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English Assassin wrote:Other way around, FFG say they can't be, my precious Rogue Trader hardbacks say they can.

Edit: otherwise, yes, what you said.

FFG says that they are more resistant to Chaos corruption than humans are, not immune. There is a distinct difference.

Sure, in mechanical terms, FFG decided the phenomenon is so rare that it might as well be impossible (And they're not wrong to think that, how often do you hear of Orks falling to Chaos? And it's not hard to explain, they have the backing of two deities more powerful than even the Chaos Gods), and as such decided they don't accrue corruption points.

I don't really see a contradiction.

Void__Dragon wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Other way around, FFG say they can't be, my precious Rogue Trader hardbacks say they can.

Edit: otherwise, yes, what you said.

FFG says that they are more resistant to Chaos corruption than humans are, not immune. There is a distinct difference.

Sure, in mechanical terms, FFG decided the phenomenon is so rare that it might as well be impossible (And they're not wrong to think that, how often do you hear of Orks falling to Chaos? And it's not hard to explain, they have the backing of two deities more powerful than even the Chaos Gods), and as such decided they don't accrue corruption points.

I don't really see a contradiction.

I bow before you Void_Dragon for explaining the situation better than I could, due to problems with my internet. Yes, as far as i can tell there are no contradictions other than ones people made in their minds. Hell, isn't their fluff that states the Orks gods in the Warp are invincible?

How did we get from lasguns to this again? Not saying I don't absolutely love this but how did we manage that? Congratulations Dakka members, we're awesome.

English Assassin wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The weak parts of power armour AREN'T ARMOURED.

... yes they are.

In Deathwatch, the weak parts of the armor have two less armor value than the strongest parts. They're still stronge than any other kind of armor even in the weak spots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAngrySquig wrote:So then they are capable of totally vaporizing Space Marines in power armor right

Lascannons? Yes, they're pretty much enough to demolish any power armor that they directly hit, leaving a nice clean hole through most power armored opponents unless they're guarded by a force field of some kind. Though infantry-mounted lascannons aren't as hug as vehicle-mounted ones as far as actual area of effect...

Well there is some annoying contradiction in fluff about that.

It is a fact that lascannon hit=something dies. But there have been stupid BL instances where terminators and even regular marines have shrugged off lascannons.

Just goes to show, BL=BS.

Also, in Deathwatch Space Marines do things that would make Matt Ward blush, it is just a game mechanic.

Much as I disagree with the implication that we should accept Fantasy Flight's stuff as canonical, it would be, in this instance, be reasonable (and consistent with pretty much all fluff) to assume that the joints of a suit of power armour are 'armoured' in the sense that they're presumably made of, oh I don't know what to call it, rubberized ceramite sounds plausible, but, since they must be flexible, will be weaker than the plates.

So far as lascannons go, Black Library probably don't let more than one Marine in six survive direct hits from them, do they?

Of course the joints would be 'armored' but with a rubber like armor material instead of metallic armor so that the Marine can move. Its common sense.

There is an illness you can get once being shot with a lasgun, it related to me as some sort of blood poisoning.

There is an illness when you get hiy by Las shot, it's called death.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:So then how do lascannons work? Is it like a Spartan laser from halo or is like a mini deathstar cannon

A Lascannon is what's known as a Pulse Laser; rather than a constant beam of fire, it just fires one burst that's absolutely packed with energy, which is why the Lascannon doesn't have the Lance rule.

Also, Lasguns would only Cauterize the wound they hit if they use Infrared light or something near that; if the light is, say, Ultraviolet, the las beam could simply slice straight through you.

Your physics is broken.
It doesn't matter if the light is visible or not. If it is absorbed by your body it turns into heat.
UV, IR and visibleare all capable of cauterising. Whether it does or not is another matter, it's more of a steam explosion.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The weak parts of power armour AREN'T ARMOURED.

... yes they are.

In Deathwatch, the weak parts of the armor have two less armor value than the strongest parts. They're still stronge than any other kind of armor even in the weak spots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAngrySquig wrote:So then they are capable of totally vaporizing Space Marines in power armor right

Lascannons? Yes, they're pretty much enough to demolish any power armor that they directly hit, leaving a nice clean hole through most power armored opponents unless they're guarded by a force field of some kind. Though infantry-mounted lascannons aren't as hug as vehicle-mounted ones as far as actual area of effect...

Well there is some annoying contradiction in fluff about that.

It is a fact that lascannon hit=something dies. But there have been stupid BL instances where terminators and even regular marines have shrugged off lascannons.

Just goes to show, BL=BS.

Also, in Deathwatch Space Marines do things that would make Matt Ward blush, it is just a game mechanic.

Much as I disagree with the implication that we should accept Fantasy Flight's stuff as canonical, it would be, in this instance, be reasonable (and consistent with pretty much all fluff) to assume that the joints of a suit of power armour are 'armoured' in the sense that they're presumably made of, oh I don't know what to call it, rubberized ceramite sounds plausible, but, since they must be flexible, will be weaker than the plates.

So far as lascannons go, Black Library probably don't let more than one Marine in six survive direct hits from them, do they?

Of course the joints would be 'armored' but with a rubber like armor material instead of metallic armor so that the Marine can move. Its common sense.

Yes. I can't remember if it was RT or 2 ed but in one of my old books there was an in depth description of how power armour works and the bit that boosted strength was a synthetic muscle. It covered the whole body and gave an armour effect. The plates went on top of that. A weak point would then be a bit without plates but with synthetic muscle.

Or it could just be where interlocking plates meet.

TheAngrySquig wrote:How did we get from lasguns to this again? Not saying I don't absolutely love this but how did we manage that? Congratulations Dakka members, we're awesome.

..

People started arguing about the weak points in a sm armor be unarmored or not and someone brought up deathwatch.

Brother Coa wrote:There is an illness when you get hiy by Las shot, it's called death.

.
I hear that can be quite serious if left untreated...

Isnt the color of a laser determined by its frequency, hence its power? Like blu ray is more powerful then red red ect? So would the color of a lasgun bolt indicate its power level? or would it be purely cosmetic?

Wouldn't lasguns be pulse lasers also? They don't fire constant beams of light.

Correct, they'd be pulse. It's cutting lasers and lances that are stream weapons.

Both of which the Imperium has I should note, but lances aren't weaponized outside of space platforms (lance batteries), and cutting lasers aren't really weaponized at all, though they certainly can be used as a weapon they're rather unwieldy.

Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

In theory, cauterising should be irrelevant on lasguns.
They should noty actually slice or do normal wounds at all.

A weapon level pulsed laser (like a lasgun, not a beam) would have to impart a huge amount of energy in a tiny amount of time, into a very small area. When you do that, stuff doesn't "heat up" or cut. It explodes. Badly.
As an example, a 1 Megajoule laser pulse would have the same effect (or amount of energy at least) as 200 grams of TNT.

I don't know what kind of power lasguns have, but I suspect the effects would, in reality, be very messy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, for the more scientific among you, here is an interesting discussion on possible power levels for lasguns:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=106186&sid=998a1080693905de297a22063e91c4b8

(Well, I say interesting, it's actually incredibly sad like most stuff on stardestroyer.net, but it interests ME, as it lets me get my geek on).

Harrower wrote:In theory, cauterising should be irrelevant on lasguns.
They should noty actually slice or do normal wounds at all.

A weapon level pulsed laser (like a lasgun, not a beam) would have to impart a huge amount of energy in a tiny amount of time, into a very small area. When you do that, stuff doesn't "heat up" or cut. It explodes. Badly.
As an example, a 1 Megajoule laser pulse would have the same effect (or amount of energy at least) as 200 grams of TNT.

I don't know what kind of power lasguns have, but I suspect the effects would, in reality, be very messy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, for the more scientific among you, here is an interesting discussion on possible power levels for lasguns:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=106186&sid=998a1080693905de297a22063e91c4b8

(Well, I say interesting, it's actually incredibly sad like most stuff on stardestroyer.net, but it interests ME, as it lets me get my geek on).

You should also check this out as its a newer posts and revisions by th SD.net: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=150910

Why do you consider what they do sad? They are doing what they love and enjoy as a hobby just like you do what you love for a hobby.

Is their a difference between the Catachan Cadian Vostroyan and Vallhalan lasguns relative to power? I always imagined the Catachan as needing more power to go through underbrush and the like, Cadian being average, Vostroyan being the cheapest to produce, and Vallhalan being the same as Catachan, only to burst through ice not forest

Vostroyan Firstborn are actually the highest quality ones, not the cheapest. Each one is hand-crafted and decorated lovingly by their family and friends before they're shipped off.

Catachans likely use shorter versions, perhaps bullpups or carbines, for mobility purposes, a locally produced carbine version of the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun is likely.

Cadians use (and Kanluwen will likely correct me on this if I'm wrong) either the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun or a variation thereof produced locally.

Valhallans... I'm not sure. The Cain books didn't mention any notable differences, so probably a local variation of the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun.

Krieg lasguns are longer and have more power, almost like bolt action rifles, always firing on the highest setting.

Tanith 1st and Only use several kinds (favoring the lasguns that were locally produced at Tanith before its death), mostly using lasguns with a specific type of battery which has caused supply problems.

Thanks and is this from the codex because I leafed through and couldn't find it?

Isn't the M-class Lasgun the supposed main class of Lasgun in the galaxy?

Sorry for the noob but, whats the M-class?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Isn't the M-class Lasgun the supposed main class of Lasgun in the galaxy?

The Mars-Pattern Short Lasgun is the standard lasgun of the Imperial Guard.

This from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifiting Primer.

Melissia wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Isn't the M-class Lasgun the supposed main class of Lasgun in the galaxy?

The Mars-Pattern Short Lasgun is the standard lasgun of the Imperial Guard.

This from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifiting Primer.

M-class could refer to Mars class? Thanks for the info anyway.

So its the same as with titans? Mars pattern is most widely used, but there are some varients like the Lucius etc.

rob-or-ross wrote:Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

Actually, you wouldn't see the colours by virtue of the beam is moving at the speed of light, unless it was both a lance and within our spectrum, in which case it would ACTUALLY BE a flashlight.

This is clearly how light works

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why do you consider what they do sad? They are doing what they love and enjoy as a hobby just like you do what you love for a hobby.

Thanks, i'll check that newer link out!

I'm not criticising....I find it very interesting myself, as I said, and it's very impressive maths.
But i'm sorry, working out science for imaginary guns IS sad, if awesome.

And fyi, i'm absolutely NOT saying their hobby is in any way worse than mine. I play imaginary space wars with tiny toy soldiers, using the made up guns they do maths for.

Honestly, i'd say we're pretty even

Harrower wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why do you consider what they do sad? They are doing what they love and enjoy as a hobby just like you do what you love for a hobby.

Thanks, i'll check that newer link out!

I'm not criticising....I find it very interesting myself, as I said, and it's very impressive maths.
But i'm sorry, working out science for imaginary guns IS sad, if awesome.

And fyi, i'm absolutely NOT saying their hobby is in any way worse than mine. I play imaginary space wars with tiny toy soldiers, using the made up guns they do maths for.

Honestly, i'd say we're pretty even

True . These guys your reading are the survivors of the great flame wars between Trekkies and Warsies over Star Wars vs. Star Trek. It was preety sad to watch these guys invest so much effort into their hobby but the flame wars were fun to watch .

Anyway, read the link that you posted as well as the new link I posted as you need those two links and their content to understand all the situations and examples used as well as how the analyser calced the calcs. Have fun reading.

ps: They also analyze Imperial Armour over there.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Isn't the M-class Lasgun the supposed main class of Lasgun in the galaxy?

The Mars-Pattern Short Lasgun is the standard lasgun of the Imperial Guard.

This from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifiting Primer.

M-class could refer to Mars class? Thanks for the info anyway.

I have no clue what "m-class" means. I do not think it is actual 40k terminology. Differing types of weapons are called "patterns", such as Ryza Pattern Plasmagun.

GW books describe it as the "M-G pattern" or "M-Galaxy pattern" lasgun, probably referring to the Milky Way, which is the galaxy containing the Imperium.

There's also a "Mars pattern", though. No idea if they just changed the name there at some point in time (M-G could then refer to Mars-Gamma?), or if they are two different models.

Yeah-- pattern, not class. Class might refer to a non-technical term for it, but the technical term in 40k is pattern, as in, "pattern of manufacture".

im2randomghgh wrote:

rob-or-ross wrote:Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

Actually, you wouldn't see the colours by virtue of the beam is moving at the speed of light, unless it was both a lance and within our spectrum, in which case it would ACTUALLY BE a flashlight.

This is clearly how light works:

<Snip>

Sorry, are you saying that you can't see light because it moves at the speed of light?

If you look at what I wrote and you quoted you will see that I specifically mentioned red and green to illustrate my point since they are the two most commonly available laser pointer colours.
I also mentioned the projected point and not the beam.

Obviously you can't see the beam of a laser unless it is pointing directly into your eye. Unless some of that light scatters off dust or smoke particles.

Now, if that laser is made of IR or UV light then all those same things will happen but we won't see the light.

It is the same reason that IR lasers are among the most dangerous you can get because IR light doesn't stimulate the blink reflex.
If someone shines a 5mW green laser in your eye you will blink and your retina won't be damaged.
If someone does the same with an IR laser you won't blink and your retina could be burned to a crisp.



Anyway, if words lose their meaning in the imperium as easily as they do in our current world then by the 41st millennium "Lasgun" could mean literally anything.
It could be a Maser, GRaser or XRaser for all we know...

rob-or-ross wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

rob-or-ross wrote:Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

Actually, you wouldn't see the colours by virtue of the beam is moving at the speed of light, unless it was both a lance and within our spectrum, in which case it would ACTUALLY BE a flashlight.

This is clearly how light works:

<Snip>

Sorry, are you saying that you can't see light because it moves at the speed of light?

If you look at what I wrote and you quoted you will see that I specifically mentioned red and green to illustrate my point since they are the two most commonly available laser pointer colours.
I also mentioned the projected point and not the beam.

Obviously you can't see the beam of a laser unless it is pointing directly into your eye. Unless some of that light scatters off dust or smoke particles.

Now, if that laser is made of IR or UV light then all those same things will happen but we won't see the light.

It is the same reason that IR lasers are among the most dangerous you can get because IR light doesn't stimulate the blink reflex.
If someone shines a 5mW green laser in your eye you will blink and your retina won't be damaged.
If someone does the same with an IR laser you won't blink and your retina could be burned to a crisp.



Anyway, if words lose their meaning in the imperium as easily as they do in our current world then by the 41st millennium "Lasgun" could mean literally anything.
It could be a Maser, GRaser or XRaser for all we know...

On that last point, I am wondering what type of laser they would be using. COIL seems vaguely plausible. Any other theories?

im2randomghgh wrote:

rob-or-ross wrote:Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

Actually, you wouldn't see the colours by virtue of the beam is moving at the speed of light, unless it was both a lance and within our spectrum, in which case it would ACTUALLY BE a flashlight.

You wouldn't see the beam because unless you're really unlucky the laser doesn't reach your eye. Real lasers would be like laser pointers, with a single bright spot where the light originates and another spot where it hits. Unless there's smoke or something inbetween to scatter the beam you wouldn't see it. No need to bring the speed of the thing in to it.

Edit: Didn't see rob or ross's post.