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Emperors Faithful wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:German Empire supported AustroHungary. They saw Serbs as "lonely peasants good only to be killed and their land conquered". So to my point of view German Empire = evil.

My Bias Sense is tingling.

I understand that you're Serbian, but you have to get that your teaching of history is bound to be skewed by your upbringing. Believe me I have a Bolivian friend and there is no love lost between you two.

Basically, I don't know enough about it to so much as touch it with a 10-foot pole.

As for America, bringing to order to the world by choking the s*** out of it. People living there are good, country is beautiful and you can always succeed if you want. But their politicians are only concerned in ruling the world and telling other countries what to do, that's somewhat "evil" by common standards ( in fact, when I see America today I see many similarity's with former USSR when it comes to telling other countries what to do and to take shape in their politics ).

Corrupt/Douchebag Politicians? Tick.
Skewed worldview that places them at the centre of the universe? Tick.

I could go on, but you've basically described any given country in the world.

I really don't want to start a political debate in this thread, but the idea that Germany in 1914 was an innocent victim of circumstances outside its control is totally bunk. The Kaiser was an incompetent and the army and politicians were chomping at the bit to kick France and Russia in. Germany's alliance with Austria was entirely defensive, and they very well could've defused the situation or contained it to a much smaller war if they were not so intent on a second 1871. The idea that every country was equally intent on the war is wrong as well. Russia was in the process of modernizing and had no desire to fight in war it couldn't win, Britain was concerned pretty much with safeguarding its own holdings and ensuring free trade. Only France had any desire to war with Germany, and it was born primarily from the beating they had received 50 years previously and the desire to retake the stolen territory of Alsace. And no, Alsace-Lorraine was not "german" in 1870, they spoke a German dialect but they were by nationality French and had no desire to be incorporated into any German state. After its conquest, Alsace-Lorraine was, unlike every other German state, ruled as a conquered territory, directly from Berlin, and was even colonized by Germans from elsewhere in the Reich. Alsatians in 1913 were harshly reprimanded for so much as using "bonjour" as a greeting rather than "guten tag", and tellingly, after the war broke out they were almost entirely barred from serving anywhere where they might encounter French troops. My family was from and many still live in Wissembourg, I'm not just making things up here.

Basically, after the ousting of Bismarck, Germany was totally intent on making itself master of Europe and yes, is quite to blame for the bloodshed the was to follow. It wasn't "evil" in the sense that the Nazi state was, but a favorable comparison to Nazis isn't really much to take pride in.

the color purple wrote:
I'm not just making things up here.

Sorry, you did exactly that.

the color purple wrote:
Basically, after the ousting of Bismarck, Germany was totally intent on making itself master of Europe and yes, is quite to blame for the bloodshed the was to follow. It wasn't "evil" in the sense that the Nazi state was, but a favorable comparison to Nazis isn't really much to take pride in.

I see. Were back to the craPPy idea of "innocent" factions in a world war..
There is lots of evidence to point at the reasons behind those 2 wars and none of it suggests it was the doing of a single Nation.
But hey, easier to throw such black&white view in than really sticking with the topic that is 40k background / can evil win ?
Because you know, 40k isn't real life earth +38k years.

Wait, what the hell just happened?

That's the best example of someone re-writing history (somehow ending up blaming Germany solely for WWI) that I've ever seen. And it happened immediately after a Mod gave a warning that things were drifting too far off topic.

Someone only knows his history from a comic book, i guess.

Ah well, lets all brace ourselves for Threadlock then :(

Not true, we can do amazing things also...
Like building the most beautiful things that exist ( Great Wall of China, Great Pyramids etc... ). You must have some idea how many people died building those things. The pyramids are essentialy pointless- thousands died so pharoah could have a nice burial

We can also prevent other lesser species to go into extermination ( Panda, Great Blue Whale, Gorillas...). "lesser species" shows exactly what he was saying. We have no reason to believe we can claim whatever we like but we arrogantly believe it's our right to this planet. Look at why those species became endangered- hint it's usually us.

We can make mistakes, like draining the oil into the sea... But we can also correct most of them ( like Recycling used things or start using renewable energies instead of gas, oil and coal ). Resolving problems we cause isn't really a positive. It's just being less bad

If you basis of "we are evil" only goes for wars, individual requests and striping this planet of recourse....let me tell you - no race is perfect. But we are the one who can repair it's mistakes. And we are not evil as a whole as you think. If we are them our race would disappear in 1963 when both Gorbachev and Kennedy hold their fingers on the big red button.
And remember Vietnam war, how many people protest against it in US alone? In the end, US retreated because they lost people support in their own land, meaning that even average American is able to stand up and to protest against evil things his country is doing. Problem with Humanity as a whole is - we are race that follows it's leaders, regardless who they are ( just see Hitler and Stalin ). So we can be good, but that depends on how moral we are and who is leading us. Which species are you comapring us to? We are the only sapient species- you have nothing to compare us to. People protest against "evil" when it suits them, as soon as it negatively impacts them they conviently look the other way. How many people suffer so we can heave cheaper clothes/food? Even when people know they are using immorral means to get what they want if they can't see it with their own eyes they can ignore it.

We are the only sapient species, sentient is different.

Also those who suffer making cheap clothes are often not making cheap clothes but making £70 shoes of which only 20p goes to the maker! These people are having to make items of clothing every two minuets or so for tiny amounts of pay. This is not right, do the world a favor and buy fairtrade clothing!

I am just saying that dogs still kill cats, cat;s still kill mouse and Lions still eat zebras and let baby Zebras to die over their parent's bodies. And then you have Elephant crushing the anthills, spider immobilizing then sucking it's victim alive and numerous other examples of race not being perfect...

And why don't we have the rights to this planet? Is there someone else with copyrights


Automatically Appended Next Post:

4M2A wrote:

Not true, we can do amazing things also...
Like building the most beautiful things that exist ( Great Wall of China, Great Pyramids etc... ). You must have some idea how many people died building those things. The pyramids are essentialy pointless- thousands died so pharoah could have a nice burial Ok, bad example. How about: Statue of Liberty, Hovers Dam, Big Ben, Eiffel Tower, Voyager 10...

We can also prevent other lesser species to go into extermination ( Panda, Great Blue Whale, Gorillas...). "lesser species" shows exactly what he was saying. We have no reason to believe we can claim whatever we like but we arrogantly believe it's our right to this planet. Look at why those species became endangered- hint it's usually us. They are "lesser" because they have no sentience and can't do anything to prevent their extinction, we can.

We can make mistakes, like draining the oil into the sea... But we can also correct most of them ( like Recycling used things or start using renewable energies instead of gas, oil and coal ). Resolving problems we cause isn't really a positive. It's just being less bad No, that's just taking the responsibility for our mistakes and trying to correct it.

If you basis of "we are evil" only goes for wars, individual requests and striping this planet of recourse....let me tell you - no race is perfect. But we are the one who can repair it's mistakes. And we are not evil as a whole as you think. If we are them our race would disappear in 1963 when both Gorbachev and Kennedy hold their fingers on the big red button.
And remember Vietnam war, how many people protest against it in US alone? In the end, US retreated because they lost people support in their own land, meaning that even average American is able to stand up and to protest against evil things his country is doing. Problem with Humanity as a whole is - we are race that follows it's leaders, regardless who they are ( just see Hitler and Stalin ). So we can be good, but that depends on how moral we are and who is leading us. Which species are you comapring us to? We are the only sapient species- you have nothing to compare us to. People protest against "evil" when it suits them, as soon as it negatively impacts them they conviently look the other way. How many people suffer so we can heave cheaper clothes/food? Even when people know they are using immortal means to get what they want if they can't see it with their own eyes they can ignore it. Sentience have nothing to do with instincts, and all instincts are evil - Human ones included. But we can chose not to go that way and instead try the different one. And people can also choose to decide the outcome of something big. And our moral concence usually make us to go in the less "evil" way possible.

Animals have to eat. How is an elephant treading on an anthill evil- it doesn't have any idea what it's doing. Evil isn't about what you have to do, it's about what you choose to do. Most animals (there are exceptions) only kill for food, or in accidents. Even if animals could live without killing they couldn't choose to. They behave on instinct- they don't understand what killing something means other than that it gives them a meal. The difference is that we have both the ability to comprehend the sufering we cause and the means to stop it but still don't.

When you call animals lesser you are focusing on qualities that make us look better. We could equaly focus on physical ability, lack of destruction cause, ect.. That would put us nowhere near the top. Just because our favoured traits suit us doesn't make us better.

Taking repsonsibility isn't good - it's expected. If I kill someone then plead guilty and go to prison for it i'm not being nice i'm just not so bad.

Instincts aren't bad they just are. Morals can only be applied to choices. Without instincts there would be less evil action but there would also be no living species. Instinct keeps us alive.

4M2A wrote:Animals have to eat. How is an elephant treading on an anthill evil- it doesn't have any idea what it's doing. Evil isn't about what you have to do, it's about what you choose to do. Most animals (there are exceptions) only kill for food, or in accidents. Even if animals could live without killing they couldn't choose to. They behave on instinct- they don't understand what killing something means other than that it gives them a meal. The difference is that we have both the ability to comprehend the sufering we cause and the means to stop it but still don't.

Exactly my point, we can chose not to do that while animals can't. In the end it's all up to the individual, if one redneck torture bunny to death you can't say: "Humanity is evil as a whole". We kill for the food to but some adapt and eat only vegetables. We even have our own animals to eat ( still less evil then eat down the whole ecosystem ). And we protect endangered species by law. And so on...
And can you truly say that Humans are still evil as a whole?

Brother Coa wrote:
And why don't we have the rights to this planet? Is there someone else with copyrights

+1

We ARE the superior race. And we ARE the most evil. To my knowledge no other species commits acts of cruelty for fun and no other species has killed trillions of life forms (other than insects).

We will either Destroy ourselves or Expand and grow into space.

4M2A wrote:
When you call animals lesser you are focusing on qualities that make us look better. We could equaly focus on physical ability, lack of destruction cause, ect.. That would put us nowhere near the top. Just because our favoured traits suit us doesn't make us better.

Taking repsonsibility isn't good - it's expected. If I kill someone then plead guilty and go to prison for it i'm not being nice i'm just not so bad. That's our law system and we have nothing to argue about that.

Instincts aren't bad they just are. Morals can only be applied to choices. Without instincts there would be less evil action but there would also be no living species. Instinct keeps us alive.

Still, this doesn't sing the entire race as "evil" - only individuals. And majority of people alive today will do the quite oposite of our "evil" instincts. No matter if we know we will die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChocolateGork wrote:
+1

We ARE the superior race. And we ARE the most evil. To my knowledge no other species commits acts of cruelty for fun and no other species has killed trillions of life forms (other than insects).

We will either Destroy ourselves or Expand and grow into space.

I think that other option is more plausible... since our "good" side won't let us destroy ourselves...
And yes, individuals are evil while majority is trying to comprehend. We have done all that but that is the price of sentience.

Brother Coa wrote:

4M2A wrote:Animals have to eat. How is an elephant treading on an anthill evil- it doesn't have any idea what it's doing. Evil isn't about what you have to do, it's about what you choose to do. Most animals (there are exceptions) only kill for food, or in accidents. Even if animals could live without killing they couldn't choose to. They behave on instinct- they don't understand what killing something means other than that it gives them a meal. The difference is that we have both the ability to comprehend the sufering we cause and the means to stop it but still don't.

Exactly my point, we can chose not to do that while animals can't. In the end it's all up to the individual, if one redneck torture bunny to death you can't say: "Humanity is evil as a whole". We kill for the food to but some adapt and eat only vegetables. We even have our own animals to eat ( still less evil then eat down the whole ecosystem ). And we protect endangered species by law. And so on...
And can you truly say that Humans are still evil as a whole?

We COULD live entirely sustainably and kill only the necessary amount of lifeforms. But we DONT. We CHOOSE to kill trillions of lifeforms in excess. Those who don't actively participate in this still CHOOSE to use the luxurys that needlessly cost the lives of creatures and the health of our planet. Every evil figure in history has made a choice to do what they did. And so did many of there followers.

Humans ARE the only EVIL in the world.

ChocolateGork wrote:
Humans ARE the only EVIL in the world.

Your point?

Like I said, with sentience comes a price. Every other animal would do the same if they have sentience. Other do the same thing with other animals but they are forgiven because they have no sentience...
We are EVIL but we can do GOOD things. And we usually do more GOOD then EVIL.

Brother Coa wrote:

I think that other option is more plausible... since our "good" side won't let us destroy ourselves...
And yes, individuals are evil while majority is trying to comprehend. We have done all that but that is the price of sentience.

We have proven countless times that our ''good side'' is not the dominant side. It is FAR more likely that we will blow ourselves up (possibly literally) and the race will fail without intergalactic expansion.

I can see that you are the one of those: "the doom is near" guys...
We have that chance in 1963 and we chose not to...
And instead of sitting down and typing : "We are so evil that even Satan is a little kid compared to us" why don't you do to make our race look better? Like voluntarism or apply for "save the nature" jobs...?

Brother Coa wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:
Humans ARE the only EVIL in the world.

Your point?

Like I said, with sentience comes a price. Every other animal would do the same if they have sentience. Other do the same thing with other animals but they are forgiven because they have no sentience...
We are EVIL but we can do GOOD things. And we usually do more GOOD then EVIL.

Example? What POSITIVE influences have we had on anyone but OURSELVES.

And if other creatures were FULLY sentient then none of them would have the physical capabilities to do what we have done. So NO-ONE has any idea how they would evolve.

Even if we do expand intp space it isn't proof of our good side. We will expand into space because it has some resource we want. So far all we have succeeded in doing is surviving our bad side.

What about people who recycle?

Brother Coa wrote:I can see that you are the one of those: "the doom is near" guys...
We have that chance in 1963 and we chose not to...
And instead of sitting down and typing : "We are so evil that even Satan is a little kid compared to us" why don't you do to make our race look better? Like voluntarism or apply for "save the nature" jobs...?

I cant make our race look better when we don't do anything good. Like 4M2A said repairing (and only a TINY bit in most cases) doesnt make us good. It makes us less evil.

We did not choose to blow ourselves up in the 60's becuase no-one involved wanted to die. The negatives of launching missiles FAR outweighed the positives for both sides.

You so far have provided no evidence to show my beliefs and statements are not fact.

Not does point to that we are evil and we are going to destroy the universe...
We would expand because we must. Because this planet is beginning to be to small for us.
And the faster we get into it the better....

They are better but they aren't undoing all of the damage one by the energy used, all the suffering of people in other countries caused by their society, ect...

4M2A wrote:Even if we do expand intp space it isn't proof of our good side. We will expand into space because it has some resource we want. So far all we have succeeded in doing is surviving our bad side.

Surviving ourselves and giving All we have to the galaxy.

ChocolateGork wrote:
I cant make our race look better when we don't do anything good. Like 4M2A said repairing (and only a TINY bit in most cases) doesnt make us good. It makes us less evil.

We did not choose to blow ourselves up in the 60's becuase no-one involved wanted to die. The negatives of launching missiles FAR outweighed the positives for both sides.

You so far have provided no evidence to show my beliefs and statements are not fact.

I did, you told me that this was just "Resolving problems we cause isn't really a positive. It's just being less bad." So by you 2 we are "evil" even when we are trying to bew "good".
Why am I then debating with you when I can't prove to you anything? And if you hate Humans so much, then do us all a favor and shoot yourself and try to be a bunny or a fish in your next life...

Brother Coa wrote:Not does point to that we are evil and we are going to destroy the universe...
We would expand because we must. Because this planet is beginning to be to small for us.
And the faster we get into it the better....

The faster we get into it the faster we will do the exact same thing to everything we can.

And the only way we will be stopped after enough successful expansion is through the encountering of a BIGGER BETTER alien race (which statistically SHOULD be out there) or through our genetic code evolving and mutating in a BAD way that we cant fix.

Yes we can't ever be good but we can still limit the bad. We would still be evil but being less evil is an improvement.

Then why would God go trough so much trouble with us if we are evil?

Brother Coa wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:
I cant make our race look better when we don't do anything good. Like 4M2A said repairing (and only a TINY bit in most cases) doesnt make us good. It makes us less evil.

We did not choose to blow ourselves up in the 60's becuase no-one involved wanted to die. The negatives of launching missiles FAR outweighed the positives for both sides.

You so far have provided no evidence to show my beliefs and statements are not fact.

I did, you told me that this was just "Resolving problems we cause isn't really a positive. It's just being less bad." So by you 2 we are "evil" even when we are trying to bew "good".
Why am I then debating with you when I can't prove to you anything? And if you hate Humans so much, then do us all a favor and shoot yourself and try to be a bunny or a fish in your next life...

I don't hate humans. I love my life and and perfectly happy contributing to the destruction of my planet and the races around me becuase i know that MY decision would change NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.

You just cant seem to accept that you are more evil than any life form on the planet other than some humans. You KILL by choosing to use the internet and sleep in a bed and wear clothes and eat meat. Through doing these things you ARE committing acts of evil.

Maybe not acts of GREAT of evil but evil all the same. And i doubt you have done NEARLY enough good to make up for the bad you have done, although even if you had it still wouldn't make you good.

I just hope i can live my life and have fun (And never die but that's not so likely ) without having to go through the world adjusting to the depletion of oil or having to live through a great war. Sadly i will probably be present in this world for both these events.

People don't choose to be evil. People don't choose anything. For, you see:

Then why would God go trough so much trouble with us if we are evil?

All what trouble? Last time I checked Gods last properly recorded and accepted action towards us was never.

(lets try not to bring religion into this- moral arguments end badly, religious arguments end worse.)

Trollpie- suprisingly that aren't isn't to far from the truth.