Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Where I am now is enjoying the wider world of the Hobby

Having an existing Grey Knights heavy Daemonhunters army , not having purchased anything GW for a year or so I broke my 'Embargo' in the week of the Grey Knights release buying the Codex and a box of Termies at a 20% discount from my local independent .
The recent price rise has wiped that discount out .

I had already reached the decision some years ago in one of the previous price rises that I would never start another new GW army - the expense was just too much - so its not quite a total embargo .

On an aside - I walked into a GW store today in passing - and my jaw metaphorically dropped lower and lower as I scanned across the shelves at the incredible rise in prices , it doesnt seem that long ago I was buying Hammerheads for £20 - now they are £31 !

Edit : Oh , and Codeci @ £20 !

That is another thing I no longer need to worry my pretty little head over

Army book updates
It's like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders
and jumped into my wallet

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:That is another thing I no longer need to worry my pretty little head over

Army book updates
It's like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders
and jumped into my wallet

We gave up on GW’s rules a long time ago, so that is one thing that’s quite nice. Last rulebook I actually gave a damn about was the Guard Codex, but more to see what they screwed up than how ‘good’ it was going to be. The only thing that worries me nower days with army books is just how much of a raping the fluff is going to get (and I think the Grey Knights was critical mass, I can’t imagine it getting any worse than that... then again Ward is writing the Necron book... so anything’s possible I ‘spose).

H.B.M.C. wrote:We gave up on GW’s rules a long time ago, so that is one thing that’s quite nice. Last rulebook I actually gave a damn about was the Guard Codex, but more to see what they screwed up than how ‘good’ it was going to be. The only thing that worries me nower days with army books is just how much of a raping the fluff is going to get (and I think the Grey Knights was critical mass, I can’t imagine it getting any worse than that... then again Ward is writing the Necron book... so anything’s possible I ‘spose).

So you're basically completely bitter and unable to accept that any new fluff or units are good by this point, right?

Yep. That's exactly it. Got it in one ph34r.

x 1000

About to start a Nomad force, painting lots and lots of Trollbloods and pondering about Cygnar. Not looking back.

As it says in my sig, I’ve jumped ship due PP due to the current state of GW. I’ve never been happier personally as PP remind me of how GW used to operate during third edition (when I first joined the hobby).

One of the things I was sick of when I was collecting during fifth edition was making excuses to myself why I was still collecting GW when I had so many issues with the company. I’ve yet to encounter any negatives with PP so far. Even price hasn’t been an issue for me as I’ve been able to get all my PP stuff for cheap including the Bane Thralls resculpt for £31.49.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yep. That's exactly it. Got it in one ph34r.

x 1000

Thanks, I had a strong feeling that you were just irredeemably bitter as think it logical to consider yourself somehow worthy of judging the fluff in C:GK, C:BA, etc. to be blatantly worse than old fluff, is pretty damn crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

candy.man wrote:As it says in my sig, I’ve jumped ship due PP due to the current state of GW. I’ve never been happier personally as PP remind me of how GW used to operate during third edition (when I first joined the hobby).

One of the things I was sick of when I was collecting during fifth edition was making excuses to myself why I was still collecting GW when I had so many issues with the company. I’ve yet to encounter any negatives with PP so far. Even price hasn’t been an issue for me as I’ve been able to get all my PP stuff for cheap including the Bane Thralls resculpt for £31.49.

How do you feel about paying $20 for single pose metal cavalry and $6-$10 for single pose metal infantry? $50+ for metal bricks of 'jack models?

While even in the worst throes of GW's price terribleness, most (not all, looking at you blood knights, and hey even still blood knights are significantly better sculpts than PP) cavalry is still $5-$10 for plastic with many bits options, infantry is $3-$5 for plastic models with a huge array of bits options, and ~$50 models like the talos and wraithlord are of comparable size to warjacks but with a vastly superior range of convertability, posability, and wargear options?


I have no comment on the Warmahordes rules as I don't play it, but hear the rules are well made and competitive.

But for models? If you are quitting GW for price related reasons as likely most people who quit are, isn't it a sort of madness to switch to PP where prices are higher?

its not just price. its price per army. sure, the heavy warjacks are expensive, but you don't need 8 of them for a regular army, you need one, MAYBE two. GW's editions of 40k and WHFB have been steadily increasing the size for a regular battle for years and years so that people will want to buy more product(apocalypse anyone?)

$6-$10 for single pose metal infantry?

Explain how this is worse than $15-20 for a single pose Finecast figure.

Sidstyler wrote:

$6-$10 for single pose metal infantry?

Explain how this is worse than $15-20 for a single pose Finecast figure.

So you think it is valid to compare character model prices from GW to basic infantry prices for PP? Just trying to make sure before I laugh at you.

Alright then, what the feth are you talking about, because I assumed we were comparing the prices of single, infantry-sized models. I don't see why it matters if it's a "character" or not, it's the same size model.

GW and PP character models are both very expensive, in the $15-$20 range.

GW and PP metal infantry models are comparable, but PP is generally slightly more expensive.

PP doesn't much plastic infantry, so you can get $2.5 models from GW with extensive options where the best you can get from PP is $5 with zero options and zero poseability.

ph34r wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:

$6-$10 for single pose metal infantry?

Explain how this is worse than $15-20 for a single pose Finecast figure.

So you think it is valid to compare character model prices from GW to basic infantry prices for PP? Just trying to make sure before I laugh at you.

Warcaster small based PP models range from 10-20 dollars, if you want to compare.

Upper range stuff seems to be based on models that come with sculpted bases,
like the Testament and Epic Kreoss. Epic Severius, the model that comes with
"people shoes" is 23.99. Target average seems to be 14.99.

It depends, some of the character models can get that high but they're usually the larger ones. I've seen quite a few characters/solos in the $10-15 range. When comparing just the troop models then yeah, I think GW is slightly cheaper because most troop choices are in plastic, but it's offset by the fact that with GW you have to buy so damn many of them. For Warmachine you might need maybe two boxes, for any GW game you'll need at least 6-8 for anything that's not a Marine army.

Sorry though, I thought for a minute you were comparing single figure blisters and saying PP was more expensive, I was like "wat".

My issue has not ever really been cost per blister/box, but overall cost of a full army. Comparison time.

I don't have it here, but if I remember correctly, my 2000 point Space Marine army consisted of something like:
Chapter Master - $20
Chaplain with Plasma Pistol - $15
5 Assault Terminators - $50
10 Sternguard - $90
Tac Squad w/Flamer and Missile Launcher - $37.25
Tac Squad w/Plasma Gun and Lascannon (I don't know if the most recent plastic kit includes a Plasma Gun, it didn't when I bought it, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt) - $51.25
3 Rhinos - $99
10 Assault Marines - $66
Predator - $49.50
Land Raider - $66

Grand total: $544 USD

Now, my (planned) 50 points Cyngar for Warmachine. I'll even be generous to GW and list the cost of each Battlebox item seperately:

Commander Coleman Stryker - $8
Charger - $15
Lancer - $17
Ironclad - $35
2 Hunters - $34
Centurion - $35
Journeyman Warcaster - $9
Black 13th Gun Mages - $17
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator - $6
Squire - $10
Box of Sword Knights $40
2 Blisters of Sword Knights - $26
Sword Knight Command - $22

$274, and that's for 50pts. If I'm not mistaken, most tournaments are 35pts, so it'd cost even less.

Now, if you're just buying minis for the sake of buying minis, then yeah, they're roughly the same, but if you're actually playing the game, you will spend less on the average Warmahordes army than you will on a Warhammer army of either flavor.

I shudder to think of the cost of my 2000 points of Skaven.

Also the cost of getting started is widely disproportionate. About $55 will get you a 15 point Warmahordes Army, which is an excellent starting point, and you get quick-start rules. If you want to start 40K with an army that isn't Orks or Space Marines, well... Let's use Dark Eldar as an example. The Battleforce comes with 10 Dark Eldar Warriors, 10 Wyches, a Raider, and 3 Jetbikes. That's $95. You'll need an HQ, say an Archon, for $15.25. Ah, but this starter set doesn't include the rules, so you'll need the Codex at $33. You'll need the rules, too, so that's $57.75, though you could try to get the AoBR book off eBay. A cursory glance seems to reveal the average price at $20. so there's $160-200 just to get started. But no, Warhammer is a perfectly reasonably priced tabletop wargame.

RatBot wrote:My issue has not ever really been cost per blister/box, but overall cost of a full army. Comparison time.

I don't have it here, but if I remember correctly, my 2000 point Space Marine army consisted of something like:
Chapter Master - $20
Chaplain with Plasma Pistol - $15
5 Assault Terminators - $50
10 Sternguard - $90
Tac Squad w/Flamer and Missile Launcher - $37.25
Tac Squad w/Plasma Gun and Lascannon (I don't know if the most recent plastic kit includes a Plasma Gun, it didn't when I bought it, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt) - $51.25
3 Rhinos - $99
10 Assault Marines - $66
Predator - $49.50
Land Raider - $66

Grand total: $544 USD

Now, my (planned) 50 points Cyngar for Warmachine. I'll even be generous to GW and list the cost of each Battlebox item seperately:

Commander Coleman Stryker - $8
Charger - $15
Lancer - $17
Ironclad - $35
2 Hunters - $34
Centurion - $35
Journeyman Warcaster - $9
Black 13th Gun Mages - $17
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator - $6
Squire - $10
Box of Sword Knights $40
2 Blisters of Sword Knights - $26
Sword Knight Command - $22

$274, and that's for 50pts. If I'm not mistaken, most tournaments are 35pts, so it'd cost even less.

Now, if you're just buying minis for the sake of buying minis, then yeah, they're roughly the same, but if you're actually playing the game, you will spend less on the average Warmahordes army than you will on a Warhammer army of either flavor.

...And that's purchasing a SM army from GW, prices can get much higher if your going Guard,Nids...Orks.

And I wouldn't call that Space Marine army the "average", either, it's not using nearly enough vehicles and seems to be more of a "one of everything" type army. A more competitive MSU-style army would cost a lot more than that with all the extra troops/vehicles added in.

Yeah, my army isn't even really all that competitive. I think I threw together a mechanized Dark Eldar list once with an eye on competitiveness. I think it came out to $650 or so, and I nearly had a stroke.

The averages on metal to "metal" I've done in the past have put PP slightly cheaper actually on troop units. GW's plastic however does give them an edge.

RatBot wrote:Yeah, my army isn't even really all that competitive. I think I threw together a mechanized Dark Eldar list once with an eye on competitiveness. I think it came out to $650 or so, and I nearly had a stroke.

I was thinking about getting 9 each of the venoms and raiders so I'd be able to spam either one of them if I wanted. It's almost $600 just for that alone.

If you want to have a good army, or at least be able to field more than one build, it costs a fething fortune.

ph34r brings up a few good points. I am a warmachine player and I'll be the first to admit heavy infantry and character models can get quite expensive. PP are in no way perfect, and some models certainly do fall into that "too expensive for what they are" category. I do think he is overstating the facts though.

Most normal jacks run you about $35, not cheap by a longshot, but a touch better than $50 each. Character jacks do cost about $45-50 usually and tend to have good enough rules for you to want them, heck, drago is even $60 and he isn't even very expensive pointswise.
Single pose metal models for $10-15 seems to be the industry standard these days, sadly. You can look at Corvus Beli, Cipher Studios, Wyrd miniatures, and even citadel finecast, which replaced a metal range, and see prices mostly in that range. This doesn't justify the prices of any of those companies, but it dose make singling any one of them out for prices in that range unfair.
Why do PP only make them in a single pose? because you usually only buy one. Sometimes you'll want 2 or 3 of a solo or weapon attachment, but you should never see a whole unit of one pose.
In regards to customization and wargear, it just isn't in the game. You don't pay points for anything except models in warmachine. The plastic warjack kits are more like the skyray/devilfish than they are weapons options for one model, you get options for two very similar options that don't overlap enough to quite be called weapon options. There are no grenades, gun replacements, special scanners, magic scrolls, etc.

I just mostly wanted to clarify those facts since it seemed like a harsher light was being shed on the models than they deserved, at least for the reasons they were judged by. I try not to be a PP fanboy and I know they have done things I am not happy with -like releasing dawnguard destors in metal rather than plastic and making them a $100 unit. I do enjoy the game though, and I find more value from a 6 man unit of stormblades than I did from 20 kroot or 12 fire warriors back when I played 40k, and that is just from the fact that the one unit is all I'll ever need of them (ok, and game performance too).

Oh, and as for the exodus, I jumped ship just after 4ed hit so my continued ignoring of GW's offerings doesn't really affect them.

CT GAMER wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

...And your reasoning behind this would be...?

Nothing other then I have seen it over and over again since the early ninties...

Yes a few stoic individuals might just walk away, but most eventually return.

I would have agreed with you in the past, but I feel this time things have changed a little, at least for myself

- The price increases, inconvenient for some, have become irreconcilable for me living in RoW territory. I'm simply not willing to pay that much, and I'm DINK with a reasonable amount of disposable income. It has 'crossed the line' so to speak (even if I had a will to buy the models). I wonder if the stores closing in Japan are an indication of what is to come with RoW territory and the hobby. Certainly, I can't imagine that it can grow now.
- WD no longer being available in general newsagents and Smiths, less chance I will randomly see a mag on a shelf and pick it up. Almost zero internet presence or marketing.
- Perhaps this is my own fault for delving too deeply into the business practice of the company, but just completely losing faith with them. I think in some cases 'ignorance is bliss' and I had I not been aware of the recent policies of the company - of attempting to generate short term profit for dividend payments (with a large chunk of money going to the person who instigated them), while cutting down store staff, and slashing development budgets for new product, then I might well be willing to start another army again. But I see nothing remaining of the company which existed when I was a teenager. The company and all game, model and rule decisions are being made by money men who have no interest in the hobby, and their opinion of the customer (I used to work for the company, and speak to some people who still do occasionally) is just awful. I think that has been shown by the content of their decisions over the last couple of years.

But I think other than this the price will be the biggest issue. It is possible to play other games far, far more cheaply than GW's own. These other options did not have a significant presence even 10 years ago, but now they present a viable alternative. Most gamers don't come to forums such as these, but they will still make up their own mind about how much money they will be able to spend on the hobby.

I still haven't quit 40k, and I'm still buying at Australian retail prices. Hell, I even started a Vampire Counts army to go with my Tyranids. Two horde armies! Basically, my friends play GW games, and not other games. So if I moved on to other games, well, I'd not be playing them. So I'm sticking with GW games.

I have, however, slowed down in my purchases. Where in the past, when say Tyranid elites were about $30au, I'd have bought them in pairs every week until I had what I wanted. Now that they're $42au? One every couple of weeks. The price increase wasn't enough to make me give up, but it slowed me down.

Luckily my LGS sells stuff cheaper. $70au Grave Guard? He's got them for $50au still. Even new stuff is - $83au Storm of Magic book? $75au. That guy is getting my business, which gets him extra business because he stocks a lot of non GW hobby supplies, resin bases, etc. I also seek alternate models now. Reapers Wraiths, for example, are great, and $40us for 9.

Well, I got curious and added my Skaven up. Total at current retail price is "only" $525.50, but that's spending nearly 1000 points on lords and heroes.


On a more positive note, while I'm not sure what the standard point value for games of Dystopian Wars is, a 1500pt fleet costs well under $200.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I would prrofread your own post and duly edit it first Vulcan ;}

Eh. I'm not producing a game and then organizing tournaments with some fairly expensive prizes using those quite inconsistent and poorly worded rules. I'm just a slacker with a computer.

Just to add further to the discussion personally regarding price comparisons between GW and PP, I’ve found it easier to find good deals on PP products than it is for GW products. In my personal experience GW products tend to hover at RRP no matter where you buy them from (online or offline baring a few places like Maelstrom and Wayland) whereas PP products can differ quite a bit depending on where you buy. A couple of months ago, Maelstrom had Bane Thralls priced at £50ish whereas Wayland had them priced at £31.49. The Combat Company had Wrath priced at $35AUD whereas Defiant Gaming had it priced at $30AUD.

Pacific wrote:'ignorance is bliss'

Yeah, I agree with you there, I was definitely a lot happier when I didn't know the more intimate details about how GW runs their business. Things were much more exciting when I was just starting out and buying my first few models.

Which, by the way, were still priced too high even back then. I remember telling my dad about 40k after buying Dark Crusade and I couldn't stop saying "God they're expensive...but look at those Tau tanks, those are awesome." Eventually the models won over common sense and I've hated myself ever since.

ph34r wrote:
While even in the worst throes of GW's price terribleness, most (not all, looking at you blood knights, and hey even still blood knights are significantly better sculpts than PP)

My real life reaction, as detailed below:


This is ridiculous and while I acknowledge the old adage of "to each their own", it's still pretty ridiculous

cavalry is still $5-$10 for plastic with many bits options, infantry is $3-$5 for plastic models with a huge array of bits options, and ~$50 models like the talos and wraithlord are of comparable size to warjacks but with a vastly superior range of convertability, posability, and wargear options?

I have no comment on the Warmahordes rules as I don't play it, but hear the rules are well made and competitive.

Then you obviously don't understand anything. I can get a unit of Catachans or Cadians, which are some the fething most gak-tacular models I have ever seen, for 30 bucks. A single 10 man unit of moronic looking monkey-hand infantry that will have little impact on the game versus paying more per model for models that will have impact on the game?

Or paying 50 bucks for a warjack which is the lynchpin of your army or for something that will support your army? PP stuff is similar in price but the price in-game gives much better value than GW.

But for models? If you are quitting GW for price related reasons as likely most people who quit are, isn't it a sort of madness to switch to PP where prices are higher?

The only thing I would agree is that the prices are individually on par, but the in-game value that PP offers is MUCH, much better than GW and even you should realize this.

Sidstyler wrote:I was thinking about getting 9 each of the venoms and raiders so I'd be able to spam either one of them if I wanted. It's almost $600 just for that alone.

If you want to have a good army, or at least be able to field more than one build, it costs a fething fortune.

My Mech DE army, 1850p, cost me $450, plus another $30 for two characters that I added when I changed the list. I got the codex from a friend but that would have been another $25 or so.