there is no profile and the rule states that any model under the line must test, not any model hit. Simplified, that would mean the specific rules for resolution supercede the base rules.

The SW FAQ addresses LOS and dosn't address the hit mechanism. The model being the target model means nothing in context of whether the power requires any sort of roll to be affected.

Agreed Jmurgh, as members have already clearly charted out each step within the shooting phase for JoWW a few pages back you would not need to roll to hit. And even if you did roll to hit the ending result would not change the outcome of the effects of the power.

All you need is LOS to the first target to trace the 24" line. Once thats done all models that it touches take a the initiative test or be removed from play.

I cannot for the life of me understand how something that has rules for drawing a line and stating that everything hit by that line has to take an initiative test now has to roll to hit as well. Just does not make sense.

@nosferatu1001 Yeah sorry, just frustrated.

To see if the line goes where you want it to?

jmurph wrote:Hmm. It seems that JoWW would require a roll to hit as it is a Psychic Shooting Attack and does not have a provision to ignore it. However, the roll would be irrelevant as there is no profile and the rule states that any model under the line must test, not any model hit. Simplified, that would mean the specific rules for resolution supercede the base rules.

The SW FAQ addresses LOS and dosn't address the hit mechanism. The model being the target model means nothing in context of whether the power requires any sort of roll to be affected.

Noir Eternal wrote:Agreed Jmurgh, as members have already clearly charted out each step within the shooting phase for JoWW a few pages back you would not need to roll to hit. And even if you did roll to hit the ending result would not change the outcome of the effects of the power.

All you need is LOS to the first target to trace the 24" line. Once thats done all models that it touches take a the initiative test or be removed from play.

To actually declare the useage of JoTWW one needs to elect a target, it is against this target one must roll to hit. JotWW does not contain text saying 'automatically hits'. Look at bloodboil on page 63 of blood angels, it states "this is a PSA that hits automatically...", Fear of Darkness "this is a PSA that hits automatically...", Shakle soul "this is a PSA that hits automatically...", but, The Blood Lance "this power is a PSA." and Smite "this is a PSA that has the following profile."
Now from Codex: Space Marines: Machine curse "This power is a PSA. If TMC hits...", The Avenger "This power is is a psychic shooting attack and has", Vortex of Doom "This power is a psychic shooting attack and has the following profile: Blast...If when using this power the Librarian fails his Psychic test, place the Vortex of Doom blast marker on the Librarian - in this case the template (Sic: Marker) will not scatter."

These show that for a PSA to automatically hit, or for a PSA that takes the form of a marker that they scatter unless otherwise specified. PSAs due to taking the form of ranged attacks must roll to hit unless otherwise specified.

ChrisCP: You miss the point. The instructions state that the models *under the line* must take an I test, not models hit by the power. So the hit roll is irrelevant- roll to hit if you like, but the instructions say that any model under the line tests. Models not hit by roll would still be affected similar to at least one other Space Wolf psychic power. And models hit by roll do not suffer any additional effect.

And don't forget that Blood Lance is from the same Codex that brought us the impressively poorly worded Sanguine Sword, the power that had no duration.

When it comes down to it I really don't think I care if it needs a roll to hit or not. But those who are claiming that the FAQ holds the power of law over all creation really need to go back a couple of pages and read GW's own definition of F-A-Q. ( I'd link the post but I'm not sure exactly how to do that on the iPad.)

So if your group or TO decides to roll to hit, cool. But you better go through each and every current Codex to see how that will affect those powers. Particularly in tournament situations. Because some of these so called PSAs are gonna get weird.

Sanguinary Dan wrote: But those who are claiming that the FAQ holds the power of law over all creation really need to go back a couple of pages and read GW's own definition of F-A-Q.

You may want to go back a page and read DakkaDakka's definition of official sources of information.

Check number 2.

/shrug

First off, with Jaws you are never electing a target. Treating a model as a target for shooting purposes is a slightly different thing. If GW wanted to eratta the wording of the PSA in the last SW FAQ they would have done so. The power is treating a model as a taget to control some elements of the game.

Secondly, all these powers you mention have a specific way they work and they need a roll to hit their target, or they dont cause their codex states so, or they have a mechanic that auto hits their targets. There is no need for clarification that jaws autohits because it is clear enough from the way the power works. Psychic powers need a roll to hit because they are assumed to be weapons but theyre not, even when some of them even have a weapon profile. Living Lightning has a weapon profile. Is it a weapon? No, IT IS TREATED AS A RANGED WEAPON ( page 50 of BRB- ( using a psa counts as firing a ranged weapon) . As the Latest FAQ states , LL as a psychic shooting attack needs a roll to hit. This is what the FAQ intentds to make clear, because maybe for a small number of players it wasn't clear.Just Because for all of us this has always been clear, we are now trying to find the meaning of this FAQ. I still may be wrong, but I am trying to think clear here. By reading the wording of how Jaws works, the way the power causes " hits" is perfectly clear . I believe that if a roll to hit would be needed , it would have been stated that it does. " Roll to hit as normal and if the power hits, draw a line.... etc "

The roll is needed because once electing a target one must roll to hit. Saying these powers do not roll to hit is saying every blast-marker PSA doesn't scatter.

There are examples, a few of which have been quoted of the course of this thread, Marker-PSAs specifically mentiong that it 'doesn't scatter as normal', while other do not have the text. Again with Assault-PSAs, examples with "hits automactially", and powers without this text.

The Faq has now clarified that PSA do roll to hit, it's removed the only line of actual argument based of rules which was "Using a psychic shooting attack
counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon,
unless specified otherwise)... the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack." Pg 50, did not mean PSA attacks had to roll to hit. This interpretation was already inhrently silly as there are the afformentioned Assault-PSAs that state they 'hit automatically' and Blast-PSA that 'do not scatter' pointless text if other powers never rolled to hit.

l

By saying these powers do not roll to hit is not the same as saying that blast markers Psa Dont scatter. Again I think you are puting different things under the same basket. Blast marker weapons scatter because the BRB says that blast weapons scatter. It is a universal game rule for every weapon of the Blast type. But there are powers that use the blast marker whithout having the type " blast" profile such as the Thunderclap. you cant put it in the same category as blast weapons just because it uses the blast marker, do you? Thunderclap doesnt say to use the blast rules to see which models are hit or how to use it . It clearly says that every model under the blast takes a hit and you cant put it anywhere you would like, it has a special way it lands. See how different it is from normal blast weapons? .

I dont understand your example. How can it scatter if it is not a blast weapon? And why would it need a roll to hit when it clearly states how it causes hits?


Somewhat the same we re arguing about jaws here.

Faq doesnt come out to create changes on a game, it comes to answer some kids question about something. The question could be relevant or it could be just to clarify somesmall writing in the BRB such as
when you fire a shooting attack, it may not be like a weapon, but you need to know if it hits a target and so as you are treating it as a weapon, you roll to hit. Psychic shooting attacks normally need a roll to hit. But definately not always.

pitfighter wrote:Faq doesnt come out to create changes on a game

Really?

FAQ:

Q: If a Tyranid unit takes a Mycetic Spore, can an
Independent Character join the brood before
deployment (and hence deep strike in with the brood)?
A: No.



Editing to add:
I fully understand the sideways half-response that was, but it makes more sense than the position responded to.

kirsanth wrote:

Sanguinary Dan wrote: But those who are claiming that the FAQ holds the power of law over all creation really need to go back a couple of pages and read GW's own definition of F-A-Q.

You may want to go back a page and read DakkaDakka's definition of official sources of information.

Check number 2.

/shrug

Even though GW says otherwise? Really? Isn't the term FAQ used in that post to mean anything the company makes available to answer questions? GW says only errata changes the game's rules, and that FAQs merely describe how some of them play it at home. It's up to you wether or not you use that answer.

I don't really care. I stopped using the power when targets gained cover saves from it as if it were a dumb bullet, and not a pseudo-sentient bolt of energy able to ignore friendlies and CC scrums, but I don't want people to think that FAQ=Truth PERIOD End of Debate.

Sanguinary Dan wrote:I don't want people to think that FAQ=Truth PERIOD End of Debate.

You can play however you like. But for discussion, FAQ=Truth PERIOD End of Debate.

If you would prefer to discuss how people play despite FAQ=Truth PERIOD End of Debate, that is fine too. But acknowledge it.

pitfighter wrote: Blast marker weapons scatter because the BRB says that blast weapons scatter.

As far as this forum is concerned, the BRB also now says all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit.

Really a lot of people on this forum seem to be disagreeing on that point

I notice you adding "ALL" to the FAQ statement about PSA's there is no "ALL" in the FAQ wording.

If it stated ALL PSA's must roll to hit no exceptions that would be different but it does not.

Most of the guys I play with (me included) have been playing since rogue trader. They, and I, have gotten a good chuckle over this one. Mostly laughing at me because I have let this frustrate me to no end. As I said before, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I know this, at no time will I ever roll to hit for JotWW. Just not gonna happen.

I have a lot of respect for INAT and the work done on it. I pray they keep their brains and rule correctly. I would hate to have walk out of a game at Adepticon next year because they thought this was how it should be ruled. Try this type of silliness down here and you won't have alot of people to play with.

good luck.

Bikeninja wrote:I would hate to have walk out of a game at Adepticon next year because they thought this was how it should be ruled. Try this type of silliness down here and you have alot of people to play with.

good luck.

this makes you a poor sport if you cannot play in an event and accept a ruling you disagree with. Threatining a temper tantrum or to quit when a ruling doesn't go your way doesn't make you right.

Bikeninja - if you feel that strongly then dont even go to Adepticon, if they rule in a way you dont like

Far more mature a response than making a scene.

As far as JOTWW goes, what would you roll to hit against? Because, unless I'm missing something after reading the 5th edition SW codex, JOTWW doesn't have to target anything, it's just drawing a line ending 24" away.

The FAQ states that the first model you would touch is the target

Sorry have say you have lost me on this one Nosferatu i wanted to believe you but have been come round to the point of view
For following reasons
The instructions state that the models *under the line* must take an I test, not models hit by the power. So the hit roll is irrelevant- roll to hit if you like, but the instructions say that any model under the line tests. Models not hit by roll would still be affected similar to at least one other Space Wolf psychic power. And models hit by roll do not suffer any additional effect.

It's like no one else believes there isn't a precedent for a weapon that shoots a line and has to roll to hit.

DarknessEternal wrote:It's like no one else believes there isn't a precedent for a weapon that shoots a line and has to roll to hit.

You are running up against a basic human truth: people hate to change.

The FAQ changed the way the game plays and people hate that. Personally I will await the final decision from GW or sat a Tournament Organizer for a ruling.

n0t with a I test