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calypso2ts wrote:

Do you play SoB?

I have a small ~1250pt army yes.

You could already buy grenades for 1 ppm in the old codex and I never saw anyone who did (I will not go so far as to say no one did). This is because Sisters get MURDERED in assault.

*KRAK* grenades would make it worth it for some additional organic AT capability. Normal frag grenades no, but having both for 1pt wouldn't be a bad bargain.

What people who do not play SoB fail to understand is that for all they lost (the old Faith with Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr), Books of St. Lucius, Flying Nun they needed a points break to be competitive.

At 12ppm with BS4 S4 guns Ld8/9 with a 3+/6++sv with a cool faith ability (even if not super reliable, it's there and organic to the unit) isn't bad at all. What did you want, 9pt power armored infantry? Not gonna happen.

We don't have the full wargear list or unit options. Lets wait to see that before freaking out.


given that the book of st.lucius was primarily only useful in assault situations where sisters were losing anyway and simply drawing out the inevitable for another turn or two, it's not the hugest loss in the world.

Grenades (Frag/Krak) are worthless on a SoB squad

Having some ability to hurt walkers and inflict penetrating hits on just about anything that isn't a Land Raider without a faith point at all times is worthless? Exsqueeze me? Methinks we're being a bit chicken little here.

Please elaborate on why grenades for 1 point are worth it?

Because frag grenades are often worth it against several armies, and having S6 attacks against tanks and walkers is highly useful, especially when many units will be packing flamers and not meltaguns and otherwise would have no vector of attack against armor in a pinch. 1ppm is totally worth it. I know with my CSM's I'd have been screwed in more than one game had they not come with krak grenades, and I've lost dozens of chimeras and leman russ tanks to krak grenade assaults. That extra attack vector on troops that otherwise wouldn't be much of a threat or would only be situationally a threat (or to seal the deal if meltaguns fail) is awesome.

streamdragon wrote:Well, at least I still have my tyranids...

Pray they don't get a WD update.

aka_mythos wrote:

Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The concensus seemed to be they were underpriced...

That's because "the consensus" was made by noobs who have no damn clue what they're talking about.

Every time the point was raised it was that they were just a little under priced relative to similar units...

A Codex: Space Marine Tactical Marine is horribly, hideously underpriced compared to Sisters by that reasoning. They should be at least 20 pts per model. In fact, counting Combat Tactics and ATSKNF, they should probably be closer to 25 ppm. They have way too much for their statline going by pure points per model outlook.

Your position is nonsensical, and always has been. Stop repeating inane ideas based off of a philosophy with no grounding in reality, logic, reason, or sanity..

warboss wrote:People generally try to build their army to destroy MEQ and specifically deny that save whenever possible.. which works just as well on SOB.

And the 6+ save doesn't really help any.

Vaktathi wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:

Do you play SoB?

I have a small ~1250pt army so no.

Fix'd

Beerfart wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:

Do you play SoB?

I have a small ~1250pt army so no.

I'm a basement dwelling troll

Fix'd.

It's 1250pts of pure sisters, was running a 2000pt army when allies were still allowed at events. It's still an SoB army.

Name calling is obviously a personal attack and obviously against Dakka rules. Please review the rules ASAP. ~ Manchu

You need more practice with a bigger sisters army if you think grenades added anything at all to them...

And I don't see how name calling is warranted...

aka_mythos wrote:Here I will say in a qualitfied way GW does publish it for feedback, but its feedback from a limited group of people who would normally just get xeroxed handouts. They get another type of feedback in the form of sales of WD that show there is a strong SoB intrest. Sales of WD quantify to GW the degree of interest for an army, that given the amount of needed resources they could easily drop.

The thing is its totally self fulfilling. Bad rules & bad support means less sales so less sales means less support. Besides the new WD codex is really worth 18 dollars US (the price of 2 WD's). The Witch Hunter codex has more substantial value than this one does in terms of page count. Its has more fluff, more modelling info, and more units. Its a sad state really for those of us looking for a real codex and got stuck with this. I won't believe that we have a new dex coming out until its in my hands of I see

Beerfart wrote:You need more practice with a bigger sisters army if you think grenades added anything at all to them...

And I don't see how name calling is warranted...

When someone is asked if they have an SoB army, they reply yes, and then you say "no you don't" just because it's not a huge army but entirely playable, isn't exactly being constructive or adding anything but animosity to the conversation.

I dont understand the fascination with grenades.. Who cares. They're only I3 so they strike last vs any unit that matters regardless of grenades

Its like giving orks stikk bombs.. For marines it was a nice bonus but grenades should be 0 PTs per model because they are standard equipment

When someone is asked if they have an SoB army, they reply yes, and then you say "no you don't" just because it's not a huge army but entirely playable, isn't exactly being constructive or adding anything but animosity to the conversation.

At least it's not a blatant insult, you know, like calling someone a basement dwelling troll?

Perhaps you should go read the Dakka rules.

Vaktathi wrote:given that the book of st.lucius was primarily only useful in assault situations where sisters were losing anyway and simply drawing out the inevitable for another turn or two, it's not the hugest loss in the world.

I'm sorry, but I can't see this logic. I mean, even if you only ever play Annihilation - and I tend to play an even mix - surely you have situations where being able to draw 'out the inevitable for another turn or two' is a massively big deal, not to mention the impact on objective-centric scenarios.

andrewm9 wrote:The thing is its totally self fulfilling. Bad rules & bad support means less sales so less sales means less support. Besides the new WD codex is really worth 18 dollars US (the price of 2 WD's). The Witch Hunter codex has more substantial value than this one does in terms of page count. Its has more fluff, more modelling info, and more units. Its a sad state really for those of us looking for a real codex and got stuck with this. I won't believe that we have a new dex coming out until its in my hands of I see

And even without those issues, the ridiculously overpriced models coupled with the difficulty in obtaining said models (you have to order them from GW and get them sent to a GW store) restricts sales of Sisters even further. Even if this WD 'dex was the greatest codex in the world (meaning well-balanced, not hideously over-powered), GW would *still* have reduced sales of Sisters due to the hoops that you have to jump through to get the models coupled with the exorbitant cost.

Beerfart wrote:

When someone is asked if they have an SoB army, they reply yes, and then you say "no you don't" just because it's not a huge army but entirely playable, isn't exactly being constructive or adding anything but animosity to the conversation.

At least it's not a blatant insult, you know, like calling someone a basement dwelling troll?

Perhaps you should go read the Dakka rules.

re-writing a post and saying "fix'd" to basically say "your army isn't good enough for you to comment" is trolling. Plain and simple, that's all it is, trolling. My bad for responding to it in that way but certainly no worse than your behavior in that regard either. Lets leave it at that.

Mythal wrote:
I'm sorry, but I can't see this logic. I mean, even if you only ever play Annihilation - and I tend to play an even mix - surely you have situations where being able to draw 'out the inevitable for another turn or two' is a massively big deal, not to mention the impact on objective-centric scenarios.

Sure, sometimes it is a big deal. However, not always. Often in fact you'll want the unit to break so you can shoot the assaulter. Additionally, gaining the Krak Grenade attack vector is highly useful as well and I've had more than one game that was won or lost by units thusly equipped.

So this is ok?

Vaktathi wrote:

Beerfart wrote:

When someone is asked if they have an SoB army, they reply yes, and then you say "no you don't" just because it's not a huge army but entirely playable, isn't exactly being constructive or adding anything but animosity to the conversation.

At least it's not a blatant insult, you know, like calling someone a basement dwelling troll?

Perhaps you should go read the Dakka rules.

I'm a douche.

That's ok with you right?

Forgive me though, you're right, you've got 1250pts worth of sisters. You obviously know everything there is to know about how the army runs competetively. I wish you much success with your grenades and 6++ saves.

It's time to drop it.

Vaktathi wrote:Sure, sometimes it is a big deal. However, not always. Often in fact you'll want the unit to break so you can shoot the assaulter.

Which was why the BoSL was so amazing - it's rules said units may use the bearer's unmodified leadership, not that they must. So if you wanted your Sisters to break, you simply didn't take advantage of the Book - which, while it didn't guarantee failing a leadership check, meant you were no more likely to pass it than you were sans book. Seemples.

Anyway, moving on, I'm not entirely sure I see the value in giving Relentless to Heavy Bolter Command Squads. Multi-Meltas peeping out of the top of a Rhino, certainly, but the Heavy Bolters lack rending in Command Squad.

-redacting upon mod's request-

Which was why the BoSL was so amazing - it's rules said units may use the bearer's unmodified leadership, not that they must. So if you wanted your Sisters to break, you simply didn't take advantage of the Book - which, while it didn't guarantee failing a leadership check, meant you were no more likely to pass it than you were sans book. Seemples.

While useful, again it won't make or break Sisters units. They're at least getting some stuff in return that isn't exactly useless.

Grenades really don't add anything to Sisters

I've played around 50 2000pt+ games with my sisters... maybe more... never once have gernades mattered... at all... and I'd win most of the time. In fact, most folks around my FLGS call my sisters 'the cheaty army'. (most of that was the faith point 3++ though, and the stubborn book... everyone hates those). That and it's full of folks that play for the fluff and not competition... so they feel their one marine squad should rip through my entire army...


Movie marines can, of course, lol.

Grenades are flat out a waste of points on sisters....at least they were.

Vaktathi wrote:
given that the book of st.lucius was primarily only useful in assault situations where sisters were losing anyway and simply drawing out the inevitable for another turn or two, it's not the hugest loss in the world.

See, right there. I can tell you have not a SIMGLE clue what your talking about in regards to sisters. Yes sisters lose assualt, yes it would only draw it out another turn....which is important. Do you know WHY? Because it means we have the assualt end when its convienet for US, not the assualting army, so the squad pays for its charge later by eating flamers and bolters and DG. Now instead, they cut through with realative ease with nothing to slow them- like seraphim, like BoSL.

I'm really surprised that someone thinks an item that gives a unit the choice (which is rare) to use stubborn leadership or their modified by combat result leadership for 5 points is a "meh" item.

Hey I read the rumors.

Good bit of them from that page are wrong.

Beerfart wrote:

streamdragon wrote:Well, at least I still have my tyranids...

Pray they don't get a WD update.

Nids got worst than that...

They got 5th edition...

followed by a codex that doesn't adhere to 5th edition

Tabitha wrote:Hey I read the rumors.

Good bit of them from that page are wrong.

Please elaborate

carmachu wrote:

See, right there. I can tell you have not a SIMGLE clue what your talking about in regards to sisters. Yes sisters lose assualt, yes it would only draw it out another turn....which is important. Do you know WHY? Because it means we have the assualt end when its convienet for US, not the assualting army, so the squad pays for its charge later by eating flamers and bolters and DG. Now instead, they cut through with realative ease with nothing to slow them- like seraphim, like BoSL.

How often would you be assaulting them however? Relatively infrequently. Most of my games with and against sisters I've generally found it far more advantageous to just lose the squad and shoot the piss out of whatever unit it was that charged in. With the advent of the BP/CCW Chaos marine, BA Troops assault marine, SW Grey Hunter, DE Wyches/Wracks, there are far too many common units that even Seraphim had a difficult time engaging on a favorable basis even when charging, especially how often units like Seraphim get shot to piss before they can do anything in 5E without a transport.


I'm not saying that the BoSL was useless, I'm not. I'm saying that it's not the end of the world that some are making it out to be. Useful yes, good yes. Make or break the unit/army? No. Likewise, while assault grenades may be relatively useless, Krak grenades definitely are not, almost every game with my IG against a late 4E/5E Marine army I lose something to krak grenades. For 1pt more it's not a bad additional attack vector, especially on units that may otherwise be kitted such that they'd have no method of attack against an armored target otherwise.

Vaktathi wrote:

carmachu wrote:

See, right there. I can tell you have not a SIMGLE clue what your talking about in regards to sisters. Yes sisters lose assualt, yes it would only draw it out another turn....which is important. Do you know WHY? Because it means we have the assualt end when its convienet for US, not the assualting army, so the squad pays for its charge later by eating flamers and bolters and DG. Now instead, they cut through with realative ease with nothing to slow them- like seraphim, like BoSL.

How often would you be assaulting them however? Relatively infrequently. Most of my games with and against sisters I've generally found it far more advantageous to just lose the squad and shoot the piss out of whatever unit it was that charged in. With the advent of the BP/CCW Chaos marine, BA Troops assault marine, SW Grey Hunter, DE Wyches/Wracks, there are far too many common units that even Seraphim had a difficult time engaging on a favorable basis even when charging, especially how often units like Seraphim get shot to piss before they can do anything in 5E without a transport.


I'm not saying that the BoSL was useless, I'm not. I'm saying that it's not the end of the world that some are making it out to be. Useful yes, good yes. Make or break the unit/army? No. Likewise, while assault grenades may be relatively useless, Krak grenades definitely are not, almost every game with my IG against a late 4E/5E Marine army I lose something to krak grenades. For 1pt more it's not a bad additional attack vector, especially on units that may otherwise be kitted such that they'd have no method of attack against an armored target otherwise.

Krak>BoSL in a sisters army?

Are you serious?

In an army where melta is so readily availiable, krak grenades have no point whatsoever. I played that codex myself since it's release...and never once did I even entertain the thought of purchasing grenades for the girls. NOT ONCE.

If you want more tankbusting...you pick up more meltaguns somewhere....you don't spend points on Krak.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Krak>BoSL in a sisters army?

Are you serious?

Yeah it's seriously crazytown.

Can you point to where I put out a specific value on either, much less equated them in any way?

*AGAIN*, my point was that not only do we not have a full picture of wargear and options, but that losing BoSL isn't going to be the end of the world, and that anti-tank grenades are in fact rather useful. I didn't assign value to particular wargear or ability.

Has anyone thought that it might be possible that they're overvaluing or over-relying on BoSL (not that it's necessarily the case, but that it is *possible*) or that when we get a better picture of the wargear and options available to these units there may be something we aren't seeing that could change the picture? (or possibly not admittedly).

Without BoSL, footslogging sisters (arguably one of the most competetive power builds that codex can do right now) is totally out of the window.

It's bad for drive by units as well.

Any Veteran sisters army worth his salt would EASILY say, "take my Krak grenade option away" before "take away my BoSL"....and that is a fact.

BoSL saves squads from dying when they need to hang on by a thread, it's versitile, it's a wonderful ability.

....krak grenades give you a last ditch effort against SOME tanks when your multiple melta fail you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
Has anyone thought that it might be possible that they're overvaluing or over-relying on BoSL

Kind of l llike marine players overvalue ATSKNF....whatever "overvaluing" means.

It's a tool, a useful one....use it, exploit it if it grants you victory.

Vaktathi wrote:Can you point to where I put out a specific value on either, much less equated them in any way?

*AGAIN*, my point was that not only do we not have a full picture of wargear and options, but that losing BoSL isn't going to be the end of the world, and that anti-tank grenades are in fact rather useful. I didn't assign value to particular wargear or ability.

Has anyone thought that it might be possible that they're overvaluing or over-relying on BoSL (not that it's necessarily the case, but that it is *possible*) or that when we get a better picture of the wargear and options available to these units there may be something we aren't seeing that could change the picture? (or possibly not admittedly).

I think what people are getting at is, when have you ever assualted a tank and used your grenades? Never

I don't ever see people use them over their PF or melta.

you will never be charging into a tank because if your melta can't kill it then you probably get assualted my whats in that tank anyway. And you rarely want to assualt when you can rapid fire or sit in your tank and wait it out.