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According to Warseer it's possible that Saint Celistine does not have the IC rule.

I guess that explains her point cost and why no one will ever take her.

Melissia wrote:And as we all know, a 6+ invulnerable save is SO valuable to an army with a 3+ armor save.

Oh hells yeah!

With the amount of plasma and melta on the field, it'll save a model a turn. At 11 points a model minimum, that's 66 points of models saved over the course of a 6 turn game at least. Isn't that worth at least one point per dudeman? Considering the fact it could save an expensive model or a vehicle, you should count yourself fortunate it doesn't cost more.

/sarcasm mode off

sharkticon wrote:

Melissia wrote:And as we all know, a 6+ invulnerable save is SO valuable to an army with a 3+ armor save.

Oh hells yeah!

With the amount of plasma and melta on the field, it'll save a model a turn. At 11 points a model minimum, that's 66 points of models saved over the course of a 6 turn game at least. Isn't that worth at least one point per dudeman? Considering the fact it could save an expensive model or a vehicle, you should count yourself fortunate it doesn't cost more.

/sarcasm mode off

Especially with the rarity of 4+ cover saves in this edition!

Ixquic wrote:According to Warseer it's possible that Saint Celistine does not have the IC rule.

I guess that explains her point cost and why no one will ever take her.

Why would you run her in a squad anyway? She's an incredible fire magnet, I'd rather her get shot then something that stays down. Running her in a squad wastes her best ability.

Melissia wrote:And as we all know, a 6+ invulnerable save is SO valuable to an army with a 3+ armor save.

People generally try to build their army to destroy MEQ and specifically deny that save whenever possible.. which works just as well on SOB. The 6+ IS valuable considered there's plenty of times where people go to ground out in the open when the only other choice is complete annihilation.. and you don't have to give up your next turn to actually get the same effect. As for vehicles, it definitely comes in handy. For my old speed freak ork army, I bought the armor plate upgrade for EVERY vehicle (average around 8-10 in the army depending on size). At 5pt per upgrade, it only had to work ONCE to pay for the whole army's worth of upgrades. A 6+ invul is a good thing that people actually pay for in other armies. There are things to complain about in this new "codex" but the 6+ isn't one of them.

On the heavy flamers, in the IG book its 20 points and no squad can have more than one.

Ixquic wrote:According to Warseer it's possible that Saint Celistine does not have the IC rule.

I guess that explains her point cost and why no one will ever take her.

Ignore them. We already know she has the IC rule, thanks to last month's issue. Also some of the initial points-cost rumours have been slammed by other websites: BoK reported that Celestine is actually 175pts now, rather than 120pts.

warboss wrote:As for vehicles, it definitely comes in handy.

Except that vehicles (aside from Bjorn) can't take invulnerable saves without a pretty major errata.

That said, I agree that the 6++ is 'nice to have'. I disagree that it is as valuable, to a tactically minded player, as the old, limited-use 3++

Mythal wrote:

warboss wrote:As for vehicles, it definitely comes in handy.

Except that vehicles (aside from Bjorn) can't take invulnerable saves without a pretty major errata.

That said, I agree that the 6++ is 'nice to have'. I disagree that it is as valuable, to a tactically minded player, as the old, limited-use 3++

Anything that has a save can take one. I don't remember reading a place in the ruleebook stipulating that they can not just because they are vehicles. They are granted cover saves as normal.

ShumaGorath wrote:Anything that has a save can take one. I don't remember reading a place in the ruleebook stipulating that they can not just because they are vehicles.

In order to avoid derailing the thread, I'll point you to http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/387720.page

Also, in case you missed my answer to your previous question viz Terminators, 5 points.

Someone's reporting rumours that Canoness Command Squads are allowed 3 heavy weapons. If that's the case, Relentless Multimeltas could be the order of the day.

Greyish wrote:

Ixquic wrote:According to Warseer it's possible that Saint Celistine does not have the IC rule.

I guess that explains her point cost and why no one will ever take her.

Ignore them. We already know she has the IC rule, thanks to last month's issue. Also some of the initial points-cost rumours have been slammed by other websites: BoK reported that Celestine is actually 175pts now, rather than 120pts.

Yeah 175 points sounds a lot more reasonable for someone of her statline.

Mythal wrote:
Someone's reporting rumours that Canoness Command Squads are allowed 3 heavy weapons. If that's the case, Relentless Multimeltas could be the order of the day.

Ok that's kind of cool.

Ultimately an army with a 6++ has plenty going for it.

Mythal wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Anything that has a save can take one. I don't remember reading a place in the ruleebook stipulating that they can not just because they are vehicles.

In order to avoid derailing the thread, I'll point you to http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/387720.page

Also, in case you missed my answer to your previous question viz Terminators, 5 points.

Someone's reporting rumours that Canoness Command Squads are allowed 3 heavy weapons. If that's the case, Relentless Multimeltas could be the order of the day.

I'm thinking more like relentless heavy bolters. Even with the new points, I'm thinking that an army built around Jacobs, a cannoness with heavy bolter command squad with multimelta immolator, dominion squads with meltas in melta immolators, and what ever their devastators are called with heavy bolters and multi- melta immolators, filling the rest of the points with sisters squads to take objectives could be effective. Plenty of melta, plenty of dakka.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Ultimately an army with a 6++ has plenty going for it.

How do you figure?

Ixquic wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Ultimately an army with a 6++ has plenty going for it.

How do you figure?

It's a joke based off an old Pete Haines quote about the old, bad, Thousand Sons.

Consider that my history lesson for today!

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:Looks like some are getting looks of it in France.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2011/08/new-sisters-of-battle-white-dwarf.html

Now I am a little sad. I was hoping for a point decrease or atleast stay the same....... /cry

Lets be honest, for the basic SoB, there wasn't really much standing for a points decrease, at 11ppm, they were already really good. Not sure if a pts decrease was in order, will have to see their new abilities and wargear, but if they get grenades for that 1pt, not a bad trade.

Melissia wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The concensus seemed to be they were underpriced...

That's because "the consensus" was made by noobs who have no damn clue what they're talking about.

I think you're silly. Every time the point was raised it was that they were just a little under priced relative to similar units... we're talking a fraction of a point per model. A single point bump for an entire squad getting a little bit more equipment... I think its justified, it pushes them up enough of a fraction to round up. I'm just looking at this on a single unit basis, without consideration to the rest of the army. I know there are more outstanding issues with it, but this doesn't strike me as the deathknell issue.

Sersi wrote:
Um...no. If GW wanted feedback, or more open about codex development; then they would post experimental rules up on their site like, say Forgeworld. They would setup an email address or some other method for receiving said feedback. This was about putting something...anything in WD that was less blatant advertising. Do you honestly believe that actual effort was put into this?

Would GW? Would a company working on a 1990's buisness model really rely on new technology in that way? I don't think so. There is a difference between doing something for a reason and doing something well. GW did this for a reason, they just didn't do it very well.

Also I never said they were looking for feedback just that they were being more open about development.

Sersi wrote:
I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh. But people need to stop with this "GW's look for feedback"...."oh its a test codex business". It's speculation. We have no evidence for that and it's wishful thinking. If they wanted feedback they would have asked for it.

Here I will say in a qualitfied way GW does publish it for feedback, but its feedback from a limited group of people who would normally just get xeroxed handouts. They get another type of feedback in the form of sales of WD that show there is a strong SoB intrest. Sales of WD quantify to GW the degree of interest for an army, that given the amount of needed resources they could easily drop.

After some thought, this army does not look as bad as it seems.

based off the point totals so far, you should be able to fit something like this in 2000 points:

Cannoness
Command Squad with 3 Heavy Bolters, Dialogous, Similcrum, Immolator with multimeltas

Uriah Jacobs, Protector of the Faith

10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas

Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas

Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas

Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas

Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas

Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas

That would give you 3 scouting units with meltas in transports with multi-meltas for first turn melta-strikes, 4 more immolators to keep up the meltaness, 4 rhinos full of bolter and flame - that the immolators can get cover from and still fire from behind, and 15 heavy bolters - 12 of which can be rending, to put pressure on enemy infantry. This seems like a solid army, it may end up being a monobuild army, but more solid than say necrons or tyranids.

Somebody pm me when it's time in this thread to start making fun of the people that thought sisters were going to be O.K. when the point costs come out....

aka_mythos wrote:Here I will say in a qualitfied way GW does publish it for feedback, but its feedback from a limited group of people who would normally just get xeroxed handouts. They get another type of feedback in the form of sales of WD that show there is a strong SoB intrest. Sales of WD quantify to GW the degree of interest for an army, that given the amount of needed resources they could easily drop.

Which is of course why they didn't even print enough copies of the first half to supply those with subscriptions to White Dwarf, let alone those who just picked it up for the "codex"? I mean, Sisters aren't even the focus of the issue; Vampire Counts take up way more space, heck I'm fairly certain LotR takes up more space! So, reach all you like, but GW couldn't care less what its consumers think. If they did, they'd have an official forum like just about every other company out there. Oh wait, they had one and shut it down.

But it cares how you spend, which was my point.

I would put it more precisely at "they care that you spend", not how.

On an entirely separate note: Anyone find it funny that Cruddace's article on his army mentions starting a command squad? He shows 9 models, yet his own list limits them to 5 models. GG Cruddace.

Vaktathi wrote:...but if they get grenades for that 1pt, not a bad trade.

Do you play SoB? You could already buy grenades for 1 ppm in the old codex and I never saw anyone who did (I will not go so far as to say no one did). This is because Sisters get MURDERED in assault.

What people who do not play SoB fail to understand is that for all they lost (the old Faith with Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr), Books of St. Lucius, Flying Nun they needed a points break to be competitive.

Grenades (Frag/Krak) are worthless on a SoB squad (who could previously use Hand of the Emperor to make 2 S5 attacks on a vehicle). What we have is a statline nerf on many units (Seraphim, Celestians) coupled with a points increase justified by the inclusion of grenades and a 6++ save.

Please elaborate on why grenades for 1 point are worth it?

Edit: sharkticon - that list is not going to cut it in a normal game. I predict it gets blown off the table by Turn 2 without inflicting any damage on the enemy.

sharkticon wrote:After some thought, this army does not look as bad as it seems.

based off the point totals so far, you should be able to fit something like this in 2000 points: -snip-

Actually, I totalled that up to over 2250 points - but obviously that's going off rumours, rather than the actual numbers (which I won't have to hand until Saturday).

Hey look...Chaos does melta/Flamer drive by better than sisters....

HQ

Lash Sorcerer

ELITE

5 chosen w/3xMelta
Rhino w/Combi-Flamer
5 chosen w/3xMelta
Rhino w/Combi-Flamer
5 chosen w/3xMelta
Rhino w/Combi-Flamer

TROOPS

5xChaos marines w/1xMelta, Vet w/Combi-Melta
Rhino w/combi-Flamer
5xChaos marines w/1xMelta, Vet w/Combi-Melta
Rhino w/combi-Flamer
5xChaos marines w/1xMelta, Vet w/Combi-Melta
Rhino w/combi-Flamer
5xChaos marines w/1xMelta, Vet w/Combi-Melta
Rhino w/combi-Flamer
5xChaos marines w/1xMelta, Vet w/Combi-Melta
Rhino w/combi-Flamer
5xChaos marines w/1xMelta, Vet w/Combi-Melta
Rhino w/combi-Flamer

HEAVY

5xHavocs w/3xMelta
Rhino w/combi-Flamer
5xHavocs w/3xMelta
Rhino w/Combi-Flamer
5xHavocs w/3xMelta
Rhino w/combi-Flamer

-2000 pts.


Will sisters be able to bring this much firepower? Nope...but hey...at least they've got 6++'s right?

sharkticon wrote:After some thought, this army does not look as bad as it seems.

based off the point totals so far, you should be able to fit something like this in 2000 points:

Cannoness
Command Squad with 3 Heavy Bolters, Dialogous, Similcrum, Immolator with multimeltas

Uriah Jacobs, Protector of the Faith

10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

10 Battle Sisters, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Rhino

Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas

Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas

Dominion Squad, with veteran, similcurum, meltas, immolator with multimeltas

Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas

Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas

Retributor Squad with veteran, similcurum, heavy bolters, immolator with multimeltas

That would give you 3 scouting units with meltas in transports with multi-meltas for first turn melta-strikes, 4 more immolators to keep up the meltaness, 4 rhinos full of bolter and flame - that the immolators can get cover from and still fire from behind, and 15 heavy bolters - 12 of which can be rending, to put pressure on enemy infantry. This seems like a solid army, it may end up being a monobuild army, but more solid than say necrons or tyranids.

Now way in hell will that fit in 2k. The basic squads will ring in at 800 alone. 450 in immolators. And remember, each successful act to rend on Rets get you a whole one rend. 12 shots, 8 hit, 1 6 to wound. The old sisters made rending scary because they'd hit you 25+ times between 2-3 flamer templates.

The new basic SoB is NOT worth 12 points. Not after the faith nerfs. Grenades = worthless. The new SoB squads have no business charging anything except grots and Tau. Pistol = mostly worthless. It gives you a whole 6 or so WS3 S3 I3 attacks when that marine squad you just annoyed with bolter fire charges you, which won't even average a wound on them.

If Seraphim are really 15p each, the new 'workable' list is likely to revolve around them.

Vaktathi wrote:Lets be honest, for the basic SoB, there wasn't really much standing for a points decrease, at 11ppm, they were already really good. Not sure if a pts decrease was in order, will have to see their new abilities and wargear, but if they get grenades for that 1pt, not a bad trade.

It's a horrible trade. Giving a unit that wants to stand and rapid-fire assault grenades is like putting tits on a bull. Whatever. A 6++ is a throw-in. It's like some armies getting night vision/acute senses. It adds flavour, but being unreliable, it doesn't amount to much.

11 PPM was good when orks were 9 points and guard were 6. When they dropped in cost, it stopped being quite such a bargain. Compared to a tactical marine, a sister loses 1S, 1T, 1I, and ATSKNF. They take 1/3rd more casualties to the most common anti-infantry weapons in the game. They don't stand up in assault, although they need to get close to be effective if they're not a horde. At this price, a horde isn't viable. They can't take any weapons of significant range either, and they can't combat squad for added flexibility. How is 11 points reasonable in the current environment?

What good are 3 squads with Heavy Flamers now? You cant make them rending so its just a heavy flamer. It will kill Guards, orks and nids. That about it ....

And for my efforts I get charged and decimated in a single round. Without our stubborn books and our weak statline

No fear though, i can regroup with a faith point if they dont over run me with their higher Initiatives.

No fear though b/c we have amazing elites to go up against terminators 2+ right? Oh ... we dont ....

So once again we turn to our heavy support, praying the Exorcists kill everything. Or Retributor Squads for you ...

Well, at least I still have my tyranids...