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You get kroot in rogue trader too IIRC.

Melissia wrote:You get kroot in rogue trader too IIRC.

Yeah, rules for making Ork and Kroot characters are in the "Into the Storm" Rogue Trader supplement.

If you took one to the chest, I imagine that you wouldn't die from bleeding out but rather having your internal organs obliterated, but I have read in some books people bleeding out form it, I have no clue how this would happen. Sort of like the "He doesn't like you, I don't like you either" guy in Star Wars

Lasers don't always burn or cauterize, it depends entirely on how the laser operates. If you fire the laser in a very short pulse (say microseconds to nanoseconds) and you concentrate it on a small area (say millimeters) you can create a miniature "explosion" due to the rapid vaporization of the surface matter. Depending on how the laser is designed (how many pulses, how much energy per pulse, etc.) you can drill a hole in a target, blast a big crater in them, or even slice a person in half with about the same energy modern rifles utilize via gunpowder. From what I hear, a laser operating in that fashion won't cauterize - at least not at those energies.

Funny enough this is even how lasguns are depicted in some of the fluff (most notably the Wargear book from 2nd edition, the 3rd edition core rules, the old Necromunda "Confrontation" rules, etc.)

I'm not sure entirely what is needed to create "cauterization" type lasgun effects though, probably heat ray that causes steam explosions (or very penetrative radiation to cook the target, maybe.)

Here is a question?
Lasgun on High setting: will it go trough it's target and hit the one behind it and so on until it gets out of power or it will just explode on first target?

I'd theorize that it would still cause an explosion on the target surface (as that's how they were described in general), just that it would leave a bigger crater as the higher energy results in a faster temperature rise and, with that, affect a greater area.

I'm no physicist, but wouldn't the temparature rise (which ultimately leads to the explosion) "travel" faster along the surface area than "into" the material itself? i.e. the hole may not be much deeper, but it would definitely be wider?

Speaking of settings - which regiment uses the Triplex-pattern, anyways? That's the only one which seems to have this slider, but I have never seen it associated with a specific force, only that it's uncommon. The short blurb in the 5E Guard Codex covered what patterns the most popular regiments use, but didn't give a regiment for the Triplex.

The Mars Pattern Short Lasgun-- the standard, most common pattern throughout the galaxy-- has at least two settings (IIUP, p20). In fact, in the Gaunt's Ghosts series, two settings (low and high) are standard. High is rarely used as it has attrocious ammo consumption and barrel damage, but it's there as an option.

It's very likely that those that DON'T have two power settings are the exception, not the rule.


Stats for the MPSL:

● Weight: 2.3kg
● Length: 90cm
● Fire modes: Semi-auto and full auto
● Rate of fire: 220 shots/minute
● Intensity settings: Low/High
● Adjustable back/front sights, rails for laser sights or optics

Not according to the 5E Guard Codex:

"The lasgun is the universal small arm of the Imperial Guard, but there are a great many models, marks and patterns in service. The Cadian Shock Troops, for example, commonly bear the M36 lasrifle, originally manufactured on Kantrael, a weapon known for its robustness. The Catachan Jungle Fighters bear the Mk 4 lascarbine, which has less cowling than the M36 and is therefore lighter and easier to carry in close environments. Other common marks include the easily manufactured Mars and Armageddon lasguns, the much sought after variable power setting Triplex pattern, and the short-barrelled, folding-stock models used by mechanized infantry, tank crews and troops on starship detail. Even more exotic are the intricately wrought heirloom weapons of the Vostroyan Firstborn, and the Accatran pattern mark IV, much valued by the Elysians and other drop troopers for its compactness and utility at short range."

This is mirrored in GW's Inquisitor RPG, where you can choose between the Mars-, Necromunda- and Triplex-pattern. Only the Triplex has variable power settings, and only the Necromunda can do more than single shots.

I actually recall having seen the Mars-pattern depicted with a power slider, too - and have erroneously complained about this missing from DH a long time ago - but I'm not quite sure if that was just in BL's Primer or an older GW book. Either way, the above is, I think, at least the current stance from the people at the studio. As always, interpretations in licensed products such as the GG novels may present a different image, be it due to age (referencing older material) or due to author's choice.

Or it could be because they honestly don't care about these kinds of niggling details and leave it up to the reader/author/random chance of fate to decide?

That's what I meant. Well, in a way - obviously they do care about these details, else they wouldn't have written them down - but there is no consistency between the material, so everyone may just as well pick what he or she thinks fits best...

I think I've come around to accept that studio material isn't any more canon than licensed products now. Of course, this only means that we end up with a gazillion different ideas, none of whom is "wrong". That makes threads such as this one a bit more complicated, but I guess the best way would be to treat the information from the books (any books) as "suggestions".

Personally, I'll continue to stick to the studio material, but I will admit that this doesn't make me any more "right" than someone who prefers, say, the GG books or the Primer. Or, for what it's worth, his own ideas! In the future, I'll try to voice my posts accordingly, though I think the last sentence of the above post already works nice as a disclaimer.

I think most people would agree that fan-fiction is itself not actually in-universe. It's fan-fiction. Basically, anything that's licensed or produced by GW is essentially "canon".

Personally, I prefer the IIUP as a source because of its depth of information and the fact that it is written from an in-universe perspective. Sure, its information about xenos is wrong-- intentionally so, because said information is propaganda. But its information on equipment is very precise, even showing how to maintain the equipment

Melissia wrote:I think most people would agree that fan-fiction is itself not actually in-universe. It's fan-fiction. Basically, anything that's licensed or produced by GW is essentially "canon".

"Canon" (in the sense of material that would establish rules for the background) implies at least an attempt at consistency between the various origins of material, though, which does not exist, nor does it seem to be desired. That's coming directly from people who have written these licensed products. In fact, ...

"To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
- Gav Thorpe

Invented Space Marine Chapters and Elector Counts are arguably fan-fiction, and if those are to be compared to the Black Library then both are of equal optional value for everyone's personal idea of the setting.
My opinion on this subject didn't change, but I've come to realize that not even GW's own books constitute canon. Another Dakkanaut recently swayed me with this line, also coming from Thorpe: "With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy."

The Uplifting Primer, of which I have both the original as well as the Damocles Gulf edition, is of course a very well written piece of literature. Like you, I very much love its detail and the in-universe perspective. However, the level of precision does not make the information contained in it any more "right" or "wrong" than any other product, or indeed even fan-fiction. It's just another source for inspiration.
Like BL's Xenology, which is likewise written from an in-universe perspective - yet for all my love for the little snippets in there, I personally just do not believe that Tau have toes instead of hooves, for example. Or that all Imperial Guardsmen, including the half-naked "barbarian" regiments, carry the vast list of modern equipment printed in the Primer (when the Codex clearly points out that the only standard item is a lasgun of some pattern)... But that's just me, based on my own set of preferences.

Tl;dr: Nobody is right, nobody is wrong.

At least as far as GW seems to be concerned. You're quite right in pointing out that the majority of fans may have a different opinion concerning the validity of fan-fiction, as that's just how a franchise is normally run. I don't really like the absence of canonicity myself and would have much preferred an approach more like with Star Wars, but this is just what we have for 40k now. I guess this may be a result out of the wargaming aspect and that GW has always wanted its players to "make the setting their own", what with giving advice on how to do a custom Marine Chapter and all.

Quite off-topic, I know, but I think it's an important thing that should be discussed to prevent other posters' opinions from being invalidated due to a supposed canon that does not exist...

Brother Coa wrote:Here is a question?
Lasgun on High setting: will it go trough it's target and hit the one behind it and so on until it gets out of power or it will just explode on first target?

Again it depends on how the weapon works and which fluff you read. Lasguns have overpenetrated like hell in some novels (Death World) or only exploded on contactw ith the surface (3rd edition codex) and everything in between.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:I think most people would agree that fan-fiction is itself not actually in-universe. It's fan-fiction. Basically, anything that's licensed or produced by GW is essentially "canon".

Personally, I prefer the IIUP as a source because of its depth of information and the fact that it is written from an in-universe perspective. Sure, its information about xenos is wrong-- intentionally so, because said information is propaganda. But its information on equipment is very precise, even showing how to maintain the equipment

-attempting to preempt another canon debate-

I think its a valid source of information, but I tend to be a bit skeptical of taking it all at face value because a.) it clearly is meant to be absurd (out of universe at least - not that I mind that), and b.) in universe it is also meant to be sort of "company policy" for the IG as outlined by the munitorum. The Munitorum Manual (which I like myself) is in the same way. I also tend to treat the Codexes as the same thing, because those tend to be propaganda heavy as well (CF 5th edition Space Marine codex and the Ultramarines love.) It's also hard to completely, absolutely buy the idea that an Imperium that does not know how many planets or Space Marine chapters it actually has can micromanage things to the planetary level to insure everyone follows what they say to the letter (Which they don't.) It's more what they want/think people to do and hope it works.

That isn't to say the novels are better per se, they offer a different perspective - sort of the "ground level" view - it shows you how things might be filtering in from the top (what does and doesn't hold, etc.) but it tends to only show you part of the overall picture, and what holds in one place may not hold for another.

The funny part is, I tend to like the FFG most for the "fluff" value - it tends to fall somewhere in between novels and the codexes, and it has a more objective tone to it when it does speak on things. Which again isn't to say everything the FFG RPGS say is absolute truth either. You have to look at everything to get the clear picture, really.

Which, incidentally, usually means you have to spend more money on GW products. Interesting coincidence wouldn't ya say?

In the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, the Sabbat War series, "low power" seems to be used for target practice and training exercises, as a "low power" las setting, at least in a few of the mentions Abnett gives it, is non-lethal.

Lynata wrote:That's what I meant. Well, in a way - obviously they do care about these details, else they wouldn't have written them down - but there is no consistency between the material, so everyone may just as well pick what he or she thinks fits best...

I think I've come around to accept that studio material isn't any more canon than licensed products now.

Now, to work on convincing you Hellguns could scorch Power Armour.

Hellguns do more than scorch power armor... they're designed to blow right through it. I suppose if you were firing a hellgun at an oblique and hit a curved part of the pauldron or breastplate it might just glance off and scorch it...

Wow, we went from lasguns to gaming to fluff to lasguns. We. Fething. Win.

Psienesis wrote:Hellguns do more than scorch power armor... they're designed to blow right through it. I suppose if you were firing a hellgun at an oblique and hit a curved part of the pauldron or breastplate it might just glance off and scorch it...

If it is written from guard perspective, their super-mega-awesome hellguns will headshot titans, if it is written from SM perspective, you will see their armour taking lascannon shots for gaks and giggles.

Every armies codex makes them seem super unstoppable. Except tau they make you seem like a worthless piece-o-gak.

From a player's perspective, though, hellguns pop power armor like it was paper.

Using the DH tables:

Standard Power Armor (non-Astartes): Armor Rating 8
Cadian-pattern Hellgun: Penetration 7, plus 1d10+4 Energy damage (with 3-round burst fire capability)

Even minimum damage from a Hellgun penetrates Power Armor, and then is resisted by the target's Toughness. Against most non-Astartes targets, they're going to take a point of damage, given average Toughness values.
(Maths: Hellgun damage roll of 1+4= 5 damage, Pen 7 ignores 7 of the PA's 8 AR, remaining 1 AR reduces 5 damage to 4, average Toughness Bonus of 3 reduces 4 damage to 1 damage taken by target). Of course, most people you find in PA aren't "average" by any means, but I'm just using "stock flunky" in power armor for illustrative purposes. There isn't (yet) a "Plot Armor" Talent to purchase (at least, not *quite*).

With a 3-round burst of average damage, that's 9 points per hit, the target soaking only 4 of those damage per, so taking 15 total damage. If you're playing with the "Only Human" optional rule, the next salvo, assuming average damage, is going to pulp this guy (25 Wounds, given Only Human limitations, takes 30 damage over 2 rounds, is now in a +5 Critical Wounds effect... that's pretty much dead, at the best that's "really, seriously, terribly fethed up")

Astartes armor is AR 10 on the torso, and they're much tougher, and so shrug off the damage much more extensively... but the shot's still penetrating the armor, even on minimum damage (Pen 7 + 5 damage= 12 damage, 2 gets through to the Marine, who ignores it, but, still.).

Psienesis wrote:From a player's perspective, though, hellguns pop power armor like it was paper.

Using the DH tables:

Standard Power Armor (non-Astartes): Armor Rating 8
Cadian-pattern Hellgun: Penetration 7, plus 1d10+4 Energy damage (with 3-round burst fire capability)

Even minimum damage from a Hellgun penetrates Power Armor, and then is resisted by the target's Toughness. Against most non-Astartes targets, they're going to take a point of damage, given average Toughness values.
(Maths: Hellgun damage roll of 1+4= 5 damage, Pen 7 ignores 7 of the PA's 8 AR, remaining 1 AR reduces 5 damage to 4, average Toughness Bonus of 3 reduces 4 damage to 1 damage taken by target). Of course, most people you find in PA aren't "average" by any means, but I'm just using "stock flunky" in power armor for illustrative purposes. There isn't (yet) a "Plot Armor" Talent to purchase (at least, not *quite*).

With a 3-round burst of average damage, that's 9 points per hit, the target soaking only 4 of those damage per, so taking 15 total damage. If you're playing with the "Only Human" optional rule, the next salvo, assuming average damage, is going to pulp this guy (25 Wounds, given Only Human limitations, takes 30 damage over 2 rounds, is now in a +5 Critical Wounds effect... that's pretty much dead, at the best that's "really, seriously, terribly fethed up")

Astartes armor is AR 10 on the torso, and they're much tougher, and so shrug off the damage much more extensively... but the shot's still penetrating the armor, even on minimum damage (Pen 7 + 5 damage= 12 damage, 2 gets through to the Marine, who ignores it, but, still.).

Again, though. From a fluff perspective, 100% source. Source is the only factor in fluff.

Meh, it's not the only interpretation from Forgeworld I'd deem questionable/incompatible with the setting - and henceforth not include into my personal perception. Leaving scorch marks is something I can see lasguns do, but not hellguns. Actually, the idea of las shots ricocheting off the armour (?!) sounds fairly weird in general.

A matter of preferences, I suppose. We can only agree to disagree.

Jeez, I was just joking. That really made the thread go off in an unexpected direction.

I never expected it either, its pretty awesome actually