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Brother Ramses wrote:

Lets break this down;

The FAQ tells you that psychic shooting attacks need to hit rolls.

The BRB also tells you that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes. The new FAQ is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. If an exception to that general rule exists, it will be in the codexes.

Do we agree on this? If not, then there is nothing else to say because then you are just covering your ears and running around in circles screaming,

"PSA REQUIRE TO HIT ROLLS!!"

Over and over again.

I will ignore your childish taunt in the interest of getting somewhere. No that is not my stance, if you read what I post I have said several times that there are exceptions, JOTWW and MH just aren't two of them.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Now, the rule for JAWS tells you to pass a psychic test and place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest. That is it. You are not directed to take any other action to determine where the line lands. You are given a condition that must be met (pass a psychic test) and action to take when the condition is met (place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest).

Not once have I ever mentioned or said that JAWS is a template weapon btw.

Merlin has compared it to a template weapon, and you have backed him up. If you don't think it is a template weapon, stop making statements that indicate that. Even if you do not explicitly state it, comparing it to a flamer, or assuming it auto hits, is treating it as a template.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Now, how does Jaws affect a model? By touching it. That is right there in the rules as well. The line is placed as specifically directed by the rule (an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks), the first model it affects must be within LoS (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack), and any model it touches must take an initiative test (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack).

This is correct, AFTER the attack lands on a to hit roll. Because this is a PSA (self described) the "to hit" step does not need to be stated. It is implied by the BRB and would require a specific clause to override that.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Now, other then trying time and time again to tell me that JAWS is a PSA so must roll to hit, now that I have shown you exactly how it is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, explain how it is NOT a codex exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack.

You have not shown that it is an exception. You have simply described how it works and left out a step that you don't like.

Asking me to prove it is NOT an exception is futile. Proving a negative is not what is required here. You have failed to prove it is an exception.

The only thing I can see that would implicitly make it auto hit is the argument that you think it is a template weapon, but you have already conceded that you don't think that, right?

Hahahahahaha!

I just listed every codex exception to the general rule including the additional one about targeting!

What are you rolling to hit? To place the line? The rule already tells you how to place the line. That is the codex exception to the general rule. As was pointed out, how are you rolling to hit aka place the line, without a target?

You: "Ok, I am rolling to hit."

Opponent: "Hit what?"

I agreed with Merlin on the points he made regarding codex exceptions to the rule, but missed that on one part he was still trying to include Jaws as a template weapon. Honest mistake of which I do not agree with at all.

And the very rule tells you that what the line touches is affected, that what the lines touches takes an initiative test. That is the magical exception that you seem to gloss over every time as to why you do not roll to hit.

I have included every step that the rules compel you to complete the action per the BRB and the codex. You refuse to acknowledge that a codex exception to rolling to hit exists in the JAWS and MH rule and arbitrarily insert a to hit roll wherever it pleases you.

If a to hit roll was required of MH and JAWS to work, then how did they ever work before this FAQ came out? Oh yea, because they are codex exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. They have their own set of rules that allow them to work outside the general parameters of psychic shooting attacks whereas a rule like Living Lightning, which follows all the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, would NOT work if you did not roll to hit per the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Page 50, Pskers and this above last paragraph are brilliant.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Thunderclap never says that it doesn't scatter.

It does not say it should scatter either. It is not a "blast weapon". And the only target mentioned is Rune Priest himself.

DarknessEternal wrote:
The FAQ makes it clear that Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll.

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit

How would it miss if no to-hit roll was made? So there's evidence of your list of powers you're assuming don't roll to-hit needing a to-hit roll.

You don't roll twice to hit with a weapon, do you? If MH requires "to hit" roll, then it means that you roll to hit with more hits. You only make to hit test ONCE, and since MH causes automatic hits, the "to hit" test is passed, you don't roll to hit, QED.

Ok BR, I don't know if you have comprehension issues or are just very good at reading what you want to read. Play it how you want, take it to a tourney, and let the TO sort you out. Someone already compared convincing you to filling a barrel with holes in it with water... I should have listened.

At the end of they day, I don't agree that you have proven any exception, and I have given my reasons. Both spells require a "to hit" roll until proven otherwise. That hit is resolved before the spell can touch it's target, and thus the effects do not exempt the spell from having to hit.

And lastly, on a personal note, grow up. Accusing me of adding rolls wherever I see fit? You are starting to sound like Nos on the scout shunt argument, and I should think you wouldn't want that. I clearly have a reason, and have explained it, even if you disagree with it. Stop the Ad Hominem and Strawman kiddies, address the issues presented.

Choboking wrote:
At the end of they day, I don't agree that you have proven any exception, and I have given my reasons. Both spells require a "to hit" roll until proven otherwise.

We just did.

I'm sorry, do you think putting QED at the end of a sentence means you've proven it? I'm going now, this is quite frustrating.

Choboking wrote:I'm sorry, do you think putting QED at the end of a sentence means you've proven it? I'm going now, this is quite frustrating.

No, I think me proving the case proves it.

Okay we are making some progress.

We have now established that there are exceptions.

Now I did, and have made references to a template for a very specific reason. Is there any weapon or weapon type that does not require you to roll to hit, and thus effects all models that fall under the template were it is placed? There is, it is a flamer style template. This is an exception to the roll to hit that is customary for shooting attacks. Now, can anyone tell me of any weapon or weapon type that will affect ALL models that fall under a specific distance? I can think of none, but there may be some (and I doubt that they require you to roll to hit). A shooting attack does one of two things, A: It hits or misses dependent on the dice roll. B: all models under the template are hit. That is why I have been using template as an example. You do not roll to hit then place the template/marker/line to then see who it covers. The use of the set distance on psychic powers like this, that affect all models that pass over, through, or hit by, is an exception to the rules of shooting.

Do these rules say, "If the target model is hit, continue on with the 24 inch line...."? No, because that is not how the rules state it will work.

Also on another note, if a unit is shooting another unit with bolters, do you roll to see if you hit the unit, then roll again to see how many shots hit the unit? This is how you are interpreting this. If the FAQ had an entry that said all shooting attacks need to roll to hit, does that mean you need to roll to hit twice? No, it is stating the same thing. That is how some of you are arguing this must roll to hit issue.

Backfire wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Thunderclap never says that it doesn't scatter.

It does not say it should scatter either. It is not a "blast weapon". And the only target mentioned is Rune Priest himself.

It doesn't need to say it scatters. It needs to say that it DOES NOT scatter. Any shooting attack using either blast marker scatters.

Backfire wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
The FAQ makes it clear that Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll.

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit

How would it miss if no to-hit roll was made? So there's evidence of your list of powers you're assuming don't roll to-hit needing a to-hit roll.

You don't roll twice to hit with a weapon, do you? If MH requires "to hit" roll, then it means that you roll to hit with more hits. You only make to hit test ONCE, and since MH causes automatic hits, the "to hit" test is passed, you don't roll to hit, QED.

That's just chaotic gibberish. Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll as a psychic shooting attack. If it hits, it generates some effects. The effects are listed in the power.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Backfire wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Thunderclap never says that it doesn't scatter.

It does not say it should scatter either. It is not a "blast weapon". And the only target mentioned is Rune Priest himself.

It doesn't need to say it scatters. It needs to say that it DOES NOT scatter. Any shooting attack using either blast marker scatters.

Sez where?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Backfire wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
The FAQ makes it clear that Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll.

Space Wolves FAQ wrote:Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit

How would it miss if no to-hit roll was made? So there's evidence of your list of powers you're assuming don't roll to-hit needing a to-hit roll.

You don't roll twice to hit with a weapon, do you? If MH requires "to hit" roll, then it means that you roll to hit with more hits. You only make to hit test ONCE, and since MH causes automatic hits, the "to hit" test is passed, you don't roll to hit, QED.

That's just chaotic gibberish. Murderous Hurricane requires a to-hit roll as a psychic shooting attack.

By same logic, Thunderclap also requires "to hit" roll. Even though it makes absolutely no sense.

Once again: if you hit, you hit. You get automatic hits, you don't need to roll to hit.

It doesn't get any more simpler, really.

I would love for GW to rule that Jaws of the World Wolf scatters when it misses. Not that is a awesome result, lol.

Looks like GW will have to FAQ their FAQed up FAQ.

Darkness, you are falling into the same tunnel vision trap that many are doing with the new FAQ, however with the large blast marker.

Exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks are in the codexes.

So the general rule for large blast markers are they scatter, however the codex rule is that it is placed so it is touching the rune priest. That is the codex exception to the general rule.

While I can see both sides of the argument here, I think the strongest argument against JoTWW needing to hit is the Eldar Vibrocannon, which works almost exactly the same way as JOTWW. You don't pick a target, you draw a line from the individual firing, but you do need to roll to hit.

"Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP value) and any psychic power that specifically states that it is a psychic shooting attack."

That's a yes for JotWW


"Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? (p50)
A: Yes."

JotWW is a PSA, so still a yes....

Seriously like abunch of parrots around here with the new FAQ despite the clear cut rule of exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks being in the codexes. Going to try this one last time showing examples of psychic shooting attacks that follow the general rules for psychic shooting attacks and those that are codex exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Per the BRB, the Shooting Sequence is as follows:

1. Check line of sight & pick a target.
2. Check range.
3. Roll to hit.
4. Roll to wound.
5. Take Saving throws.
6. Remove casualties.

Now psychic shooting attacks tell us that it counts as firing a ranged weapon so it will follow the above sequence unless their is an exception to those rules in the codex.

Living Lightning:

1. No exception. You check LoS and pick a target.
2. No exception. Range is checked: unlimited.
3. No exception. You roll to hit as many shots as determined by the a d6.
4. No exception. You roll to wound for each shot that hit.
5. No exception. For each wound suffered a save can be taken if allowed.
6. No exception. Remove casualties for any failed saves.

Pretty straight forward for a psychic shooting attack that follows the general rules for a psychic shooting attack. It is a psychic shooting attack, that does not have any codex exceptions for rolling to hit, so therefore per the new BRB faq, you roll to hit. Onto something just a tiny bit different.

Murderous Hurricane

1. No exception.
2. No exception.
3. Exception! Target unit takes 3d6 Str 3 AP - hits.
4. No exception.
5. No exception.
6. No exception.

So we see that when it comes to step 3, MH has a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. Onto something more complex.

Thunderclap

1. Exception! Place the large blast template so it touching the rune priest.
2. No exception.
3. Exception! Any enemy model touched by the marker takes a Str 3 hit with an AP of 5.
4. No exception.
5. No exception.
6. No exception.

Thunderclap has exceptions in step 1 and 3. Now for one that is really complex.

Jaws of the World Wolf

1. Exception! LoS and target is determined by which is the first model the power will affect after placing a 24" line along the board.
2. Exception! Range is based upon the determination of which model will be first affected after placing the 24" line along the table and thus is the target model.
3. Exception! Specific unit types touched by the placement of the 24" line must take an Initiative test.
4. Exception! No wounds are caused.
5. Exception! No wounds are caused thus there are no wounds to save against.
6. Exception! No unsaved wounds are created by not taking any wounds and failing saves. Instead models are removed fromp play.

JotWW is almost completely excluded from the general rules for psychic shooting attacks due to codex exceptions.

These are the merits of my argument, using the BRB, the codex, and the FAQ as they are written. If you want to argue yiur point come with more then just reciting the new FAQ over and over. The basis of my argument dispells that tactic right away since it is based on the first paragraph of page 50, Psykers.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Backfire wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Thunderclap never says that it doesn't scatter.

It does not say it should scatter either. It is not a "blast weapon". And the only target mentioned is Rune Priest himself.

It doesn't need to say it scatters. It needs to say that it DOES NOT scatter. Any shooting attack using either blast marker scatters.

Can you please find the page in the BRB that says that? All I see is where it says blast weapons scatter (as far as I know, there are no PSAs with the Blast rule).

I read it as ChrisCP states.

I don't have a beef with JotWW needing a to-hit roll.

My issue (sorry if someone already addressed this) is how many to hit rolls do you make? If the line runs through 8 models, is it 8 rolls? What about the SW FAQ that says the first model for all intents and purposes is the target. Does that mean all or nothing? If I miss the target, no one is affected?

Target model, one roll to hit, you must roll to hit with a PSA unless one is told one doesn't have to/automatic hit.

An example of a PSA which does not require a roll to hit is in the ork 'Dex - Zzap pg 37 - it says "Choose an enemy unit within LoS. If in range the target unit is automatically hit...".

The way I see it, the direction is determined, then the first model along that line is the target, and, I guess, you roll to hit against that one model...everyone else along the line does not need a to-hit roll, as the only "target" is the first model.

I just don't think that makes much sense. It seems like GW was trying to answer a question no one was asking.

ChrisCP wrote:

Target model, one roll to hit, you must roll to hit with a PSA unless one is told one doesn't have to/automatic hit.

An example of a PSA which does not require a roll to hit is in the ork 'Dex - Zzap pg 37 - it says "Choose an enemy unit within LoS. If in range the target unit is automatically hit...".

So who do I roll to hit against with Nurgle's Rot?

I am told that everyone in 6" takes a Strength 3 hit. If there are 30 orks within 6", I roll 30 times? If that -is- the case, then I'm not following the power's rule when it says everyone within 6" takes a Str. 3 hit. Instead, only some of the models within 6" take a Str. 3 hit.

Which is it? It's either everyone, or some, but it's not both. And you're only told one of the two.

Edit: And if it's only some, please point me to the rules that tell me to ignore what the Nurgle's Rot power tells me to do in lieu of FAQ interpretation. Not only that, but also, if I have 30 'targets' (since I have to roll to hit, and all) who am I allowed to assault? If my 'Rot' hits 3 units, I can assault any of the 3? How do I choose a target when the power doesn't target anyone? Since it is a PSA, it needs a target. But it doesn't target. It has 'targets', but you don't choose them.

If you are told that everyone (I am guesing enemy models) in 6" takes a strength 3 hit then you are exempted from the rules normally requiring you to roll to hit. If you tried to roll to hit then you would not be following the rules laid out by the codex.

Stealth edit!!

Was going to address snping models with Jaws does not mean that you declare a target/slash check range, and thus need to roll a hit. It only means that my 24" line, I can place it so that the first model in LoS affected is an IC/Mek/special weapon.

It only reinforces my point that Jaws is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks because the general rules for psychic shooting attacks do not let you normally snipe a model out of a unit.

After reading FAQ's and SW codex, it seems to me very clear that at the moment JotWW requires a single to hit roll then draw your line through the target.

tgf wrote:After reading FAQ's and SW codex, it seems to me very clear that at the moment JotWW requires a single to hit roll then draw your line through the target.

Too bad you didn't read the BRB as part of your investigation because you will see that I does not.

puma713 wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Target model, one roll to hit, you must roll to hit with a PSA unless one is told one doesn't have to/automatic hit.

An example of a PSA which does not require a roll to hit is in the ork 'Dex - Zzap pg 37 - it says "Choose an enemy unit within LoS. If in range the target unit is automatically hit...".

So who do I roll to hit against with Nurgle's Rot?

I am told that everyone in 6" takes a Strength 3 hit. If there are 30 orks within 6", I roll 30 times? If that -is- the case, then I'm not following the power's rule when it says everyone within 6" takes a Str. 3 hit. Instead, only some of the models within 6" take a Str. 3 hit.

Which is it? It's either everyone, or some, but it's not both. And you're only told one of the two.

Edit: And if it's only some, please point me to the rules that tell me to ignore what the Nurgle's Rot power tells me to do in lieu of FAQ interpretation. Not only that, but also, if I have 30 'targets' (since I have to roll to hit, and all) who am I allowed to assault? If my 'Rot' hits 3 units, I can assault any of the 3? How do I choose a target when the power doesn't target anyone? Since it is a PSA, it needs a target. But it doesn't target. It has 'targets', but you don't choose them.

Nurgles' wording pretty please =) !!!

Brother Ramses wrote:

tgf wrote:After reading FAQ's and SW codex, it seems to me very clear that at the moment JotWW requires a single to hit roll then draw your line through the target.

Too bad you didn't read the BRB as part of your investigation because you will see that I does not.

I believe you are just reading it the way you want it to read. Should I strive to post constructively? <affirmative --Janthkin>

ChrisCP wrote:

puma713 wrote:

*snip*

Nurgles' wording pretty please =) !!!

A psyker may use this power in the Shooting Phase instead of using another ranged weapon. The psyker may be in close combat at the time, as may the targets. If the psychic test is successful, all enemy models within 6" of the psyker suffer a Strength 3 hit with AP -.

Yep lots of rolling to hit. I was thinking if it targeted a unit, then one could roll to hit the unit and then each guy <6" take their hit.

S'all good thou, this clarification, affects everyone.

(and your Cutthroat is cool)

Choboking wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Choboking wrote:No, the FAQ tells you how to treat PSAs

No, the FAQ redundantly tells us that PSA follow the "to hit" rules already spelled out in the BRB. It does nothing to invalidate previous exceptions. The FAQ is redundant with pre-existing rules, it was not needed, and it changes nothing. If JOTWW, MH, ect. didn't need to roll to hit prior to this FAQ, then they don't need to now.

If that is your stance then they always needed to hit. How you played in the past is irrelevant. The clarifications show both skills to be PSAs and require to hit rolls.

That is the stance as laid out by both the BRB, independant of the FAQ, and the FAQ itself... and no, they never needed to hit because the codex provided specific exceptions in its written rules that states how hits are determined, overriding the BRB then and still overriding the FAQ (which simply restates the BRB) now.