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merlin96 wrote:Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment).

Tempest is not a PSA, so it is not comparable. MH follows the same "to hit" rule as JOTWW.

Think of it this way:

1) Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
3) Roll for effects

merlin96 wrote:But where does it say when the line is negated? Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment). Psychic test is past, and the line happens (That just happened!!!). Hope everyone gets my movie quote, lol. Instead of the power affecting a set ratios of x inches, it affects a 24 inch line.

Neither of those effect the board at all. They only affect units within 24" of the Rune Priest (TW) or the unit that was targeted (MH). Neither of them change the board. Bad examples.

Choboking wrote:

merlin96 wrote:Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment).

Tempest is not a PSA, so it is not comparable. MH follows the same "to hit" rule as JOTWW.

Think of it this way:

1) Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
3) Roll for effects

In the case of MH, the rule specifically tells you where the hits go, to the target unit. That kills your second step concept. The codex specific rule is an exception to the BRB general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

1. Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2. Effects of psychic power are in affect.
2. Target unit takes 3d6 Str 3 AP - hits.
3. Roll for wounds.
4. Saves are taken.
5. Casualities removed.

Okay, bad example. But line fore line lets look at it.

1) Psychic test (does the attack happen)
----------Yes, the line is drawn 24 inches.
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
-----------Yes, I just drew a line for it, just like a template and aimed it. Do you roll to hit on a flamer? A flamer is a shooting attack, right. The SW FAQ says "in effect he is treated as the target model." In effect is "like" not "is" the target.
3) Roll for effects
-----------And because it requires each model to take a initiative test, that is why a specific model can be eliminated

Why would a failed roll to hit cause the 24 inch line on the ground to stop. The only time I can think of that it may be stopped is if the power is nulled by another psyker.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Choboking wrote:

merlin96 wrote:Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment).

Tempest is not a PSA, so it is not comparable. MH follows the same "to hit" rule as JOTWW.

Think of it this way:

1) Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
3) Roll for effects

In the case of MH, the rule specifically tells you where the hits go, to the target unit. That kills your second step concept. The codex specific rule is an exception to the BRB general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

1. Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2. Effects of psychic power are in affect.
2. Target unit takes 3d6 Str 3 AP - hits.
3. Roll for wounds.
4. Saves are taken.
5. Casualities removed.

The hits only go there if the attack lands properly. Nothing about the wording of that spell exempts it from needing to hit the unit. Once the attack lands, then the amount of wound causing hits can be determined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

merlin96 wrote:
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
-----------Yes, I just drew a line for it, just like a template and aimed it. Do you roll to hit on a flamer? A flamer is a shooting attack, right. The SW FAQ says "in effect he is treated as the target model." In effect is "like" not "is" the target. .

JOTWW is not a template attack. You have made that up. Behaving like a template (in that it is a line), does not confer template status to the spell.

Actually it does state that they are hits and not shots.

BRB pg. 27
Some weapons such as storm bolters and multi-lasers fire multiple shots. Where this is the case the number of shot a weapon fires is noted after its type. For example, a multi-laser fires three shots in each shooting phase so its type is noted as Heavy 3.

So, shots are not the same as hits. You roll for the number of shots to see how many hits you get. After you determine the amount of hits, then roll for wounds and so on....

SW Codes p. 37
This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits with AP -.

This power does not specify how many shots, it skips that part and goes directly to the unit suffering 3D6 hits.

That is why this power also is another example that there are exception to the PSA rule.

I never said that JotWW was a template, it is an example. The rules for JotWW only state that you draw a line from the Rune Priest. The SW FAQ only clarifies that it can in fact be targeted at a specific model. Example, if you use a template flamer, you cover as many models as you can right? For the JotWW, you do the same thing, you cover as many models as you can to get the maximum effect. The SW FAQ only states that the first model must be in line of sight, because it is a line. That is it.

merlin96 wrote:Actually it does state that they are hits and not shots.

BRB pg. 27
Some weapons such as storm bolters and multi-lasers fire multiple shots. Where this is the case the number of shot a weapon fires is noted after its type. For example, a multi-laser fires three shots in each shooting phase so its type is noted as Heavy 3.

So, shots are not the same as hits. You roll for the number of shots to see how many hits you get. After you determine the amount of hits, then roll for wounds and so on....

SW Codes p. 37
This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits with AP -.

This power does not specify how many shots, it skips that part and goes directly to the unit suffering 3D6 hits.

That is why this power also is another example that there are exception to the PSA rule.

This is not in conflict with what I said. Yes, the attack inflicts "hits" not shots. But the attack itself must first hit its target as it is a PSA. You do not roll individual "hits/shots" as you would with a bolter. Rather, if the spell lands, you get 3D6 hits and proceed to roll them for wounds.

Choboking wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Choboking wrote:

merlin96 wrote:Just like Tempest Wraith and MH, this power effects the board (environment).

Tempest is not a PSA, so it is not comparable. MH follows the same "to hit" rule as JOTWW.

Think of it this way:

1) Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
3) Roll for effects

In the case of MH, the rule specifically tells you where the hits go, to the target unit. That kills your second step concept. The codex specific rule is an exception to the BRB general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

1. Psychic test (does the attack happen)
2. Effects of psychic power are in affect.
2. Target unit takes 3d6 Str 3 AP - hits.
3. Roll for wounds.
4. Saves are taken.
5. Casualities removed.

The hits only go there if the attack lands properly. Nothing about the wording of that spell exempts it from needing to hit the unit. Once the attack lands, then the amount of wound causing hits can be determined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

merlin96 wrote:
2) Hit roll (does the attack go where you wanted)
-----------Yes, I just drew a line for it, just like a template and aimed it. Do you roll to hit on a flamer? A flamer is a shooting attack, right. The SW FAQ says "in effect he is treated as the target model." In effect is "like" not "is" the target. .

JOTWW is not a template attack. You have made that up. Behaving like a template (in that it is a line), does not confer template status to the spell.

The wording of the psyhic power is very specific in that the target unit takes hits. As has been pointed out this shows that it is an exception to the general rule for psychic shooting attacks. It bypasses the general rules by telling you specifically that the target unit takes 3d6 hits.

How do you determine how many hits you have? By first rolling the number of shots to see which are hits. Thus the number of shots is before you figure out how many hits.

A psychic test is taken to see if the power is cast. You pass. In this case it already hits because the rules bypass the number of shots that may cause hits, because the unit suffers 3D6 HITS. Then you roll to wound.

I fear we are going in circles. It seems you both are just ignoring, or perhaps not understanding what I am saying. These 3D6 hits are the effect of the PSA. In order for that effect to occur, the PSA itself must first hit the target.

The wording does not exempt it from this rule. If the PSA misses, the effect of that attack is negated. If the PSA hits, then its effects occur as described in the codex.

Bolters do not specify what happens when they miss either.

Few things do, really.

merlin96 wrote:I have already stated that MH looks like it has to roll to hit, since the FAQ refers to it missing, thus you must have rolled to hit.

Shooting attacks can also fail to hit because the target is outside of range or not in LOS. You declare your target and then measure for range and LOS. Failure to be within range or LOS is an automatic miss.

wyomingfox wrote:

merlin96 wrote:I have already stated that MH looks like it has to roll to hit, since the FAQ refers to it missing, thus you must have rolled to hit.

Shooting attacks can also fail to hit because the target is outside of range or not in LOS. You declare your target and then measure for range and LOS. Failure to be within range or LOS is an automatic miss.

You are advocating then that you could be behind a building with no LOS to anything and target a unit 50" away with Murderous Hurricane and have it auto-miss both because you're out of range and because you don't have line of sight because you're behind a building and that unit still treats all terrain as difficult and dangerous? I know what the SW FAQ says, and now I'm wondering if you agree to play it like that (i.e. infinite range, no LOS required, if within 18" and LOS then add on 3D6 hits?).

No, I was just pointing out that you could "miss" without a roll to hit being made.

wyomingfox wrote:No, that's is not what I am arguing at all LOL.

GW says that MH can miss and still affect the target with difficult/dangerous terrain.

So which is it? Can it miss by rolling to hit and failing? Or can it miss by being out of range / out of LOS effectively becoming an infinate range ignore LOS attack?

How can MH miss and still effect the target as per SW FAQ?

unless an attack states it does not need to roll to hit, or is a template weapon, it probably needs to roll to hit if its a psychic shooting attack, or has a weapon profile.

wyomingfox wrote:

merlin96 wrote:I have already stated that MH looks like it has to roll to hit, since the FAQ refers to it missing, thus you must have rolled to hit.

Shooting attacks can also fail to hit because the target is outside of range or not in LOS. You declare your target and then measure for range and LOS. Failure to be within range or LOS is an automatic miss.

Not entirely true. Failure to be within range is an automatic miss. You check LOS before you check range. If you're out of LOS, you can choose a target that you can see.

I was thinking more in line with LOS limmits due to some wargear or night fighting rules, but on further thought yes you are correct.

puma713 wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

merlin96 wrote:I have already stated that MH looks like it has to roll to hit, since the FAQ refers to it missing, thus you must have rolled to hit.

Shooting attacks can also fail to hit because the target is outside of range or not in LOS. You declare your target and then measure for range and LOS. Failure to be within range or LOS is an automatic miss.

Not entirely true. Failure to be within range is an automatic miss. You check LOS before you check range. If you're out of LOS, you can choose a target that you can see.

Which you do not do with Jaws. You pass the psychic test and you lay down a 24" line. Then you check that you have LoS to the first model that the 24" line touches. If you have LoS to the first model that the 24" line touches, that model becomes your target model. Now here is the exception to the general psychic shooting attack rules,

ANYTHING THE LINE TOUCHES TAKES AN INITIATIVE TEST!!!

You don't roll to hit something that the line is already touching. You don't roll to hit a target model that became a target model when it was initially touched by placement of the 24" line to make it a target model in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nos, you keep pointing out the target wording in the FAQ as the foundation of your argument that a to hit roll is required just as you were pointing out that "move" was in the description of shunting as the foundation that it was allowed during a scout move.

The codex rule is an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. The entire rule for Jaws does not follow the standard for a psychic shooting attack. You determine LoS after the power has already affected a model. You determine your target after the power has already affected a model. The power does not hit, it touches and passes through models.

Find me a rule in the book telling me how to roll to touch and I will roll, to touch rolls for Jaws every time.

Okay, let’s break down.

The main argument that I am trying to address is can a PSA ever be done without being rolled to hit?

PSA are treated as a regular shooting attack just like those of a weapon, the FAQ just restated the same thing. Has range, strength, ap, calls itself PSA, roll like it’s a gun. Paragraph one on pg. 50 even says that, “Exceptions to these rules are covered in their Codexes.” If condition one is met, go on to condition two. If condition two is not met, go back to condition one.

Everyone is arguing that no matter what, you have to role to hit because it is a PSA. The new FAQ still does not remove that “Exceptions to these rules are covered in their Codexes.”

The BA blood boil rule is a prime example. It states, “This is a psychic shooting attack that hits automatically an enemy unit within 12 inches.” The psyker casting the spell can even choose which model will suffer the wound if he rolls above a 5 and passes his psychic test! It calls itself a PSA, it can target a specific model!!! Do you also require this to roll to hit? If this is the case you adding an extra step where there isn’t one. There is no conflict here.

Template style psychic powers have a weapon profile, strength, AP value and calls itself a PSA. Do you play this like below?
1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit
3. Place template over models since roll to hit was good.
4. Roll to wound
5. Roll for any saves

Or in the case of MH
1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit to see if you hit the target unit
3. Roll to 3D6 to see how many shots you get
4. Roll the results of the 3D6 to see how many where hits
5. Roll to wound
6. Roll for any saves

This is not how it works. The FAQ was a clarification not a change in any way for this. These are all still PSA, but with their own rules as, “Exceptions to these rules are covered in their Codexes.”

JotWW
1. Take psychic test
2. Place a line 24 inches long, passing through the first model that is in LOS.
3. Any model that is on the line must now take a Initiative test

Exceptions.

Brother Ramses wrote:The power does not hit, it touches and passes through models.

Enough man. As if the semantic argument you are making wasn't weak enough arlready, it is factually wrong. Here it is again since you keep plugging your ears (eyes i guess)

From SW FAQ regarding JOTWW:
"[...] in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!"

The spell hits. You ignoring this fact brings nothing new to the debate. All you are doing is misrepresenting facts because you do not want to lose your edge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Merlin

Yes there are exceptions. JOTWW is not one of them. It is not a template weapon.

Perfectly clear to me Merlin.

If you look at almost all codexes, some if not all codexes have some exceptions to the general rules for psychic powers and in turn psychic shooting attacks. Just as an example for the SW codex,

Living Lightning: No exceptions.
MH: Exceptions: Rolling to hit.
Jaws: Exceptions: Rolling to hit, determining LoS, determining target, range.
Fury of the Wolf Spirits: Exceptions: firing two weapon profiles as one psychic shooting attack.

As you point out, the new FAQ does not override the first paragraph of page 50, Psykers yet it is like people saw the new FAQ and are just completely disregarding that specific paragraph and blanket covering ALL psychic shooting attacks with the FAQ when that is not the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Choboking wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:The power does not hit, it touches and passes through models.

Enough man. As if the semantic argument you are making wasn't weak enough arlready, it is factually wrong. Here it is again since you keep plugging your ears (eyes i guess)

From SW FAQ regarding JOTWW:
"[...] in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!"

The spell hits. You ignoring this fact brings nothing new to the debate. All you are doing is misrepresenting facts because you do not want to lose your edge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Merlin

Yes there are exceptions. JOTWW is not one of them. It is not a template weapon.

The rule tells you how the power works. The FAQ clarifies how to determine LoS.

Your argument is based on a semantic, not mine. The power specifically tells you that anything the line TOUCHES takes an Initiative test. Not what the line hits, not what the rune priest hits, not what models are hit, what the line TOUCHES. Now rectify your argument that you propose that the hits that a target unit takes from MH, needing to hit rolls with the hits everyone on the way through for Jaws. You can't because in both instances, the hits/touches in BOTH instances are outright granted without requiring to hit rolls. Your stance would have people rolling to hit for every model the line touches after the target model on a model by model basis because the word "hits" is used.

Look at the BRB rule for vehicles getting a cover save need to be obscured. Now look at Shield of Sang and Storm Caller that outright grant a cover save to vehicles despite not fulfilling the obscured requirement. The same principle applies here that a codex psychic shooting attack has an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Brother Ramses wrote:

The rule tells you how the power works. The FAQ clarifies how to determine LoS.

Your argument is based on a semantic, not mine. The power specifically tells you that anything the line TOUCHES takes an Initiative test. Not what the line hits, not what the rune priest hits, not what models are hit, what the line TOUCHES. Now rectify your argument that you propose that the hits that a target unit takes from MH, needing to hit rolls with the hits everyone on the way through for Jaws. You can't because in both instances, the hits/touches in BOTH instances are outright granted without requiring to hit rolls. Your stance would have people rolling to hit for every model the line touches after the target model on a model by model basis because the word "hits" is used.

Look at the BRB rule for vehicles getting a cover save need to be obscured. Now look at Shield of Sang and Storm Caller that outright grant a cover save to vehicles despite not fulfilling the obscured requirement. The same principle applies here that a codex psychic shooting attack has an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

No, the FAQ tells you how to treat PSAs, which JOTWW is.

Your argument IS based on semantics. Sorry to inform you. I also used semantics to provide a counter example, and thus illustrate that arguing semantics is a weak tool, and unnecessary in this discussion. The facts are simple, and require no fuzzy word arguments to reach a conclusion.

The "to hit" roll isn't about the line touching the models. It is about the line landing where you want it to. Like it or not, JOTWW does not become treated as a template weapon just because a line is involved. It would have to explicitly state that, you cannot just assert that it is not a template weapon. As a result of this, it is treated like any other PSA. It must hit for its effect to take place.

If you miss, your line does not land, and does not touch the models. There is no touching for you argue about.

Again, the only reason I quoted the FAQ about hitting is to stop your ridiculous argument that somehow because touching is involved the attack becomes a template weapon and hits are a given. The attack is a PSA and unless explicitly stated does not gain any immunity to the PSA rules.


And just to preempt you, no the wording does not make JOTWW an exception. Nothing in that description declares it able to ignore its roll to hit.

merlin96 wrote:
Or in the case of MH
1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit to see if you hit the target unit
3. Roll to 3D6 to see how many shots you get
4. Roll the results of the 3D6 to see how many where hits
5. Roll to wound
6. Roll for any saves

No, he means...

1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit to see if you hit the target unit
3. Roll to 3D6 to see how many bits you get
4. Roll to wound
5. Roll for any saves

Which is what the recent BRB FAQ and the SW FAQ seems to imply...

ItsPug wrote:

merlin96 wrote:
Or in the case of MH
1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit to see if you hit the target unit
3. Roll to 3D6 to see how many shots you get
4. Roll the results of the 3D6 to see how many where hits
5. Roll to wound
6. Roll for any saves

No, he means...

1. Take psychic test
2. Roll to hit to see if you hit the target unit
3. Roll to 3D6 to see how many bits you get
4. Roll to wound
5. Roll for any saves

Which is what the recent BRB FAQ and the SW FAQ seems to imply...

The rule is very specific that once the psychic test is passed, the target unit takes 3d6 Str3 AP- hits. This codex psychic shooting attack is an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks in the BRB, to include the new BRB faq.

Choboking wrote:No, the FAQ tells you how to treat PSAs

No, the FAQ redundantly tells us that PSA follow the "to hit" rules already spelled out in the BRB. It does nothing to invalidate previous exceptions. The FAQ is redundant with pre-existing rules, it was not needed, and it changes nothing. If JOTWW, MH, ect. didn't need to roll to hit prior to this FAQ, then they don't need to now.

wyomingfox wrote:

Choboking wrote:No, the FAQ tells you how to treat PSAs

No, the FAQ redundantly tells us that PSA follow the "to hit" rules already spelled out in the BRB. It does nothing to invalidate previous exceptions. The FAQ is redundant with pre-existing rules, it was not needed, and it changes nothing. If JOTWW, MH, ect. didn't need to roll to hit prior to this FAQ, then they don't need to now.

If that is your stance then they always needed to hit. How you played in the past is irrelevant. The clarifications show both skills to be PSAs and require to hit rolls.

Choboking wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

The rule tells you how the power works. The FAQ clarifies how to determine LoS.

Your argument is based on a semantic, not mine. The power specifically tells you that anything the line TOUCHES takes an Initiative test. Not what the line hits, not what the rune priest hits, not what models are hit, what the line TOUCHES. Now rectify your argument that you propose that the hits that a target unit takes from MH, needing to hit rolls with the hits everyone on the way through for Jaws. You can't because in both instances, the hits/touches in BOTH instances are outright granted without requiring to hit rolls. Your stance would have people rolling to hit for every model the line touches after the target model on a model by model basis because the word "hits" is used.

Look at the BRB rule for vehicles getting a cover save need to be obscured. Now look at Shield of Sang and Storm Caller that outright grant a cover save to vehicles despite not fulfilling the obscured requirement. The same principle applies here that a codex psychic shooting attack has an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

No, the FAQ tells you how to treat PSAs, which JOTWW is.

Your argument IS based on semantics. Sorry to inform you. I also used semantics to provide a counter example, and thus illustrate that arguing semantics is a weak tool, and unnecessary in this discussion. The facts are simple, and require no fuzzy word arguments to reach a conclusion.

The "to hit" roll isn't about the line touching the models. It is about the line landing where you want it to. Like it or not, JOTWW does not become treated as a template weapon just because a line is involved. It would have to explicitly state that, you cannot just assert that it is not a template weapon. As a result of this, it is treated like any other PSA. It must hit for its effect to take place.

If you miss, your line does not land, and does not touch the models. There is no touching for you argue about.

Again, the only reason I quoted the FAQ about hitting is to stop your ridiculous argument that somehow because touching is involved the attack becomes a template weapon and hits are a given. The attack is a PSA and unless explicitly stated does not gain any immunity to the PSA rules.


And just to preempt you, no the wording does not make JOTWW an exception. Nothing in that description declares it able to ignore its roll to hit.

Lets break this down;

The FAQ tells you that psychic shooting attacks need to hit rolls.

The BRB also tells you that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes. The new FAQ is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. If an exception to that general rule exists, it will be in the codexes.

Do we agree on this? If not, then there is nothing else to say because then you are just covering your ears and running around in circles screaming,

"PSA REQUIRE TO HIT ROLLS!!"

Over and over again.

Now, the rule for JAWS tells you to pass a psychic test and place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest. That is it. You are not directed to take any other action to determine where the line lands. You are given a condition that must be met (pass a psychic test) and action to take when the condition is met (place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest).

Not once have I ever mentioned or said that JAWS is a template weapon btw.

Now, how does Jaws affect a model? By touching it. That is right there in the rules as well. The line is placed as specifically directed by the rule (an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks), the first model it affects must be within LoS (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack), and any model it touches must take an initiative test (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack).

Now, other then trying time and time again to tell me that JAWS is a PSA so must roll to hit, now that I have shown you exactly how it is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, explain how it is NOT a codex exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Lets break this down;

The FAQ tells you that psychic shooting attacks need to hit rolls.

The BRB also tells you that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes. The new FAQ is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. If an exception to that general rule exists, it will be in the codexes.

Do we agree on this? If not, then there is nothing else to say because then you are just covering your ears and running around in circles screaming,

"PSA REQUIRE TO HIT ROLLS!!"

Over and over again.

Now, the rule for JAWS tells you to pass a psychic test and place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest. That is it. You are not directed to take any other action to determine where the line lands. You are given a condition that must be met (pass a psychic test) and action to take when the condition is met (place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest).

Not once have I ever mentioned or said that JAWS is a template weapon btw.

Now, how does Jaws affect a model? By touching it. That is right there in the rules as well. The line is placed as specifically directed by the rule (an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks), the first model it affects must be within LoS (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack), and any model it touches must take an initiative test (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack).

Now, other then trying time and time again to tell me that JAWS is a PSA so must roll to hit, now that I have shown you exactly how it is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, explain how it is NOT a codex exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack.

Also, FWIW, if you needed a roll to hit before you laid down the line, you'd have to choose a target, which would be going against Jaws' specific rules in how a target is chosen.

puma713 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Lets break this down;

The FAQ tells you that psychic shooting attacks need to hit rolls.

The BRB also tells you that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes. The new FAQ is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. If an exception to that general rule exists, it will be in the codexes.

Do we agree on this? If not, then there is nothing else to say because then you are just covering your ears and running around in circles screaming,

"PSA REQUIRE TO HIT ROLLS!!"

Over and over again.

Now, the rule for JAWS tells you to pass a psychic test and place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest. That is it. You are not directed to take any other action to determine where the line lands. You are given a condition that must be met (pass a psychic test) and action to take when the condition is met (place a 24" line starting from the base of the rune priest).

Not once have I ever mentioned or said that JAWS is a template weapon btw.

Now, how does Jaws affect a model? By touching it. That is right there in the rules as well. The line is placed as specifically directed by the rule (an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks), the first model it affects must be within LoS (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack), and any model it touches must take an initiative test (an exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack).

Now, other then trying time and time again to tell me that JAWS is a PSA so must roll to hit, now that I have shown you exactly how it is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, explain how it is NOT a codex exception to the general rules for a psychic shooting attack.

Also, FWIW, if you needed a roll to hit before you laid down the line, you'd have to choose a target, which would be going against Jaws' specific rules in how a target is chosen.

Exactly! Which on it's own is again another codex exception to the general rules on psychic shooting attacks.