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ChocolateGork wrote:

I don't hate humans. I love my life and and perfectly happy contributing to the destruction of my planet and the races around me becuase i know that MY decision would change NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.

You just cant seem to accept that you are more evil than any life form on the planet other than some humans. You KILL by choosing to use the internet and sleep in a bed and wear clothes and eat meat. Through doing these things you ARE committing acts of evil.

Maybe not acts of GREAT of evil but evil all the same. And i doubt you have done NEARLY enough good to make up for the bad you have done, although even if you had it still wouldn't make you good.

I just hope i can live my life and have fun (And never die but that's not so likely ) without having to go through the world adjusting to the depletion of oil or having to live through a great war. Sadly i will probably be present in this world for both these events.

Thank you very much, now nothing good exist in this existence since EVERY LIVING THING is done something evil in it's life. You are taking this bad - good thinkg WAY seriously. And don't vorry, we will live in either Fallout or in Madmax or in Star Trek byt heend of this century...

Back to the topic:
It depends on which factions you view as evil. The IoM could be considered evil, in which case evil has won trillions of times, but is now losing. You could see Orks as evil, in which case evil is winning. You could think Orks are simply victims of their nature, and are neutral, and DE are evil. Therefore evil is winning or losing, depending on how you see their situation.
It all depends on who's writing it.

edit*

Instead of what i was going to say ill just put this

Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka Esq.

Has kicked the planet Armagheddon in the goolies multiple times, entire chapters of space marines and legions of titans and billions of imperial guard are trying to hold him back from swamping the Imperium... because he already won and decided to play the game over again!

He let his nemesis live, to provide more sport. Yarrick was defeated and then released again because it pleased The Profit (waaagh be upon Him) of Gork n Mork to keep at it.

3 topics that will always devolve in to flame wars:
1. Morality
2. Religion
3. Tau

All we need now is for BeefCake to pop up, and we have threadlock.


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MeanGreenStompa wrote:Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka Esq.

Has kicked the planet Armagheddon in the goolies multiple times, entire chapters of space marines and legions of titans and billions of imperial guard are trying to hold him back from swamping the Imperium... because he already won and decided to play the game over again!

He let his nemesis live, to provide more sport. Yarrick was defeated and then released again because it pleased The Profit (waaagh be upon Him) of Gork n Mork to keep at it.

But Ghazghkull is an Ork and is doing only what his instincts tell him to do. Ork society is based around war and is the only thing they know. Is it really evil of them to follow what their genetics teach them?

And I will say only this:




And are you saying that you can prove that God doesn't exist ChoclateGork?

TrollPie wrote:But Ghazghkull is an Ork and is doing only what his instincts tell him to do. Ork society is based around war and is the only thing they know. Is it really evil of them to follow what their genetics teach them?

"Evil" often lies in the eye of the beholder - given that we as readers are humans, I'm assuming we're applying our own morality.

Also, I don't think it is just instinct that tells the Orks to gouge out their prisoners' eyes and hack off their hands just to send a message... There's a certain sadistic methodology behind that. Else we can also excuse everything the IoM does because fear is an instinct as well.

TrollPie wrote:But Ghazghkull is an Ork and is doing only what his instincts tell him to do. Ork society is based around war and is the only thing they know. Is it really evil of them to follow what their genetics teach them?

Ghazghkuull is a bit exceptional, Ork instinct essentially makes them want to foit all the time, but Ghaz has greater ambition than that, he wants to crush the galaxy under his heel, and under Orky rule. So, Ghazghkuull could possibly be considered "evil."

Also, can this stupid pseudo-philosophical morality debate end? It was kind of amusing for a short while, now it's just boring. And please don't let religion into it.

ChocolateGork wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:
I cant make our race look better when we don't do anything good. Like 4M2A said repairing (and only a TINY bit in most cases) doesnt make us good. It makes us less evil.

We did not choose to blow ourselves up in the 60's becuase no-one involved wanted to die. The negatives of launching missiles FAR outweighed the positives for both sides.

You so far have provided no evidence to show my beliefs and statements are not fact.

I did, you told me that this was just "Resolving problems we cause isn't really a positive. It's just being less bad." So by you 2 we are "evil" even when we are trying to bew "good".
Why am I then debating with you when I can't prove to you anything? And if you hate Humans so much, then do us all a favor and shoot yourself and try to be a bunny or a fish in your next life...

I don't hate humans. I love my life and and perfectly happy contributing to the destruction of my planet and the races around me becuase i know that MY decision would change NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.

You just cant seem to accept that you are more evil than any life form on the planet other than some humans. You KILL by choosing to use the internet and sleep in a bed and wear clothes and eat meat. Through doing these things you ARE committing acts of evil.

Maybe not acts of GREAT of evil but evil all the same. And i doubt you have done NEARLY enough good to make up for the bad you have done, although even if you had it still wouldn't make you good.

I just hope i can live my life and have fun (And never die but that's not so likely ) without having to go through the world adjusting to the depletion of oil or having to live through a great war. Sadly i will probably be present in this world for both these events.

You do realize that this in bold is the mentality that what is killing our race, because so many people think this way. They are content with being insignificant enough not to matter even though they realize something is wrong. This underscoring of your actual value will only lead to the stagnation of the things around you. You call your race evil and see a problem, but instead of working against it you embrace and become it. This attitude disgusts me.

Derp.

To be fair there isn't much he could do. I do my best but it's pretty hard to sell the idea that we need to disregard all the "advancements" we have made in the last 300 years or we are going to die.

One thing we humans are good at is closing our eyes are pretending we didn't notice when presented with a choice where neither option is good. It's all good recycling and reducing our energy uses but it isn't ever going to make that much of a difference (not to take it away from people who do- at least you try). There isn't much the normal person can do while people burn acres of rainforest each day and others search for new ways to kill each other more efficiently. It's human nature to be selfish there isn't much we can do about it- our instincts tell us to care for ourselves and those we relate to over others. As I said I do try to point out to people what they are doing but they don't want to hear it. They either say i'm lying or claim it's our right to up this world and that they don't care. People will only care when it starts to affect them by which time it's too late.

Heck, the Imperium is pretty evil.

What are you talking about? Evil wins all the time!

Oh, you mean in fiction...

The Red Corsairs totally capture a Space Wolf battle barge in the CSM codex. Dude.

Ahem. And in the 3.5 codex, entire worlds were conquered and/or burned/sacrificed/destroyed.

I haven't read this entire thread, so I don't know if anyone has said it yet, but....


Evil will always triumph because good is dumb!

Nah, good just have their own set of rules they refuse to deviate from thus artificially restricting their success.

Well this thread is remarkable... some people seem to believe everything they say is absolute truth, and won't take "maybe it isn't" for an answer

On topic: every codex includes instances where 'good' (I'll get to that in a minute) guys lose. Hell, so do a lot of the novels.

Now, defining ANY race as 'good' in 40k really is just absolute nonsense. IoM? No way anyone could consider them the good guys. That would involve ignoring pretty much everything they do, attempted genocide being the least of it.

Eldar? The Eldar do what they do to get what they want, and will do seemingly anything to achieve their own ends. They want the Imperium to leave that sacred planet of theirs? It's not like they ask them politely to leave every few years.

Tau? Nice "join us or else" philosophy they generally have, not to mention suspected use of mind control (vespid, ethereals) and other rather unpleasant things.

Seriously, there is no good or evil only a point of view. Especially so in the 40k universe. And in the 40k universe, everyone loses

Beregond wrote:Well this thread is remarkable... some people seem to believe everything they say is absolute truth, and won't take "maybe it isn't" for an answer

On topic: every codex includes instances where 'good' (I'll get to that in a minute) guys lose. Hell, so do a lot of the novels.

Now, defining ANY race as 'good' in 40k really is just absolute nonsense. IoM? No way anyone could consider them the good guys. That would involve ignoring pretty much everything they do, attempted genocide being the least of it.

Eldar? The Eldar do what they do to get what they want, and will do seemingly anything to achieve their own ends. They want the Imperium to leave that sacred planet of theirs? It's not like they ask them politely to leave every few years.

Tau? Nice "join us or else" philosophy they generally have, not to mention suspected use of mind control (vespid, ethereals) and other rather unpleasant things.

Seriously, there is no good or evil only a point of view. Especially so in the 40k universe. And in the 40k universe, everyone loses

I hope the irony was intentional. I thought "Oh look, it's one of those guys who thinks he has a higher understanding, and he's going to repeat the arguments other people have made to appear clever". I think I was on the money.
Although, I have to agree with the "there is no good or evil" belief. If both are absolutes at either ends of a scale, with neutral in the middle, then the Tau, Eldar, and Imperium are on that scale, perhaps with the Tau closer to Good than all others. You have Orkz and Tyranids in the middle in my opinion, and you Chaos and the C'tan on the Evil side. The Dark Eldar are different from the others. They drain the souls of others to keep theirs topped up, so to speak, but they also torture and kill for their own pleasure.

I will honestly say I didn't read the entire thread and I am not trying to appear clever - I am stating my opinion and pointing out that people should be open to the views of others. This was mainly intended as a response to some of the things I've seen being said on the last couple of pages that are, simply put, people being incredibly offensive over what amounts to a difference of opinion

I just think sometimes people need to calm down, sit back and actually read what people are saying to them.

I agree with you on roughly where you place them in the good-evil scheme of things, but also think people need to understand that these are all pretty much biased views

Hasn't Chaos already won ? The gods will always be worshiped and there is nobody to stop them.

The chaos are just following there religion, everyone is entitled to there beliefs.

Chaos, the primordial force in the Warp, has won the setting. Eternal War to feed them.

iproxtaco wrote:Chaos, the primordial force in the Warp, has won the setting. Eternal War to feed them.

Orks have won. To quote an Ork, translated in normal English:

We always win. When we win a fight, we win. If we run away, we run away so we can go back another time to win, see? If we die, it doesnt count, because we die fighting!

And mind, Orks have won from the warp IMHO. They can fire Snotlings trough the warp and back in a few seconds? Awsome!

iproxtaco wrote:Chaos, the primordial force in the Warp, has won the setting. Eternal War to feed them.

I wouldn't say won, more like winning. They haven't won because it's still possible for them to lose, say if the Necrons close the warp. Or Gray Knights start using Draigos DNA for Geneseeds instead of Big E's

I know im probs going to be shot for this but, Evil wins in DoW the deamon is free and in the guise of an inqisitor

GW keeps making money, so..... yes?




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Nicholas wrote:I wouldn't say won, more like winning.

Is that real winning, or Charlie Sheen's "oh crap I'm out of a job and $98 million in pay" winning?

Omegus wrote:GW keeps making money, so..... yes?




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Nicholas wrote:I wouldn't say won, more like winning.

Is that real winning, or Charlie Sheen's "oh crap I'm out of a job and $98 million in pay" winning?

Charlie Sheen winning only their cocaine is infused with souls of innocent mortals

Ok, trying to avoid the pseudo-philosophy and just answer the question...

Has anyone mentioned the Word Bearers series? The first book is a total curbstomp in favor of chaos.

Picked it up because i was playing Word Bearers at the time, thought it would be nice to see them win a few battles. Eventually it became so one-sided, that i learned not to get too attached to any of the imperial characters.

And it sometimes lets you briefly think that the imperials are going to accomplish something, which just makes it worse when they die horribly.

The imperial commander personally takes out a defiler with a meltagun? Awesome! Oh, but five seconds later a terminator stomps him to death, presumably taking the time to skin him and make a fashionable hat.

Alright, time to get serious. The imperials are making a counter charge with a line of leman russes. Nope, a land raider runs over them like a monster truck.

Undoubtedly a massive case of "evil wins".

My opinion, about 40k is there are no "good" guys. All of them kill,burn and again kill. Kill for the Emperor, kill for the Greater Good, Kill for Chaos and so on...

Well Relic and GW presented this differently:

Forces of Order - Imperium, Eldar, Tau.
Forces of Disorder - Chaos, Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons.

With Tyranids as neutral.